The Firmino Holgate incident.

[doctor_mac]

What concerns me still is the timing of Holgate's reaction. I have not studied the incident, but I hear the suggestion that Holgate appeared calm while Firmino called him "filho de puta" but reacted strongly to something after that - when Firmino's mouth was not clearly visible behind Kenny's head. My concerns are lessened by the fact that the referee ... and other players .... showed no sign that anything significant was said.

N***** isn't a Portuguese word (nor is there an equivalent word) so it makes no sense that he throws that word out there. I think the slight delay was because it took Holgate that second to figure he had an opportunity to sling some mud and avoid getting sent off. It was a lightbulb moment.

 

[gkmacca]

I'm suspicious of any slowed down footage, because, whether it's this or some other incident such as alleged dives, the footage becomes a repository of projected interpretations that would be less likely in real time. I doubt, if Firmino didn't say anything offensive, that, in the heat of the moment, Holgate reasoned any response, either way, but if he thought he heard something offensive I'd say the proper response would be: 'WHAT did you say?' Easy for someone else to say, well, yes, but that doesn't make it wrong. As soon as you can make out, amidst all that noise, that someone is not speaking English, or you can't make it out at all, I'd think it would be prudent to question your own judgement before going nuts at the ref. But once you make the allegation, you need to prove it or deal with the consequences.

 

[Mersey86]

N***** isn't a Portuguese word (nor is there an equivalent word) so it makes no sense that he throws that word out there. I think the slight delay was because it took Holgate that second to figure he had an opportunity to sling some mud and avoid getting sent off. It was a lightbulb moment.

Yes. I'd wondered about that. Would Firmino have switched language? But I think the Spanish/Portuguese translation is well enough known, especially after Suarez. So it is plausible that Holgate would have just translated in his interpretation. Also I am wary of claims that Holgate was trying to avoid punishment. Frankly, he doesn't look like a quick thinker.

 

[Woland]

The only reasonable response is to take Holgate out into the yard and shoot him.

 

[Fabio]

She is much worse than a Toffee.
She is a Chelsea fan if I remember correctly.
I don't think he is saying that in all cases the accuser is correct.
I think he is saying that in this instance it hasn't been established and may never be if Holgate though he heard Firmino use the N word or if he simply made it all up.
He seems to be taking issue with a lot of Liverpool fans accusing him of making it up with nothing to prove whether he did or didn't

Is my point

People saying punish holgate if there's nothing to back it up are out of order.

That was my point

That's what I said

And then everyone's gone a bit mad.

 

[Woland]

I don't mean dead. I mean shoot him right in the dick. Shoot his cock and balls off then shake his hand and say we're straight now and we're prepared to forgive him.

 

[Fabio]

N***** isn't a Portuguese word (nor is there an equivalent word) so it makes no sense that he throws that word out there. I think the slight delay was because it took Holgate that second to figure he had an opportunity to sling some mud and avoid getting sent off. It was a lightbulb moment.

I doubt he knows Portuguese well enough to know that and then decides to get someone sent off

Is it not the more simple thought process that he misheard something which ends in an "ah" sound?

 

[Judge Jules]

The point isn't what Holgate does or doesn't know about the Portuguese language. The point is that there's no plausible way he can back up a claim that he "heard" anything like that, for the simple reason that Firmino didn't make any sounds which come even close to it.

 

[Woland]

Either way, if you shoot him in the balls I doubt he'd make the same mistake later.

 

[Fabio]

The point isn't what Holgate does or doesn't know about the Portuguese language. The point is that there's no plausible way he can back up a claim that he "heard" anything like that, for the simple reason that Firmino didn't make any sounds which come even close to it.

If people want to pretend this all happened over a quiet game of bridge then fine, carry on

I'm saying it's not unreasonable to think he might have misheard, and I think he's too stupid to concoct a racism story in a millisecond

But I'm probably wrong, and he's got the brains of Stephen hawking with similar playing ability

 

[Fabio]

Either way, if you shoot him in the balls I doubt he'd make the same mistake later.

To be fair, he'd have nothing to lose if he did it again

 

[Mystic]

I do think Fabio is being a bit holier thou art here, but he has a point, it's a slippery slope wishing for someone to be charged for a false accusation. If the FA can prove without doubt that this accusation was malicious then 100% he should be charged, but lets be honest, outside of an admission of guilt by Holgate thats impossible to prove. I think the reason people are so wound up and are calling for this (including myself on match day) is because outside of an obscured 3 seconds, it's clear as day that Firmino is completely innocent, and the narrative that Holgate is deflecting from his scumbag actions fits to perfectly. However his head was fully of adrenaline, the crowd was roaring, and he had players all around him talking to him, it's hardly far-fetched for the kid to have misheard something shouted at him angrily in Portugese, thats not a crime. The key thing from all this is if the FA find Firmino innocent, they're very very clear on this fact, because it's completely unfair for Firmino to be marred with this accusation if it's false, the FA needs to come out with a strong statement saying he's innocent if they find no evidence, thats more important than charging Holgate for the accusation.

Also they need to ban the cunt for endangering Firmino and the public with that cowardly push.

 

[doctor_mac]

If people want to pretend this all happened over a quiet game of bridge then fine, carry on

I'm saying it's not unreasonable to think he might have misheard, and I think he's too stupid to concoct a racism story in a millisecond

But I'm probably wrong, and he's got the brains of Stephen hawking with similar playing ability

You don't need to be Stephen Hawking to concoct a bullshit story off the cuff. It isn't exactly a fiendishly difficult one to come up with. He didn't outline A Brief History of Time- he said, "he called me a n******". I reckon any thick cunt could up with that.

 

[Fabio]

You don't need to be Stephen Hawking to concoct a bullshit story off the cuff. It isn't exactly a fiendishly difficult one to come up with. He didn't outline A Brief History of Time- he said, "he called me a n******". I reckon any thick cunt could up with that.

If it was that easy to escape a red card how come this is the (as far as I know) first time it's happened?

People seem to think I think firmino said it with some of the vitriol I've got here.

I doubt he did (even though the FA and press are focusing on what was said after puta)

My original point was you cannot punish someone making the claim because you cannot PROVE what someone THOUGHT they heard

And I'm being called holier than thou for taking the red glasses off and showing balance?

Nah

Fuck this

 

[Best Believe It]

I'm not sure people are giving Woland's proposal enough consideration here.

 

[Judge Jules]

I do think Fabio is being a bit holier thou art here, but he has a point, it's a slippery slope wishing for someone to be charged for a false accusation. If the FA can prove without doubt that this accusation was malicious then 100% he should be charged, but lets be honest, outside of an admission of guilt by Holgate thats impossible to prove. I think the reason people are so wound up and are calling for this (including myself on match day) is because outside of an obscured 3 seconds, it's clear as day that Firmino is completely innocent, and the narrative that Holgate is deflecting from his scumbag actions fits to perfectly. However his head was fully of adrenaline, the crowd was roaring, and he had players all around him talking to him, it's hardly far-fetched for the kid to have misheard something shouted at him angrily in Portugese, thats not a crime. The key thing from all this is if the FA find Firmino innocent, they're very very clear on this fact, because it's completely unfair for Firmino to be marred with this accusation if it's false, the FA needs to come out with a strong statement saying he's innocent if they find no evidence, thats more important than charging Holgate for the accusation.

Also they need to ban the cunt for endangering Firmino and the public with that cowardly push.

With respect, the bolded bit is where your first para.goes off the rails, because that's not the standard of proof the FA would be applying. The applicable standard of proof is "on the balance of probabilities" and, when you compare Holgate's (very specific) allegation with what Firmino actually said, the idea that anyone could genuinely have "mistaken" the latter for the former does not look probable at all..

 

[Mystic]

With respect, the bolded bit is where your first para.goes off the rails, because that's not the standard of proof the FA would be applying. The applicable standard of proof is "on the balance of probabilities" and, when you compare Holgate's (very specific) allegation with what Firmino actually said, the idea that anyone could genuinely have "mistaken" the latter for the former does not look probable at all..

Yeh, I understand thats the way they do things at the FA thanks to the Suarez fiasco, but I also happen to think it's complete horseshit that you can charge someone based upon your best guess or gut feeling, which is basically what the FA does.

 

[Fabio]

the former does not look probable at all..

In your opinion

 

[Insignificance]

I don't mean dead. I mean shoot him right in the dick. Shoot his cock and balls off then shake his hand and say we're straight now and we're prepared to forgive him.

That's innocent enough. Don't want uneccessary killing.

 

[dantes]

With respect, the bolded bit is where your first para.goes off the rails, because that's not the standard of proof the FA would be applying. The applicable standard of proof is "on the balance of probabilities" and, when you compare Holgate's (very specific) allegation with what Firmino actually said, the idea that anyone could genuinely have "mistaken" the latter for the former does not look probable at all..

Ahagahaha hahahaha. Take that probability x, then turn that hijo de puta sideways to get 1 - x, and that is the actual probability they will apply to ban Firmino. There's no other way about it.

 

[Mersey86]

With respect, the bolded bit is where your first para.goes off the rails, because that's not the standard of proof the FA would be applying. The applicable standard of proof is "on the balance of probabilities" and, when you compare Holgate's (very specific) allegation with what Firmino actually said, the idea that anyone could genuinely have "mistaken" the latter for the former does not look probable at all..

Unfortunately for that argument, the claim is going to be (and correctly) that the cameras do not capture Firmino's lip movement at the end of his tirade. So there is no way of proving (based on evidence we currently have) that Firmino did not say something wrong, and no way of proving that he did. Of course if somebody else close to the incident can add comments, or there is a camera angle we have not seen, then the argument swings. At the moment I think we likely have a 'not proven' and Firmino gets unfairly tainted ..... or lucky ..... based on what he actually said.

 

[Judge Jules]

Yeh, I understand thats the way they do things at the FA thanks to the Suarez fiasco, but I also happen to think it's complete horseshit that you can charge someone based upon your best guess or gut feeling, which is basically what the FA does.

That's a different point though. I agree with this post above, but the point about standard of proof refers to proving (or failing to prove) the charge after it's been brought and, as far as that goes, the "balance of probabilities" standard is the national one for civil matters like this. It isn't just the FA which uses it.

 

[Dreambeliever]

The point isn't what Holgate does or doesn't know about the Portuguese language. The point is that there's no plausible way he can back up a claim that he "heard" anything like that, for the simple reason that Firmino didn't make any sounds which come even close to it.

Have you never misheard someone when you realise what you thought you heard was nothing like what they actually said?

It's not that uncommon never mind in that atmosphere

 

[Atlas]

....
You actually took off.. The red glasses?!
What were you thinking Fabio.
You never take off the red glasses bro.

The narrative has been set don't stray from it or offer an alternative opinion again

 

[Dreambeliever]

Probably doesn't help your case but I'm 100% in Marks corner on this.

Everyone else is being obtuse

 

[doctor_mac]

Have you never misheard someone when you realise what you thought you heard was nothing like what they actually said?

It's not that uncommon never mind in that atmosphere

Yeah, but you’re scratching your head going, did I hear this cunt right. You’re not telling a third party with certainty ‘this is what he said’.

 

[Judge Jules]

Pat: I've misheard people, as we all have, but not to the extent that what I heard was "nothing like what they actually said". There's always been some resemblance.

And how would you know it's not that uncommon?

 

[doctor_mac]

By the way Fabio, I've said from the start, it is possible he misconstrued. I just think it is more likely he has been opportunistic. I don't think accusing someone of saying something like that should be taken lightly. You should be fucking certain.

 

[Athens]

This reminds me of the joke about the 12 inch pianist.

 

[gene hughes]

Go on then... I’m not googling it.