The biggest problem for Suarez was that he told the ref himself that he used the word negro
The Firmino Holgate incident.
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The biggest problem for Suarez was that he told the ref himself that he used the word negro
The law has moved on since then, see for example EBJT v FA. Now, if Firmino even uses the word to say something like "no, I didn't say negro, I said pu-", he'll be stopped right there, informed that in itself constitutes a use of the word, and he's getting banned. I'm frankly amazed people seriously think he won't be banned, and think that Holgate is the one who stands to be punished. Lol. Poor the SCM. You know nothing.
What’s the reason for the dickheads not recording the ref’s mic? So, so easy to do.
Doing that is one thing, playing the race card is very different
Not really. So living in S.E. England if I'm in a pub and someone inexplicably starts giving me dirty looks and seems to have taken a dislike to me I'm immediately thinking- it's the Irish accent. In that I'm probably usually wrong (though I have been proved right on that score). It is the immediate gut response as an Irish guy living in England. Now, were I bit of a cunt I could use that in a mischievous way, and do it without thinking about it. So it goes.
The referee is wearing a microphone and is less than a couple of feet away from Firmino's mouth. That should be pretty conclusive if it was on. However the fact the referee didn't send him off, after consulting with the 4th official, likely shows it was inconclusive, or off.
If the system is the same now as with Suarez, then if Firmino is charged he will 99% be found guilty and banned.
The FA take over the charge, assume Holgate is telling the truth and run the whole conduct of the case. It then goes before an "independent" barrister who is hand picked by the FA. Evra was coached on what to say at interviews and strangely enough was found to be a more credible witness even though he changed his story several times.
So if the FA decide to charge Firmino tomorrow, we will have to plan for a lengthy absence from the side because his chances of acquittal are slim to none.
The FA take over the charge, assume Holgate is telling the truth and run the whole conduct of the case. It then goes before an "independent" barrister who is hand picked by the FA. Evra was coached on what to say at interviews and strangely enough was found to be a more credible witness even though he changed his story several times.
So if the FA decide to charge Firmino tomorrow, we will have to plan for a lengthy absence from the side because his chances of acquittal are slim to none.
Given that he was stood between them, surely that has to be the end of it...
Obviously. He would have been sent off if he did hear anything
But to protect himself from being accused of not taking allegations seriously he had a word with the 4th official.
Yeah, he would have sent him off if he heard anything. Thats pretty obvious
It's not, because the problem is that cunt Holgate has made a complaint in which he says he heard it, and the referee's report confirms that this is what Holgate told him at the time. So it's going before an independent panel now, and then the rest is history.
Doesn't the FA have to charge him with something before it goes to a hearing?
It's interesting how many posters in this thread are dismissing out of hand the possibility that Firmino could be guilty. Even going as far to say that Holgate has fabricated the entire story to avoid a booking. Or laughably assuming that because their skin tone is vaguely similar, they couldn't possibly racially abuse each other. And all this based on very limited footage, in which Firmino is facing away from the camera at the vital moment. People have said that they can lip read what was said, but I have to assume that they are referring to the words Firmino shouted has he ran towards Holgate, when his mouth was visible to camera. Which clearly didn't bother Holgate, because he didn't become incensed until later in the exchange, at which point Firmino was still talking but no longer facing the camera. I have yet to see any footage which conclusively covers the moment that the alleged language was used.
Now, I would like to think that Firmino is innocent as much as anyone, but as we should all be well aware - footballers are mostly bellends, irrespective of who they play for. We shouldn't let club politics cloud our judgement here. If Firmino is guilty, then he should be punished. And I would assume that anybody opposed to racism would have more interest in the truth than on minimising a potential ban for our player.
Do I have any confidence that the FA will carry out the investigation competently (or indeed fairly)? No. In fact, I think there's every chance that the investigation will be prejudiced against the non-white foreigner, being as it is a corrupt organisation run largely by white men. But it might be worth waiting a little while to see whether any more concrete information emerges before excusing the dismissing the accusation and going all out to discredit the (alleged) victim. Because however unlikely it may seem, if it emerges that Firmino did use racist language, then some contributors here might end up feeling a little embarrassed, if not a little ashamed.
Now, I would like to think that Firmino is innocent as much as anyone, but as we should all be well aware - footballers are mostly bellends, irrespective of who they play for. We shouldn't let club politics cloud our judgement here. If Firmino is guilty, then he should be punished. And I would assume that anybody opposed to racism would have more interest in the truth than on minimising a potential ban for our player.
Do I have any confidence that the FA will carry out the investigation competently (or indeed fairly)? No. In fact, I think there's every chance that the investigation will be prejudiced against the non-white foreigner, being as it is a corrupt organisation run largely by white men. But it might be worth waiting a little while to see whether any more concrete information emerges before excusing the dismissing the accusation and going all out to discredit the (alleged) victim. Because however unlikely it may seem, if it emerges that Firmino did use racist language, then some contributors here might end up feeling a little embarrassed, if not a little ashamed.
If he said it, then I'd expect that one out of the group of people around them, including the ref, would have heard something. The word 'n*****" is not a Portuguese term, so makes no sense. The whole thing is so massively implausible it is hardily worth entertaining. I won't be embarrassed or ashamed, just absolutely shocked that something so unlikely transpired that Firmino managed to scream one of the most taboo words in the English language (a language he wasn't speaking at the time) in the face of an opponent without a referee and a gang of bitters hearing it. It was a fucking miracle!
But go on Del, you go ahead.
But go on Del, you go ahead.
You are quite right but nothing has emerged yet to prove that Firmino used racist language and all the evidence presently available confirms that no-one else heard anything even though the referee and others were even closer to Firmino than his accuser. Maybe more evidence will emerge but there's nothing out there at the moment, so most of us are more concerned that Firmino will be railroaded through a lack of evidence than coming to the conclusion he is guilty.
You missed the part where he is telling the referee after putting his hands on him. The referee must have told him he didn't hear it. Then Holgate has a sheepish expression on his face and says "I thought I heard him say N". That's him acting like the toddler being caught out chatting shit, getting banged, and trying to limit the damage. If he had misheard and was sincere, he'd never utter the words I thought I heard it, he'd instead looked confused and ask the referee if he was fucking deaf, you're stood right there, he said it to your face, what the fuck man. But that's not what we have. We have a pathetic cunt of a human trying to lie his way out of trouble and that's it.
You know that charge by heart now. It'll go something like this....
[bcolor=transparent]The [/bcolor][bcolor=transparent]charge [/bcolor][bcolor=transparent]brought is that Mr [/bcolor][bcolor=transparent]Firmino [/bcolor][bcolor=transparent]used abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour towards Mr Holgate contrary to [/bcolor][bcolor=transparent]Rule E3[/bcolor][bcolor=transparent](1), and that this breach of [/bcolor][bcolor=transparent]Rule E3[/bcolor][bcolor=transparent](1) included a reference to Mr Holgate's ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race within the meaning of [/bcolor][bcolor=transparent]Rule E3([/bcolor][bcolor=transparent]2) ("the [/bcolor][bcolor=transparent]Charge[/bcolor][bcolor=transparent]").[/bcolor]
Let's also not forget that Holgate has claimed he said it twice. So was that a repetition in the 3 secs Firmino's face is not visible ? Or were there two occasions ?
One thing I keep thinking of is Maddock's claim that the Everton backroom staff advised Holgate at HT that he was mistaken. This may explain why the second half didn't see any real malice in the how the Everton players treated Firmino.
So we are left with, maybe, Holgate feeling he has no option but to stick to his claim and not admit he may have misheard or he truly believes he did and refuses to accept other explanations (or he feels he needs to adhere to his cover story - I think this the most unlikely though).
One thing I keep thinking of is Maddock's claim that the Everton backroom staff advised Holgate at HT that he was mistaken. This may explain why the second half didn't see any real malice in the how the Everton players treated Firmino.
So we are left with, maybe, Holgate feeling he has no option but to stick to his claim and not admit he may have misheard or he truly believes he did and refuses to accept other explanations (or he feels he needs to adhere to his cover story - I think this the most unlikely though).
I suspect Ferguson made a call to Fat Sam during the second half advising him on the provcedures.
Non-native English speakers can easily default to their native language at moments of stress. My Maltese dad did that all the time, and he'd been able to speak English (among other languages) all his life.
It's a sad time when a violent assault with clear intent to injure kicks up less fuss than whether a word - as unacceptable as it is - was thought to have been said. Would Holgate and the FA preferred a punch in the face? I have no idea if Firmino said the word or not, if he did he's clearly out of order, but if someone had just assaulted me I'm guessing there would be a few choice words.
Indeed. Just not racist ones.
Just for academic argument's sake, could Firmino claim the assault on him was racist? I don't recall Holgate pushing anyone else with violent intent into a wall, and Firmino's skin color is different than Holgate's.
I speak pretty good Japanese and sometimes in a fit of road rage I would sometimes use the expletive バカ (Baka) That just means 'Idiot' or 'Stupid' - What I always like about that is that's pretty much the only swear word in Japanese. @juniormember will probably argue that but I still think that's quite sweet 🙂
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