If he used the "n words" - negro or negrito - then I'm going to burn my "Bobby Is Innocent" T-shirt in front of a cross. Which will also be burning, because of all the bad racists in Liverpool.
The Firmino Holgate incident.
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If he used the "n words" - negro or negrito - then I'm going to burn my "Bobby Is Innocent" T-shirt in front of a cross. Which will also be burning, because of all the bad racists in Liverpool.
The football world is now a profoundly Hobbesian world, in which real offences happen, but also players commonly feign injury, dive, hold their faces when their ankles have been tapped, claim they've been elbowed when they haven't, etc etc. For god's sake, many of them can't even be trusted to be honest when claiming a throw-in is theirs. So it's really vital, albeit really difficult, that any claim is assessed rigorously, with a proper awareness both of players' propensity for simulation and, to put it crudely, lying, and the continuing instances of genuine assault, and racial and sexual insult and bigotry. What would be really terrible is either for a convincing claim to be dismissed, or a patently implausible one to be upheld on the grounds that it would 'help' the push to combat racism or sexism. There's a wrong here, by one party or the other, and the FA need to enter into the investigation with a scrupulous awareness of those two options, not just the one.
There are many, many more my friend 🙂
But the concept of ‘swear word’ doesn’t really exist here, in the sense of ‘adults can use them but not the kids’ kind of way, which is the western swear word culture. Kids to adults all use the same naughty words without anyone getting a shock.
Just like in Ireland, then
The ref heard nothing Even if Firmino was screaming. The 4th ref who can hear the refs mic (?) Didn't hear it as he otherwise would have told so. None of the players around them reacted at all in a manner to suggest they heard anything. So fair play to FA if they heard it.
You're right. The scenario you've constructed is pretty implausible. However, I would've thought it pretty obvious that any racist word he might have used would be a derivative of the word you mention, in his own language. Just as it was with Suarez. And in a heated moment like that, when the player's are in each others' faces and the crowd is stirred up into a frenzy, I don't think it's so absurd to suggest that it might have gone unheard by those who weren't on the receiving end. You only have to read Brewster's accounts of racist abuse to know that it's still much more common than we think, and that the perpetrators usually get away with it. And it's easy to see why, isn't it?
It seems more implausible to me that a player would invent a story of racist abuse (complete with faux outrage), knowing the media furore and FA investigation that would follow, just to escape a booking. The more likely scenario in my eyes is that given the heat of the moment and the deafening crowd noise, and of course not being a Portuguese speaker, Holgate misheard something Firmino said. I hope you're right and that Holgate is just a massive twat. But some of the gleeful efforts to trivialise the issue and discredit the accuser, would not look out of place in an FA boardroom.
You have a Bobby shirt ?
He never scored in it
With grim inevitability that chronically opportunistic and odious toad Lord Ouseley has stuck his snout into the affair, clearly pissed off his organisation is currently stuck on the sidelines but still champing at the bit to prejudge matters, calling on Firmino to 'admit his guilt' if he is guilty, whilst saying nothing about his new hero Holgate possibly 'owning up':
Ouseley told The Times: “If Firmino did say something racially offensive in the heat of the moment it would be better for all concerned, including himself, if he accepts that and then he can learn from a mistake.
“It will show to the next generation, who mimic what these top players do, that you can make mistakes and then put them right.
“We are even-handed in this and we are saying we are here if required. It may well be the player has wrongly been alleged to have committed an act of abuse.
“We encourage people to own up to what they have done, we believe that’s the easiest way forward.
“In the Suárez case he told us I don’t know how many times he was innocent and John Terry the same. Trevor Sinclair, however, has held up his hands and admitted his guilt.”
Ouseley added: “We are not involved in this latest investigation but we have been in touch with both clubs and the players offering any support to either party. We want to offer our services if players have been abused, or do not feel that they are getting the right treatment.”
It's as if someone else shoehorned-in the 'It may well be the player has wrongly been alleged' line, because it sticks out like a sore thumb.
Ouseley told The Times: “If Firmino did say something racially offensive in the heat of the moment it would be better for all concerned, including himself, if he accepts that and then he can learn from a mistake.
“It will show to the next generation, who mimic what these top players do, that you can make mistakes and then put them right.
“We are even-handed in this and we are saying we are here if required. It may well be the player has wrongly been alleged to have committed an act of abuse.
“We encourage people to own up to what they have done, we believe that’s the easiest way forward.
“In the Suárez case he told us I don’t know how many times he was innocent and John Terry the same. Trevor Sinclair, however, has held up his hands and admitted his guilt.”
Ouseley added: “We are not involved in this latest investigation but we have been in touch with both clubs and the players offering any support to either party. We want to offer our services if players have been abused, or do not feel that they are getting the right treatment.”
It's as if someone else shoehorned-in the 'It may well be the player has wrongly been alleged' line, because it sticks out like a sore thumb.
Looking at the pictures. Holgate reacted to something that was said after the initial "Puta" bit. I've looked at every angle slowed down and Kenny's head blocks the moment the alleged word was said. There are 3 people close enough to validate Holgate's story though. The ref, Kenny and Lallana.
The ref actually turns away at that moment, so if Firmino "mimed" the word, he wouldn't have seen it or heard it.
Similarly, Kenny appears to look away too at the crucial moment and his reaction isn't one of someone who's heard the word, otherwise he'd have been angry like Holgate.
Lallana, however, could have been looking at Bobby F the moment he spoke (it's unclear, as the ref's head is in the way). And so if anyone (else) would know what was said, it would be him.
I can't see how the FA can prove anything. Firmino would literally have to stitch himself up to be banned.
The ref actually turns away at that moment, so if Firmino "mimed" the word, he wouldn't have seen it or heard it.
Similarly, Kenny appears to look away too at the crucial moment and his reaction isn't one of someone who's heard the word, otherwise he'd have been angry like Holgate.
Lallana, however, could have been looking at Bobby F the moment he spoke (it's unclear, as the ref's head is in the way). And so if anyone (else) would know what was said, it would be him.
I can't see how the FA can prove anything. Firmino would literally have to stitch himself up to be banned.
Or they take Holgate's word over Firmino's, and considering they took the word of one of the biggest scumbags in football, Patrice Evra, as gospel, i'm quite worried they might do that again here.
Didn't Suarez actually stitch himself up? He didn't dispute the fact he used the word "negrito" or something like that.. but argued he said it in an endearing manner, that in Uruguay it's commonly used (and that he had a black Grandad or something).
Had he simply denied it, it would have been difficult to prove.
Ultimately, Suarez deserved his ban. For racist language, and stupidity.
To be honest, I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't see hypocrisy there.
Black people own the word. The only thing we own. And we say it to each other, frequently, and as a term of jest/endearment.
Suarez saying it to Evra, wasn't said in jest or as a way of bonding. It was said to upset him. And it worked. Evra lost his head that day.
Black people own the word. The only thing we own. And we say it to each other, frequently, and as a term of jest/endearment.
Suarez saying it to Evra, wasn't said in jest or as a way of bonding. It was said to upset him. And it worked. Evra lost his head that day.
There is (obviously) a world of difference between a black person using the word colloquially and a white person using the word abusively.
The problem when self-appointed guardians like Ouseley get involved, speaking with a supposedly apodictic moral authority, is that they undermine both the important cause they exploit and the incident they attempt to control. Look at his attempt to make Trevor Sinclair seem like some kind of progressive for admitting his own error. Here's what happened to Sinclair:
Sinclair was arrested after being found to be more than twice the legal drink-drive limit, Blackpool magistrates court heard. Sinclair asked the arresting officer if he was being arrested because he was black, accused the police of racism and urinated in a police car. He continued making racist comments after he was taken to the cells at Blackpool police station.
Sinclair had no choice but to 'own up' to the bleeding obvious. It wasn't the role model-like behaviour suggested by the chronically virtue-signalling Ouseley. Keep these chancers well away from these cases, and install some serious-minded individuals to lead these bodies, rather than political opportunists.
Sinclair was arrested after being found to be more than twice the legal drink-drive limit, Blackpool magistrates court heard. Sinclair asked the arresting officer if he was being arrested because he was black, accused the police of racism and urinated in a police car. He continued making racist comments after he was taken to the cells at Blackpool police station.
Sinclair had no choice but to 'own up' to the bleeding obvious. It wasn't the role model-like behaviour suggested by the chronically virtue-signalling Ouseley. Keep these chancers well away from these cases, and install some serious-minded individuals to lead these bodies, rather than political opportunists.
So what's the approved opinion on Trevor Sinclair accusing the police of being racist by stopping the drunk cunt in his car, and then being "obnoxious, abusive and racist" himself when arrested.
Can he use racist language against white officers? Is "white cunt" racist?
The problem with that argument is that Evra made no such distinction in his evidence to the disciplinary panel. He said that he was upset by the word and - this is the crucial bit - that he himself would never use it.
I'm not black but I am Jewish by race, I've been on the receiving end of anti-semitism in my time and I wouldn't dream of trying to tell non-Jewish people that it wasn't OK for them to use any vocabulary I'm willing to use myself. Trying to preserve any word or words for the exclusive use of one community or another seems a very strange way of trying to overcome prejudice.
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I'm not saying it's right.. but it's the way it is. I'm not sure why anyone non-black would want to use the word or feel it's somehow unfair that a black person can use it and they can't. Life is unfair. As black people find out when it comes to opportunities elsewhere. That word is the one of the few privileges we get, seemingly.
Believe or not, black people also distinguish between the word "nigga" (as in "My nigga".. and the term "Nigg-er" which is a racist and often used by non-black)
Strange. But it's the way black people have chosen to overcome the word. By owning it.
In regards to the Evra case, I'm not really aware of the defence he made as to why Suarez shouldn't have said it. But either way, even if he was feigning being offended (no doubt, Fergie influenced), Suarez should NOT have said the word and it did upset him during the game. That much we can all agree on.
My problem with the approach you set out isn't that I wish I could use the word. It's that, if we're going to have rules in this respect, they need to apply to everyone equally OR all they're doing is perpetuating discrimination - and, in the process, giving comfort to the real racists who would love to portray all anti-racism as extremist nonsense on principle.
Neither Suarez nor Evra covered himself in glory over that incident. Nor did the FA, whose grotesque parody of a disciplinary process sums up that whole incompetent vipers' nest of an organisation.
Neither Suarez nor Evra covered himself in glory over that incident. Nor did the FA, whose grotesque parody of a disciplinary process sums up that whole incompetent vipers' nest of an organisation.
The minority of blacks use it. Majority choose to not be associated with it. Definitely more an american thing.
Approved? Lmao.
I'm not an (approved) spokesperson for the black community, nor do black people have a group opinion on all matters.
That's like me asking you what's the approved Liverpool opinion Suarez using racist language?
As for your question, I really haven't followed the Sinclair case. But clearly he's been a massive bellend (and not just in punditry). Firstly, for being drunk and driving, and then for abusing police offers in the process, who probably saved his/someone else's life. He should be punished accordingly. And believe it or not, I don't really drink, so I can't really speak from experience to know whether what you say when you're drunk is actually how you are or feel.
For me personally, I don't like when I see black people "pulling the race card" if they've done wrong. Having said that, nor do I like the term "race card" either (probably made up by those who want to be racist but feel restricted).
Ultimately, if you've done wrong, you deserve punishment, whatever your race. If you've used racist language, it doesn't mean you're a racist, but it does mean you've used racist language which is wrong, and again, deserves punishment.
Personally, I think people are far too sensitive when colour is used (especially as an adjective). A "black cunt".. might actually be a cunt who happens to be black. The colour is used as an adjective not as a sweeping statement. That alone, is not racist in my opinion. It would be racist if it's followed by a torrent of abuse which starts off with "you know what I hate about you people...".
However, society and the PC brigade means any mention of colour, even as an adjectives, nowadays qualifies you as a racist . The black (and in my opinion, jewish especially) community seems to get privilege in the outrage stakes when colour is used to describe a "cunt" or "bastard" coming from their community. Ironically, I find that it's often white people who crucify the said perpertrator, more so than the black/jewish community themselves, who just go along with it.
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Agreed. I choose not to use it in my daily life. Def an American thing.
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There is no punishment or punisher left in the world. The reaction is now a bunch of cunts virtue signalling about another cunt's vocabulary. There's a reason the legal process ends up with you behind bars being bummed on a daily basis. It's a just outcome and serves as a deterrent. The liberals have forgotten their legal rights, and now exact their punishment with a tweet. There's only one direction the instances of racism will head with such weakness. Ditto for these Hollywood abuse victims.
There you go, that's what your idea of punishment has resulted in.
I agree, but many black americans are uneducated and ignorant and don't hold themselves to a higher standard, when it comes to language. UK Brits are much better in that regards.
I see in America though, there is "Woke" movement going on, where black people refer to each other as "Kings" and "Queens", as they attempt to rid themselves of the slave "nigger" mindset. The one which perpuates the discrimination you talk about.
Given a choice, I prefer this approach. As it would leave no doubt to everyone, that the term "Nigger/Nigga" is unacceptable.. to everyone. Blacks included.
Dantes.. i've been reading this forum for over 10 years.. you crack me up at times.. but I still don't understand you.
LOL at the bits in bold.
Now that you pointed it out, I've no idea why I used that phrase. I was referring to someone who rather than tweets their offence, uses a wire, gathers evidence, then pursues an effective punishment.
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