The Firmino Holgate incident.

[Athens]

The non-existent race thing will overshadow the actual shove in the FA's eyes. Actually, that already seems to be the case judging by a lot of the media reaction. I don't think Holgate will get charged.

It seems that words speak louder than actions in this case. The next time one of our players is in a spot of bother, they should just say "He called me a pikey* bastard!" and they will get away with the nasty challenge.

*Or whatever slur is appropriate.

 

[Ijg]

Fuck the FA.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Zero chance anything happens

 

[Jack D Rips]

Let's hope we get something better than a back street ambulance chaser to represent us this time.

 

[Insignificance]

The ref stand between them. If he pleads he heard no abuse the fucking arsehole has no case.

 

[FoxForceFive]

The ref stand between them. If he pleads he heard no abuse the fucking arsehole has no case.

The ref clearly had no fucking clue what was said cos I highly doubt he speaks Portuguese, so we'll have the whole lip reader bollocks again.

Worked though, cos he didn't send the cunt Holgate off.

Had Firmino laid in the stands holding his leg it'd have been a different matter.

 

[darkstarexodus]

You're not fooling anyone Sammy lad!

Sammy had a wee bet on us for sure. Had to act upset but he made five figures on Virgil's goal for deffo.

 

[StevieM]

Here's what'll happen...

Holgate won't be charged, instead he'll be commended and given a special award by the FA for his stunning work his pre-emptive strike for justice against abuse in a foreign language that can be considered racist because it's racist to insult an Englishman in a language other than English.

The FA will ban Firmino from playing football for the next 10 years for abusing an English player in a language other than English.

The FA will extend Firmino's ban by a further 10 years for simulation - for his dive into the crowd.

The FA will extend Firmino's ban for another 10 years for leaving the field of play without permission.

The FA ban Firmino and at least 3 generations of his offspring from ever playing football after receiving numerous reports of Firmino using a foreign language on the field against English players - these are construed as potential racist slurs on the basis that the English player didn't understand what Firmino was saying.

In a last ditch appeal, Liverpool ask Kenny Dalglish to make a statement on behalf of the club and players.

The FA, unable to understand a word Dalglish says, ban Liverpool FC from all football activities forever for wilfully encouraging conversing in languages that are non English.

Liverpool manager, Jurgen Klopp is institutionalised after "losing his shit" and killing 15 journalists with his bare hands.

Jamie Carragher & Steven Gerrard are arrested and sentenced to death for perverting the English accent.

 

[Insignificance]

The ref clearly had no fucking clue what was said cos I highly doubt he speaks Portuguese, so we'll have the whole lip reader bollocks again.

Worked though, cos he didn't send the cunt Holgate off.

Had Firmino laid in the stands holding his leg it'd have been a different matter.

Even the stupidest of people would understand the N word in all different varieties. It is not like the two players were isolated and Firmino whispered at him.

 

[Oncy]

Here's what'll happen...

Holgate won't be charged, instead he'll be commended and given a special award by the FA for his stunning work his pre-emptive strike for justice against abuse in a foreign language that can be considered racist because it's racist to insult an Englishman in a language other than English.

The FA will ban Firmino from playing football for the next 10 years for abusing an English player in a language other than English.

The FA will extend Firmino's ban by a further 10 years for simulation - for his dive into the crowd.

The FA will extend Firmino's ban for another 10 years for leaving the field of play without permission.

The FA ban Firmino and at least 3 generations of his offspring from ever playing football after receiving numerous reports of Firmino using a foreign language on the field against English players - these are construed as potential racist slurs on the basis that the English player didn't understand what Firmino was saying.

In a last ditch appeal, Liverpool ask Kenny Dalglish to make a statement on behalf of the club and players.

The FA, unable to understand a word Dalglish says, ban Liverpool FC from all football activities forever for wilfully encouraging conversing in languages that are non English.

Liverpool manager, Jurgen Klopp is institutionalised after "losing his shit" and killing 15 journalists with his bare hands.

Jamie Carragher & Steven Gerrard are arrested and sentenced to death for perverting the English accent.

Why bother typing all that

 

[dantes]

This is a balance of probabilities thing, they don't need to conclusively prove beyond doubt that he said it. The lip reading evidence will be inconclusive, other than something insulting was said in a highly aggressive way. At the same time, the bald cunt referee's report will be irrefutable that the son of a fuckin bitch played the race card on the spot. So on the balance of probabilities, the FA will have no explanation that they deem more likely than him being racially abused, because why else would he report it. Banned. Thank you come again.

 

[dantes]

Even the stupidest of people would understand the N word in all different varieties. It is not like the two players were isolated and Firmino whispered at him.

Precisely. So the FA will therefore place more weight upon his accusation being reliable. The truth is that cunt stood there for a couple of seconds, decided to play the N card to avoid the red card, and that's it. Hijo de puta. But that argument is next to impossible to make in a legal way, and the FA would never believe it anyway. So what remains is that Firmino is a racist.

The only way out of this is to make sure Colgate doesn't turn up to the hearing to give evidence. That'd be what I'd be working on if I was the club's lawyer.

 

[gkmacca]

And if you say or write an allegation, based on misunderstanding, bad research or clumsy reasoning, it's unlikely to excuse you from a law suit just because you claim it was some kind of 'mistake' - the infantile culture we've come to accept, whereby anyone can make any scattershot allegation, and anyone else who criticises the false claims is some kind of enemy of 'the cause,' has gone way too far. If someone labels someone else racist, 'mishearing' is no basis to completely excuse them. Firminho now faces weeks or even months, knowing how slowly the FA move, of abuse, speculation and condemnation by the media, social media and opposition fans, leaving him, if proven innocent, with a mass of defamatory cuttings and a reputation worse than it was before. Some laws are there to make you think before you speak or write, and they're actually for both parties benefit, not one or the other, and it's pretty sad and depressing on here that some choose to dismiss them. Can you hear that?

 

[dantes]

And if you say or write an allegation, based on misunderstanding, bad research or clumsy reasoning, it's unlikely to excuse you from a law suit just because you claim it was some kind of 'mistake' - the infantile culture we've come to accept, whereby anyone can make any scattershot allegation, and anyone else who criticises the false claims is some kind of enemy of 'the cause,' has gone way too far. If someone labels someone else racist, 'mishearing' is no basis to completely excuse them. Firminho now faces weeks or even months, knowing how slowly the FA move, of abuse, speculation and condemnation by the media, social media and opposition fans, leaving him, if proven innocent, with a mass of defamatory cuttings and a reputation worse than it was before. Some laws are there to make you think before you speak or write, and they're actually for both parties benefit, not one or the other, and it's pretty sad and depressing on here that some choose to dismiss them. Can you hear that?

This principle is applicable here, because they're both on the same level in the food chain. It'd also be applicable when ordinary citizens accuse other citizens of rape. But when the accused person is in an elevated position with greater financial resources than the victim, then the court should be slow to allow counter claims of defamation or harassment for obvious reasons.

 

[redblack7]

I hear you.There is something very 19th Century about the perception of foreign languages in England.It was clear what he said on the first live slow mo replay of Firmino's angry face and there was no need for any of this nonsense.If it had happened to Fatboy for example and he'd done his ususl fucking twat mouth off the ref would have been saying easy Wayne easy I" m gonna book him.What Firmino has been accused of is nonsense for all to see,it didn' t happen behind closed doors.None of this should be happening after a quick listen to a replay of the refs mike which must have picked up the whole thing-or don't we have translators in the UK?

 

[Fabio]

And if you say or write an allegation, based on misunderstanding, bad research or clumsy reasoning, it's unlikely to excuse you from a law suit just because you claim it was some kind of 'mistake' - the infantile culture we've come to accept, whereby anyone can make any scattershot allegation, and anyone else who criticises the false claims is some kind of enemy of 'the cause,' has gone way too far. If someone labels someone else racist, 'mishearing' is no basis to completely excuse them. Firminho now faces weeks or even months, knowing how slowly the FA move, of abuse, speculation and condemnation by the media, social media and opposition fans, leaving him, if proven innocent, with a mass of defamatory cuttings and a reputation worse than it was before. Some laws are there to make you think before you speak or write, and they're actually for both parties benefit, not one or the other, and it's pretty sad and depressing on here that some choose to dismiss them. Can you hear that?

Lets say He accuses him because he believed he said it, I honestly don't get why youre going on some dramatic diatribe

You said my comment about Brewster was wrong because in some of the unproven allegations his teammates heard it.

What if Rooney comes out and says he heard it?

Also with Brewster, not every allegation was heard by others

You seem so myopic on this, and I don't get how it's wrong to say making a villain out of the "victim"( which he in in the context of the case) could stop other people coming forward in the future.

Let's take this to a legal extreme. Ched Evans is now acquitted; should his accuser get time in prison or have her face plastered everywhere as a liar?

No, because she believes she was raped

 

[Fabio]

I hear you.There is something very 19th Century about the perception of foreign languages in England.It was clear what he said on the first live slow mo replay of Firmino's angry face and there was no need for any of this nonsense.If it had happened to Fatboy for example and he'd done his ususl fucking twat mouth off the ref would have been saying easy Wayne easy I" m gonna book him.

Which I agree with. Football more than any other industry is a multi national industry, where you could encounter 5 different languages in a 90 minute period

Referees should surely at least have a basic knowledge of some of the more popular ones...as optimistic as that might be

 

[Fabio]

God for fucking bid someone misheard something in the heat of the moment

 

[Piedro]

I don’t know why you bother Mark. When it comes to anything to do with Everton, you’ll always be wrong. The hatred runs deep in this one.

 

[Fabio]

I don’t know why you bother Mark. When it comes to anything to do with Everton, you’ll always be wrong. The hatred runs deep in this one.

I Didn't Think I Was saying anything controversial. Live and learn

 

[manwithnoname]

Why bother typing all that

I've noticed Oncey has, as kids said those days, 'zero chill' recently

 

[Piedro]

I Didn't Think I Was saying anything controversial. Live and learn

You aren’t. But I don’t hate Everton as much as most, how can I when all my best mates are blues and a lot of the family? They aren’t wankers though I suppose so it helps. Well, apart from Geoff.

Anyway, give it up.

 

[Atlas]

Wasn't there a post a while back where someone (maybe woland??) said they called their partners nickname in a weird accent and a black friend was like wth did you just say?
As in he thought said poster called him something racist.

 

[Judge Jules]

Lets say He accuses him because he believed he said it, I honestly don't get why youre going on some dramatic diatribe

You said my comment about Brewster was wrong because in some of the unproven allegations his teammates heard it.

What if Rooney comes out and says he heard it?

Also with Brewster, not every allegation was heard by others

You seem so myopic on this, and I don't get how it's wrong to say making a villain out of the "victim"( which he in in the context of the case) could stop other people coming forward in the future.

Let's take this to a legal extreme. Ched Evans is now acquitted; should his accuser get time in prison or have her face plastered everywhere as a liar?

No, because she believes she was raped

With respect there's a serious mistaken assumption behind what you say, namely that all such incidents are identical in nature. They're not. There is a difference between (a) honest mistakes and (b) lies, and any respectable enquiry process needs to distinguish between the two, as the court did in the Ched Evans case. What macca and I take issue with is your assumption that all accusations of racism are made in good faith. The difference between what Firmino said - confirmed, yet again, by that lip-reader above - and what Holgate alleges he "heard" is so huge that any enquiry worth its salt should now consider whether Holgate was, basically, lying through his teeth, and he should be hauled over the coals if he was. Anything less, as well as being totally unfair on Firmino, will do massively more harm than good to the cause of anti-racism.

 

[HC]

The ref clearly had no fucking clue what was said cos I highly doubt he speaks Portuguese, so we'll have the whole lip reader bollocks again.

Worked though, cos he didn't send the cunt Holgate off.

Had Firmino laid in the stands holding his leg it'd have been a different matter.

100% this.

 

[Brizzle]

In Fabio's defence, if I recall correctly, his missus is a toffee. If so - he's probably had to assume a good middleground of agreement on the incident to avoid household conflicts!

I do agree with the counter argument though, that the growing default of 'the accuser is correct' is dangerous territory and to turn Fabio's quote back on itself that is what will "set the cause back years"

 

[the count]

In Fabio's defence, if I recall correctly, his missus is a toffee. If so - he's probably had to assume a good middleground of agreement on the incident to avoid household conflicts!

I do agree with the counter argument though, that the growing default of 'the accuser is correct' is dangerous territory and to turn Fabio's quote back on itself that is what will "set the cause back years"

She is much worse than a Toffee.
She is a Chelsea fan if I remember correctly.
I don't think he is saying that in all cases the accuser is correct.
I think he is saying that in this instance it hasn't been established and may never be if Holgate though he heard Firmino use the N word or if he simply made it all up.
He seems to be taking issue with a lot of Liverpool fans accusing him of making it up with nothing to prove whether he did or didn't

 

[Woland]

I think she just says what she wants you to hear.

 

[Windom Earle]

Holgate should be in hot water here regardless of any allegations. Not only was his push on Firmino very reckless, but he then put his hands on the referee (which seems to have been glossed over a bit).

 

[Mersey86]

The difference between what Firmino said - confirmed, yet again, by that lip-reader above - and what Holgate alleges he "heard" is so huge that any enquiry worth its salt should now consider whether Holgate was, basically, lying through his teeth, and he should be hauled over the coals if he was. Anything less, as well as being totally unfair on Firmino, will do massively more harm than good to the cause of anti-racism.

What concerns me still is the timing of Holgate's reaction. I have not studied the incident, but I hear the suggestion that Holgate appeared calm while Firmino called him "filho de puta" but reacted strongly to something after that - when Firmino's mouth was not clearly visible behind Kenny's head. My concerns are lessened by the fact that the referee ... and other players .... showed no sign that anything significant was said.