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The Egyptian King

People said the same when Salah signed his last contract 3yrs ago and Diaz is still on 60k.
And Yet Gravy signed from Bayern on 150K I think as a 21yr old.
There are number of variables. Just because Salah or Virgil get a pay raise, the tea lady isn't going to put in a request for another 10%. Simply doesn't work that way at LFC. This isn't United.
 
Mo is already paid top whack and is on double what Gakpo and Jota get. Currently he’s on 6x what Diaz gets! However, I’d guess the issue is more about length of contract. If Mo was asking for a 2 year extension on the same terms I doubt there’d be a problem. Even a modest hike. I’m guessing the wish from Mo’s side is 4 or more years at a higher income not aligned to performance. I’d imagine the club wants to protect itself by offering a shorter contract with reward tied to performance
Give it to him. He’s worth every penny on and off the pitch. He is the EPL now.
 
Mo should take what he's given now, we all know he won't get any goals for next 5 months based on his typical drop off 🙂 Hey may have less to bargain with once that happens.
 
I dont think anyone's in a position to say x gets this therefore i deserve that, and expect that makes any difference.

Its what other clubs will pay them that sets the market, not what their team mates get.
Have you ever managed a team where one high performer gets a pay rise? It doesn’t matter what others would pay. The sense of entitlement and fairness can be huge especially in a team environment where nobody can be successful on their own.
 
Just out of interest, since Mo got his last big contract renewal in 2022 (?), how many pay rises have we actually given out? I don't remember many if any.
 
Mo should take what he's given now, we all know he won't get any goals for next 5 months based on his typical drop off 🙂 Hey may have less to bargain with once that happens.
There is a tiny part of me that worries his form will drop once he signs so the only potential silver lining I see in him not signing is guiding us to the quad.
 
There is a tiny part of me that worries his form will drop once he signs so the only potential silver lining I see in him not signing is guiding us to the quad.
Same. I wouldn't be bitter if Mo chooses leave and we have made our best attempt at market value offer, he will have an amazing send off and worthy one.
if it's purely based on money then I would assume maybe someone will beat us only by 20% top by us but I doubt it would be enough to move his family and love he has here. If I was to move for a new job, would want at least 30% for the hassle...
 
Same. I wouldn't be bitter if Mo chooses leave and we have made our best attempt at market value offer, he will have an amazing send off and worthy one.
if it's purely based on money then I would assume maybe someone will beat us only by 20% top by us but I doubt it would be enough to move his family and love he has here. If I was to move for a new job, would want at least 30% for the hassle...
I think he will stay but someone can blow us out of the water financially with a signing on bonus.
 
I forget who it was I was watching today (a pundit on one of the main Sky/BBC/ESPN shows) who is supposedly an ITK (via his 'contacts' the female host said). He said that without mentioning exact numbers, that he wasn't privy to, it was a 3 year contract and Mo. was asking for an increase from (example) £300k to £400k and for the whole length of the contract. I can see how that is an issue !
 
Well, if our wages are roughly £386m and that’s roughly 62% of income, and the UEFA rules state we have to be 70% or under, that 8% or so wiggle room gives us about £50m by my reckoning - or just under £1m a week.

So, there is a limit to what we can commit and ringfence for other new contracts our additional high quality players.

We should be able to do it, but @Beamrider will know more about what the impact of no CL to revenue last season will have and whether we can sustain a blip in revenue for one season.
 
I forget who it was I was watching today (a pundit on one of the main Sky/BBC/ESPN shows) who is supposedly an ITK (via his 'contacts' the female host said). He said that without mentioning exact numbers, that he wasn't privy to, it was a 3 year contract and Mo. was asking for an increase from (example) £300k to £400k and for the whole length of the contract. I can see how that is an issue !
He’s on 350k now. Pay the man.
 
Well, if our wages are roughly £386m and that’s roughly 62% of income, and the UEFA rules state we have to be 70% or under, that 8% or so wiggle room gives us about £50m by my reckoning - or just under £1m a week.

So, there is a limit to what we can commit and ringfence for other new contracts our additional high quality players.

We should be able to do it, but @Beamrider will know more about what the impact of no CL to revenue last season will have and whether we can sustain a blip in revenue for one season.
The UEFA limit is more complex. Firstly, it's not all wages, it's just players plus head coach / manager. Secondly, it adds in amortisation. Thirdly it includes (within the bottom half of the ratio) the average player sales profits for the previous 3 years. And finally, it's done for a calendar year, not financial. My estimate of our ratio based on 2023 accounts is 71% against a target of 80% for this year. We've trended in the high 60s / low 70s in recent years. With rising wages and it not being easy to just raise revenue, the teams that take it seriously will manage via players sales and trimming squad sizes / reliance on youth. This may be part of the rationale - prevent teams hoarding first-team players, give youth a chance etc. But on the player sales, as the rules include a 3-year average, only 1/3 of the sales in any given year will go towards supporting the ratio. So if a team sells a player for £100m profit, they get £33m of benefit in that year and the next 2. It means that it is difficult to just sell yourself out of a hole, you have to plan for a three year horizon. Everything else is on year to year figures.
I think there will be a lot of teams in breach this year. The fines are, supposedly, formula-based and automatic, albeit within a sliding scale, the application of which hasn't been made clear (so there is some scope for lenience, but in my opinion it really should be pro-rata based on the extent of the breach). I expect the rules to change, mainly on the application of fines, once UEFA see exactly what kind of monster they have created - i.e. they will shit the bed.
And finally on the matter of CL v UEFA, it's hard to tell as UEFA don't publish the allocations any more. The performance-related stuff can be worked out, but the allocation of money based on TV deal value is a finger in the air job. I reckon we'll have lost €60m - €70m of revenue for not being in the CL last year, which will be partly offset by lower wages for some players.
 
The UEFA limit is more complex. Firstly, it's not all wages, it's just players plus head coach / manager. Secondly, it adds in amortisation. Thirdly it includes (within the bottom half of the ratio) the average player sales profits for the previous 3 years. And finally, it's done for a calendar year, not financial. My estimate of our ratio based on 2023 accounts is 71% against a target of 80% for this year. We've trended in the high 60s / low 70s in recent years. With rising wages and it not being easy to just raise revenue, the teams that take it seriously will manage via players sales and trimming squad sizes / reliance on youth. This may be part of the rationale - prevent teams hoarding first-team players, give youth a chance etc. But on the player sales, as the rules include a 3-year average, only 1/3 of the sales in any given year will go towards supporting the ratio. So if a team sells a player for £100m profit, they get £33m of benefit in that year and the next 2. It means that it is difficult to just sell yourself out of a hole, you have to plan for a three year horizon. Everything else is on year to year figures.
I think there will be a lot of teams in breach this year. The fines are, supposedly, formula-based and automatic, albeit within a sliding scale, the application of which hasn't been made clear (so there is some scope for lenience, but in my opinion it really should be pro-rata based on the extent of the breach). I expect the rules to change, mainly on the application of fines, once UEFA see exactly what kind of monster they have created - i.e. they will shit the bed.
And finally on the matter of CL v UEFA, it's hard to tell as UEFA don't publish the allocations any more. The performance-related stuff can be worked out, but the allocation of money based on TV deal value is a finger in the air job. I reckon we'll have lost €60m - €70m of revenue for not being in the CL last year, which will be partly offset by lower wages for some players.

So, in your opinion, how much wiggle room do we have on wages and also money for new signings?

I’d imagine we’re going for younger players, lower wages and not wanting to be done over in transfer fees.

Are we in that spot where we can’t have our cake and eat it the way fans demand.. ie “give them what they want” and “Oi!!! Where’s our loads of new superstar signings???”.

Or are we just being overly cautious and risk averse?
 
Is the correct term "wiggle room" or "wriggle room" - I would go with the latter, but am happy to be corrected.
 
Is the correct term "wiggle room" or "wriggle room" - I would go with the latter, but am happy to be corrected.
AI

Both "wiggle room" and "wriggle room" are informal terms that mean the freedom to change your mind or do something differently. However, "wiggle room" is more commonly used than "wriggle room".
 
So, in your opinion, how much wiggle room do we have on wages and also money for new signings?

I’d imagine we’re going for younger players, lower wages and not wanting to be done over in transfer fees.

Are we in that spot where we can’t have our cake and eat it the way fans demand.. ie “give them what they want” and “Oi!!! Where’s our loads of new superstar signings???”.

Or are we just being overly cautious and risk averse?
Long post (sorry).

@tombrown - it depends.

We've been pretty good, historically, at managing within FFP and similar limits. The reality is that these new rules aren't the best for us as we've tended to pay good wages, but not splash out massively on transfer fees.

For context, some quick analysis of the 2023 accounts will give an idea of scale.

Squad costs (ie accumulated transfer fees and levies for all squad players) for the big 6 are:

City £1,117m
Chelsea £1,070m (NB this is only part-way through their spending spree)
United £924m
LFC £787m
Arsenal £772m
Spurs £579m

So we're basically on a par with Arsenal but significantly below the others. Spurs are an outlier.
Turning to wages, these are full-fat and include non-football staff (in City's case I've added back in the costs they artificially took out)

City £438m
Chelsea £373m
LFC £373m
United £331m
Spurs £251m
Arsenal £225m

FWIW, I think Arsenal's figure looks iffy, so they may be accounting for agents or image rights costs differently to the other clubs. But this underlines that we are paying wages similar to Chelsea's to a smaller, less-expensively assembled squad.

You can then create a hybrid wage and amortisation figure - basically this assumes squad costs written off over 5 years + wages. This will overstate the figures (staff wages are excluded from the UEFA ratio, and amortisation is likely to be lower than 20% of total cost) but it gives a steer on trend, relative to other clubs.

City £662m
Chelsea £587m
LFC £530m
United £516m
Arsenal £379m
Spurs £367m

What this shows is that due to our wages, we have harder revenue targets to hit, relatively speaking, than other teams who have spent more heavily on players. However, these numbers are from 2023, and will include Thiago, Milner, Henderson, Fabinho, Ox, Keita, Bobby. I'm not convinced the guys who've taken their places, to the extent they were replaced, will be earning the same sort of money.

Against that, you have the renewals currently underway, possible bump for Diaz, extra £5m a year in employer taxes (NIC). All of which says we don't have a great deal of capacity to push our spending unless we have increased our revenue.

Enter the new Anfield Road stand, not in the 2023 figures. New partnerships, strong performance in the Champions League in the first half of the year. They will add to the revenue figures for the current assessment period (to 31/12/2024), but there was never any risk there anyway as the current target is 80%.

Going into next year, I've said before that I believe we have money to spend (based on profitability and available cash). The new FCR could constrain that spending. So in terms of parameters:

1. Spending on transfer fees is less drastic as it will be spread over 5 years - so if we bring in a new player for a fee on lower wages than the guy he replaces then it could be a wash.
2. Wages need to be covered every year.
3. The choice between replacing or renewing a player will depend on a few factors:
i. Can we make a decent profit on the sale (NB only 1/3 counts in the year of sale)
ii. Is the wage saving sufficient to sell rather than renew (i.e. does it substantially cover the amortisation increase)?
iii. Can we downgrade cover for the position by using a youth team player to cover?
And in reality, clubs will need to adopt a balanced approach. So if we take the out-of-contract three:

VIRGIL
World's best
No re-sale value
Youth cover (Quansah) shows potential but has struggled
Replacement cost would be astronomical and still not at the same level
Getting on, but still in good physical condition
Everything says renew.

MO
In the discussion for World's best
No re-sale value
Youth cover (Doak) untested at top level and has some injury history, existing senior players would be a drop-off in quality
Getting on but still in peak condition
Huge commercial value
On balance, strong case to renew

TRENT
Elite attacking, not so much defensively
No re-sale value unless we sell now
Youth cover (Conor) looks good enough, but injury history
Entering his peak years
Local player
Will want massive hike in wages
On balance, if Madrid came in with a proper offer this month, on a financial level I would sell, as it doesn't look like he's going to renew and we will need cash to replace him. I wouldn't be against keeping him on balance, to avoid disruption, but in a pure financial sense we should sell.

There'll be similar assessments throughout the squad.

But I would be inclined to keep an eye on what UEFA does with punishments for this year. There will be a lot of teams in breach, even with the more relaxed targets, with Villa and Chelsea really exposed. They won't be able to sell a few car parks to get around these rules. Ultimately, if loads of clubs put pressure on UEFA, I think they will go easy on dishing out the fines, or even relax the targets. Fundamentally, the purpose of financial controls should be to prevent clubs spending money they don't have. In our case, the risk is that they prevent us from spending money that we DO have.

Failing any relaxation, we need to boost our revenues, and that means ticket prices going up, official incontinence pants of LFC etc. And a regular conveyor of players sales. Anyone with 2 years left who isn't showing signs of signing needs to be moved on, whoever they are. More youth, smaller squads. Because one thing is for sure, transfer fees and wage rates aren't going down any time soon.
 
Wiggling is like wiggling your finger, back and forth. Wriggling is finding your way through, twisting and moving. I think they both make sense, wriggle room is just a bit more active or aggressive than wiggle room. Depends on the context.
 
Long post (sorry).

@tombrown - it depends.

We've been pretty good, historically, at managing within FFP and similar limits. The reality is that these new rules aren't the best for us as we've tended to pay good wages, but not splash out massively on transfer fees.

For context, some quick analysis of the 2023 accounts will give an idea of scale.

Squad costs (ie accumulated transfer fees and levies for all squad players) for the big 6 are:

City £1,117m
Chelsea £1,070m (NB this is only part-way through their spending spree)
United £924m
LFC £787m
Arsenal £772m
Spurs £579m

So we're basically on a par with Arsenal but significantly below the others. Spurs are an outlier.
Turning to wages, these are full-fat and include non-football staff (in City's case I've added back in the costs they artificially took out)

City £438m
Chelsea £373m
LFC £373m
United £331m
Spurs £251m
Arsenal £225m

FWIW, I think Arsenal's figure looks iffy, so they may be accounting for agents or image rights costs differently to the other clubs. But this underlines that we are paying wages similar to Chelsea's to a smaller, less-expensively assembled squad.

You can then create a hybrid wage and amortisation figure - basically this assumes squad costs written off over 5 years + wages. This will overstate the figures (staff wages are excluded from the UEFA ratio, and amortisation is likely to be lower than 20% of total cost) but it gives a steer on trend, relative to other clubs.

City £662m
Chelsea £587m
LFC £530m
United £516m
Arsenal £379m
Spurs £367m

What this shows is that due to our wages, we have harder revenue targets to hit, relatively speaking, than other teams who have spent more heavily on players. However, these numbers are from 2023, and will include Thiago, Milner, Henderson, Fabinho, Ox, Keita, Bobby. I'm not convinced the guys who've taken their places, to the extent they were replaced, will be earning the same sort of money.

Against that, you have the renewals currently underway, possible bump for Diaz, extra £5m a year in employer taxes (NIC). All of which says we don't have a great deal of capacity to push our spending unless we have increased our revenue.

Enter the new Anfield Road stand, not in the 2023 figures. New partnerships, strong performance in the Champions League in the first half of the year. They will add to the revenue figures for the current assessment period (to 31/12/2024), but there was never any risk there anyway as the current target is 80%.

Going into next year, I've said before that I believe we have money to spend (based on profitability and available cash). The new FCR could constrain that spending. So in terms of parameters:

1. Spending on transfer fees is less drastic as it will be spread over 5 years - so if we bring in a new player for a fee on lower wages than the guy he replaces then it could be a wash.
2. Wages need to be covered every year.
3. The choice between replacing or renewing a player will depend on a few factors:
i. Can we make a decent profit on the sale (NB only 1/3 counts in the year of sale)
ii. Is the wage saving sufficient to sell rather than renew (i.e. does it substantially cover the amortisation increase)?
iii. Can we downgrade cover for the position by using a youth team player to cover?
And in reality, clubs will need to adopt a balanced approach. So if we take the out-of-contract three:

VIRGIL
World's best
No re-sale value
Youth cover (Quansah) shows potential but has struggled
Replacement cost would be astronomical and still not at the same level
Getting on, but still in good physical condition
Everything says renew.

MO
In the discussion for World's best
No re-sale value
Youth cover (Doak) untested at top level and has some injury history, existing senior players would be a drop-off in quality
Getting on but still in peak condition
Huge commercial value
On balance, strong case to renew

TRENT
Elite attacking, not so much defensively
No re-sale value unless we sell now
Youth cover (Conor) looks good enough, but injury history
Entering his peak years
Local player
Will want massive hike in wages
On balance, if Madrid came in with a proper offer this month, on a financial level I would sell, as it doesn't look like he's going to renew and we will need cash to replace him. I wouldn't be against keeping him on balance, to avoid disruption, but in a pure financial sense we should sell.

There'll be similar assessments throughout the squad.

But I would be inclined to keep an eye on what UEFA does with punishments for this year. There will be a lot of teams in breach, even with the more relaxed targets, with Villa and Chelsea really exposed. They won't be able to sell a few car parks to get around these rules. Ultimately, if loads of clubs put pressure on UEFA, I think they will go easy on dishing out the fines, or even relax the targets. Fundamentally, the purpose of financial controls should be to prevent clubs spending money they don't have. In our case, the risk is that they prevent us from spending money that we DO have.

Failing any relaxation, we need to boost our revenues, and that means ticket prices going up, official incontinence pants of LFC etc. And a regular conveyor of players sales. Anyone with 2 years left who isn't showing signs of signing needs to be moved on, whoever they are. More youth, smaller squads. Because one thing is for sure, transfer fees and wage rates aren't going down any time soon.

It just seems such a farce to me that enforcement of the rules is dependent on the amount of lobbying teams will or will not do.

So different from North American sports where collective bargaining agreements dictate the rules and enforcement is more or less written in stone.

There are many things about North American sports to be avoided but the transparency and integrity could do with importation.
 
It just seems such a farce to me that enforcement of the rules is dependent on the amount of lobbying teams will or will not do.

So different from North American sports where collective bargaining agreements dictate the rules and enforcement is more or less written in stone.

There are many things about North American sports to be avoided but the transparency and integrity could do with importation.
I may be wrong, UEFA may hold their nerve, but I reckon they'll bottle it.
Fundamentally, there is a co-dependence between the clubs and UEFA. The clubs aren't obliged to enter UEFA competitions and if they know they're going to get heavily fined if they do, possibly wiping out their UEFA earnings or worse, then the chances are they'll pass up the opportunity, and then the competitions are weakened. So I expect some compromise.
I am, frankly, amazed that Chelsea entered the Europa Conference this year. Unless there's been an amazing transformation in their finances, then they face being fine more than they will earn. Might also be the case for Villa too.
 
I may be wrong, UEFA may hold their nerve, but I reckon they'll bottle it.
Fundamentally, there is a co-dependence between the clubs and UEFA. The clubs aren't obliged to enter UEFA competitions and if they know they're going to get heavily fined if they do, possibly wiping out their UEFA earnings or worse, then the chances are they'll pass up the opportunity, and then the competitions are weakened. So I expect some compromise.
I am, frankly, amazed that Chelsea entered the Europa Conference this year. Unless there's been an amazing transformation in their finances, then they face being fine more than they will earn. Might also be the case for Villa too.

Makes sense. I can't fathom a team turning down a spot in a competition but, as you say, there really is no obligation.
 
Makes sense. I can't fathom a team turning down a spot in a competition but, as you say, there really is no obligation.
To put it into context with Chelsea, they might earn €15-18m for being in the Europa Conference League and winning it.
If UEFA applies its rules strictly, based on my estimates they could be fined £18-36m, which would wipe out the financial benefit of entering the competition. And the fine is potentially the same in the Conference League as it would be in the Champions League (where they would at least earn more than the fine).
Financially speaking, there's no way you'd enter that competition.
 
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