Swingers & swinging...

[LadyRed]

Incidentally, Roger is a simpleton.

His comment in itself was not racist, his conduct since has proven him to be the moron that his is.

His choice of words certainly had a suggestion. If Foureyes was white, he would not have chosen 'onion bhaji's', his choice of words was deliberate and calculated.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589267#msg589267 date=1212690281]
No, Ross, again, you're being simplistic AGAIN.

In a LEGAL setting, you're definitions work. But in terms of interaction between people, and the emotion reactions that are envoked, what you're saying is too rigid, and not an effective tool of measure.

How you fail to see this, I can't understand.

For example, I have come across a woman lately, she REFUSES to look at me or address me, even when I talk to her, she won't look at me. She will look at other people in the room. The only people she won't address or look at, are me and the other Asian person present. Is there any legal basis that I could pin her down on? No.

Do I feel she's treating me differently because of my race? Yes.

And once we get to this point, there seems to be a sticking post with you. If someone treats you differently, i.e. less favourably, based on your race: It's racism. Simple as.

Why is there a reluctance to accept this?

No it's not 'Racial Discrimination' in the legal sense, but it is racism. Why is that so hard for you to understand Ross?


[/quote]

Anita that is racial discrimination in a legal sense.

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=24077.msg589257#msg589257 date=1212690037]
I don't think there is really any definitive answer to this, it isn't black & White as Rosco makes it out but at the same time it's not near what you say Anita, it's a bit of both. You'll end up going round in circles for everrrrrrrrrrrrrr


[/quote]

Sorry, what's nowhere near what I say?

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589272#msg589272 date=1212690440]
His comment in itself was not racist
[/quote]

So ultimately you agree with me on this and you disagree with foureyes.

 

[keniget]

Legal definitions don't necessarily define human emotions, but who is trying to say that they do?

Society is structured around definitions and rules. If it wasn't, things would be rather chaotic because as we've discovered, peoples opinions and feelings can vary quite significantly.

What Ross, or should I say the law, is trying to do, is provide some sort of a common foundation, which is necessary when dealing with such a divisive issue. Nobody is being ignorant, intolerant or unkind here, but peoples feelings are subject to exploration and judgement - that's just the way of the world. That's partly how we arrive at some of our definitions and rules.

I didn't think it was offensive in the slightest, considering the context in which it was said, however I can accept that it was to foureyes. That said, the whole thing was blown way out of proportion.

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589274#msg589274 date=1212690453]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589267#msg589267 date=1212690281]
No, Ross, again, you're being simplistic AGAIN.

In a LEGAL setting, you're definitions work. But in terms of interaction between people, and the emotion reactions that are envoked, what you're saying is too rigid, and not an effective tool of measure.

How you fail to see this, I can't understand.

For example, I have come across a woman lately, she REFUSES to look at me or address me, even when I talk to her, she won't look at me. She will look at other people in the room. The only people she won't address or look at, are me and the other Asian person present. Is there any legal basis that I could pin her down on? No.

Do I feel she's treating me differently because of my race? Yes.

And once we get to this point, there seems to be a sticking post with you. If someone treats you differently, i.e. less favourably, based on your race: It's racism. Simple as.

Why is there a reluctance to accept this?

No it's not 'Racial Discrimination' in the legal sense, but it is racism. Why is that so hard for you to understand Ross?


[/quote]

Anita that is racial discrimination in a legal sense.
[/quote]

'Your honour, she did not look at me'.

Hardly.

It's unfavourable/different treatment based on race: racism.

It does not have to be legally recognised to classified to be racist.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

*Douses cross with petrol*

 

[HC]

If Foureyes called me a Fish 'n chips muncher, would that be racist?

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589281#msg589281 date=1212690606]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589274#msg589274 date=1212690453]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589267#msg589267 date=1212690281]
No, Ross, again, you're being simplistic AGAIN.

In a LEGAL setting, you're definitions work. But in terms of interaction between people, and the emotion reactions that are envoked, what you're saying is too rigid, and not an effective tool of measure.

How you fail to see this, I can't understand.

For example, I have come across a woman lately, she REFUSES to look at me or address me, even when I talk to her, she won't look at me. She will look at other people in the room. The only people she won't address or look at, are me and the other Asian person present. Is there any legal basis that I could pin her down on? No.

Do I feel she's treating me differently because of my race? Yes.

And once we get to this point, there seems to be a sticking post with you. If someone treats you differently, i.e. less favourably, based on your race: It's racism. Simple as.

Why is there a reluctance to accept this?

No it's not 'Racial Discrimination' in the legal sense, but it is racism. Why is that so hard for you to understand Ross?


[/quote]

Anita that is racial discrimination in a legal sense.
[/quote]

'Your honour, she did not look at me'.

Hardly.

It's unfavourable/different treatment based on race: racism.

It does not have to be legally recognised to classified to be racist.
[/quote]

Any differential treatment on the basis of race = racial discrimination.

So it is covered Anita.

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589277#msg589277 date=1212690552]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589272#msg589272 date=1212690440]
His comment in itself was not racist
[/quote]

So ultimately you agree with me on this and you disagree with foureyes.

[/quote]

Not really.

Anyway, my point is more your definitions.

I think they are absurd and robotic. People don't function like that.

I've had this conversation with people on here before, it never fails to shock me as to how people are so scared of being labelled racist, yet at the same time so frightened/reluctant to recognise racism when it's infront of them.

As I said before, notice in these conversations it's always the minorities justifying themselves to the rest: I HATE THAT. It's not how I live my life, and I hate that it ends up like that one here. In the past, I've stopped posting for periods because of it. Other posters like Themn and Hamann hardly post at all for the same reason because they've been made to feel so conscious of race(ism) on here.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Anyone got a light?

 

[HC]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589292#msg589292 date=1212690913]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589277#msg589277 date=1212690552]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589272#msg589272 date=1212690440]
His comment in itself was not racist
[/quote]

So ultimately you agree with me on this and you disagree with foureyes.

[/quote]

Not really.

Anyway, my point is more your definitions.

I think they are absurd and robotic. People don't function like that.

I've had this conversation with people on here before, it never fails to shock me as to how people are so scared of being labelled racist, yet at the same time so frightened/reluctant to recognise racism when it's infront of them.

As I said before, notice in these conversations it's always the minorities justifying themselves to the rest: I HATE THAT. It's not how I live my life, and I hate that it ends up like that one here. In the past, I've stopped posting for periods because of it. Other posters like Themn and Hamann hardly post at all for the same reason because they've been made to feel so conscious of race(ism) on here.


[/quote]

It is kind of obvious why the minorities generally speaking express so strongly on racial matters, Anita.. However, I find your comment about justification unfair, I assume your talking about Foureyes repeatedly needing to justify himself?

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589265#msg589265 date=1212690234]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589259#msg589259 date=1212690098]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589249#msg589249 date=1212689735]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=24077.msg589245#msg589245 date=1212689691]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589236#msg589236 date=1212689422]

We've already established that something can't be racist unless it infers that you are inferior on account of your race.
[/quote]

You decided that Ross...not 'we'
[/quote]

No I didn't decide it.

The European Court of Human Rights decided it.


[/quote]

Yeh and according to their definition of racism i can be called Towel Head, ****, curry muncher, foreigner etc etc etc - none of which imply I am inferior, but they are simply meant to cause offence. End of. It's bollocks. Are you saying all those terms are acceptable. No of course they're not. They all cause offence and they're all racially motivated. If that's not racial harassment then what is?
[/quote]

Where have I said anything was acceptable ?

What I've consistently said is there's a difference between what is offensive and what is racist. As mentioned above you have to look at the history behind the word and the connotations that are associated with it.
[/quote]

Great. so we're agreed that it's unacceptable. Now is it not racially motivated? Of course it bloody is. So just how would you define all those terms if you for some reason can't see how they constitute racial harassment?

So if someone was to call me a darky or a towel head, what would you call it?

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589272#msg589272 date=1212690440]
Incidentally, Roger is a simpleton.

His comment in itself was not racist, his conduct since has proven him to be the moron that his is.

His choice of words certainly had a suggestion. If Foureyes was white, he would not have chosen 'onion bhaji's', his choice of words was deliberate and calculated.
[/quote]

Yep.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589292#msg589292 date=1212690913]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589277#msg589277 date=1212690552]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589272#msg589272 date=1212690440]
His comment in itself was not racist
[/quote]

So ultimately you agree with me on this and you disagree with foureyes.

[/quote]

Not really.

Anyway, my point is more your definitions.

I think they are absurd and robotic. People don't function like that.

I've had this conversation with people on here before, it never fails to shock me as to how people are so scared of being labelled racist, yet at the same time so frightened/reluctant to recognise racism when it's infront of them.

As I said before, notice in these conversations it's always the minorities justifying themselves to the rest: I HATE THAT. It's not how I live my life, and I hate that it ends up like that one here. In the past, I've stopped posting for periods because of it. Other posters like Themn and Hamann hardly post at all for the same reason because they've been made to feel so conscious of race(ism) on here. [/quote]

I don't know Anita ... I don't find myself justifying myself to anyone, and I would think I'm a minority.

While I'm not too fussed about Themn as I never really 'bonded' with him as a poster, I do miss H as I thought he was a fantastic, knowledgeable poster. He said he'd be back though once exams and shit cool down a wee bit.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589277#msg589277 date=1212690552]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589272#msg589272 date=1212690440]
His comment in itself was not racist
[/quote]

So ultimately you agree with me on this and you disagree with foureyes.

[/quote]

No Ross. Your missing the point yet again. It's your definition and understanding of racism and racial harassment that's the sticking point here.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

*Drops lighter*

Oh bollox


Whooooooooooooosh

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=24077.msg589295#msg589295 date=1212691025]
Anyone got a light?
[/quote]

Yeh I keep one in mi turban. Gimme a sec...

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589218#msg589218 date=1212688730]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589210#msg589210 date=1212688486]
We're arguing different things here.

I'm not saying it's not offensive, I'm saying it doesn't constitute racism.

You're equating offensiveness with racism, which is wrong.
[/quote]

Which is exactly what I said those 30 posts ago that you mentioned. You're talking about racial discrimination. I'm talking about racial harassment which is what most people on the street take as being racism.

So back to the point Rosco. According to your definition, someone calling me a 'Paki' isn't racial harassment. Right?
[/quote]

Isn't the definition of harassment persistent?

This was a one off example.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589292#msg589292 date=1212690913]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589277#msg589277 date=1212690552]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589272#msg589272 date=1212690440]
His comment in itself was not racist
[/quote]

So ultimately you agree with me on this and you disagree with foureyes.

[/quote]

Not really.

Anyway, my point is more your definitions.

I think they are absurd and robotic. People don't function like that.

I've had this conversation with people on here before, it never fails to shock me as to how people are so scared of being labelled racist, yet at the same time so frightened/reluctant to recognise racism when it's infront of them.

As I said before, notice in these conversations it's always the minorities justifying themselves to the rest: I HATE THAT. It's not how I live my life, and I hate that it ends up like that one here. In the past, I've stopped posting for periods because of it. Other posters like Themn and Hamann hardly post at all for the same reason because they've been made to feel so conscious of race(ism) on here.


[/quote]

If somebody levels an accusation of racism at someone else then it's up to them to justify it Anita. It's not something that can be done lightly.

Where I started was that I didn't think "throw an onion bhaji" was a racist comment and I've tried to reason with Foureyes as to why it isn't racist. While you disagree with what the highest court in Europe has said and what the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights see as Racism ultimately you have agreed that the original comment was not racist.

That for me is all that needs to be said.

Anita you have a reputation for being the most sensitive poster on the site, so if it's not racist to you then it's not racist at all as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589303#msg589303 date=1212691315]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589277#msg589277 date=1212690552]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589272#msg589272 date=1212690440]
His comment in itself was not racist
[/quote]

So ultimately you agree with me on this and you disagree with foureyes.

[/quote]

No Ross. Your missing the point yet again. It's your definition and understanding of racism and racial harassment that's the sticking point here.
[/quote]
No it's not Foureyes, it's your insistence that Roger's original comment was racist.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=24077.msg589226#msg589226 date=1212689020]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=24077.msg589224#msg589224 date=1212688906]
I just wish Gandhi and Bruce Lee had knocked each other out at the beginning of the thread then we wouldn't have had to endure all this racist nonsense.
[/quote]

*sniggers*

Yeah that said SNIGGERS you cunts.
[/quote]

Yer all just a big bunch of f*cking Naggers!

Yes that said naggers you cunts.

Best South Park episode ever.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589230#msg589230 date=1212689250]


The first thing that strikes me when reading through, is the fact that Foureyes, for most of the thread has had to justify/explain why he's offended, like it requires a rationalisation.
[/quote]

Not you too.

Nobody and I mean nobody is questioning his right to be offended. This is about whether or not what was said was racist and it clearly is not.

Anyways back on topic.

Would you swing Anita?

 

[HC]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589313#msg589313 date=1212691745]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=24077.msg589230#msg589230 date=1212689250]


The first thing that strikes me when reading through, is the fact that Foureyes, for most of the thread has had to justify/explain why he's offended, like it requires a rationalisation.
[/quote]

Not you too.

Nobody and I mean nobody is questioning his right to be offended. This is about whether or not what was said was racist and it clearly is not.

[/quote]

Haha, you've said that so many times in this thread and each time it's been ignored, I thought I'd acknowledge this one 😉

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589239#msg589239 date=1212689587]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589236#msg589236 date=1212689422]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589218#msg589218 date=1212688730]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589210#msg589210 date=1212688486]
We're arguing different things here.

I'm not saying it's not offensive, I'm saying it doesn't constitute racism.

You're equating offensiveness with racism, which is wrong.
[/quote]

Which is exactly what I said those 30 posts ago that you mentioned. You're talking about racial discrimination. I'm talking about racial harassment which is what most people on the street take as being racism.

So back to the point Rosco. According to your definition, someone calling me a 'Paki' isn't racial harassment. Right?
[/quote]

Look foureyes,

At the very top of the hierarchy is Racism.

Racial harrasment and racial discrimination could both be said to be subsets of Racism.

We've already established that something can't be racist unless it infers that you are inferior on account of your race.

So if something doesn't do that it doesn't fall into either racial discrimination or racial harrassment. Even though you want it to.
[/quote]

So i'll say it again. By your very definition, the term Paki is fine. It's in no way a term that implies inferiority etc. It's one simply meant to cause offence. I know. So folks can call me Paki now can they? According to your definitions they can.
[/quote]

Jesus fUcking Christ.

I'm supposed to be the thickest cnut on here and even I see the difference.

There are f*ck all people that do not know the baggage associated with calling someone a Paki.

While outside of your circle friends family and upbringing, I doubt many would associate asking someone if they throw an onion as racist.

Surely surely surely you can see that!

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Asim link=topic=24077.msg589245#msg589245 date=1212689691]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589236#msg589236 date=1212689422]

We've already established that something can't be racist unless it infers that you are inferior on account of your race.
[/quote]

You decided that Ross...not 'we'
[/quote]

So the law counts for nothing.

WTF?

If we do not define what is right or wrong by using our laws what the hell do we use?

 

[Paddy]

DB you are a cunt.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Paddy link=topic=24077.msg589327#msg589327 date=1212692374]
DB you are a cunt.
[/quote]

An Irish cunt too.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Asim link=topic=24077.msg589260#msg589260 date=1212690112]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589254#msg589254 date=1212689886]


You can take the piss out of someone's race/religion etc etc without suggesting they are 'lower' than you.

[/quote]

Of course you can but that is not racism.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589319#msg589319 date=1212692111]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589239#msg589239 date=1212689587]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589236#msg589236 date=1212689422]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589218#msg589218 date=1212688730]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589210#msg589210 date=1212688486]
We're arguing different things here.

I'm not saying it's not offensive, I'm saying it doesn't constitute racism.

You're equating offensiveness with racism, which is wrong.
[/quote]

Which is exactly what I said those 30 posts ago that you mentioned. You're talking about racial discrimination. I'm talking about racial harassment which is what most people on the street take as being racism.

So back to the point Rosco. According to your definition, someone calling me a 'Paki' isn't racial harassment. Right?
[/quote]

Look foureyes,

At the very top of the hierarchy is Racism.

Racial harrasment and racial discrimination could both be said to be subsets of Racism.

We've already established that something can't be racist unless it infers that you are inferior on account of your race.

So if something doesn't do that it doesn't fall into either racial discrimination or racial harrassment. Even though you want it to.
[/quote]

So i'll say it again. By your very definition, the term Paki is fine. It's in no way a term that implies inferiority etc. It's one simply meant to cause offence. I know. So folks can call me Paki now can they? According to your definitions they can.
[/quote]

Jesus fUcking Christ.

I'm supposed to be the thickest cnut on here and even I see the difference.

There are f*ck all people that do not know the baggage associated with calling someone a Paki.

While outside of your circle friends family and upbringing, I doubt many would associate asking someone if they throw an onion as racist.

Surely surely surely you can see that!
[/quote]

Read the post again DB. You totally missed the point.