Swingers & swinging...

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=24077.msg589058#msg589058 date=1212678839]
Ok, I don't think it's human nature to base prejudices on race, people may do so depending on their society and upbringing. I do think making judgements on people due to their appearance(height, weight, gestures etc). is inbred in us, whether we even realise them or not.
[/quote]

I think race does come into for alot of people too though from my travels.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589146#msg589146 date=1212683366]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589141#msg589141 date=1212683059]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=24077.msg589021#msg589021 date=1212677054]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589012#msg589012 date=1212676824] If someone has taken offence to a comment regarding their race, something should be done about it rather than folks just saying the world has gone pc mad.
[/quote]

True, but these instances should still be investigated rather than take the 'victims' claims at face value and proceed on that basis. Putting aside the issue with Roger, it's far too easy to claim the race card these days - that's why many people are a bit fed up and go on the "world has gone PC mad" rants.
[/quote]


Agreed and in this case as Ross has pointed much better than I ever could, asking someone if they throw an onion whatsitsname is not being racist.

Offensive maybe, a prick maybe but a racist no.

And for me its almost as bad for someone to loosely label someone a racist as it is to be one.

Those claims can stick without justification.


[/quote]

Wow. That's a big comment. So now you're telling me that not only do I have no right to be offended but that i'm almost as bad as a racist. Fuk me. I'm flabbergasted.

I made a point in response to your last one which you have ignored DB. Probably because you didn't quite know how to argue with it. Maybe because it made sense.
[/quote]

Which one?

And I didn't say you were as bad. I said its almost as if its without proof.

Its like when a girl is found to have cried rape when it didn't happen. The rag of rapist takes a long time to go away with our without a conviction.

Likewise if you are called a racist. So Iwould be very careful who I called one, and made sure I had a better example to prove it that saying "they asked me if through some food"

Make sense?

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589155#msg589155 date=1212684210]



Are you arguing my point for me? Seriously. The policy that you are on about with regards to Unis etc is the exact same thing I am saying. That if it's deemed offensive by the 'victim' and it's about their race, it's racial harassment. Their policy backs up what I am saying. Not just them but numerous institutional bodies and states etc. Hell even local councils.
[/quote]

Not at all.

My point is, your opinion of what a racist is means nothing.

Neither does mine.

Just because you or me feel or think something does not make it so.

Christ I suck at explaining a point over the net.

Face to face is so much easier.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589162#msg589162 date=1212684534]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589146#msg589146 date=1212683366]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589141#msg589141 date=1212683059]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=24077.msg589021#msg589021 date=1212677054]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589012#msg589012 date=1212676824] If someone has taken offence to a comment regarding their race, something should be done about it rather than folks just saying the world has gone pc mad.
[/quote]

True, but these instances should still be investigated rather than take the 'victims' claims at face value and proceed on that basis. Putting aside the issue with Roger, it's far too easy to claim the race card these days - that's why many people are a bit fed up and go on the "world has gone PC mad" rants.
[/quote]


Agreed and in this case as Ross has pointed much better than I ever could, asking someone if they throw an onion whatsitsname is not being racist.

Offensive maybe, a prick maybe but a racist no.

And for me its almost as bad for someone to loosely label someone a racist as it is to be one.

Those claims can stick without justification.


[/quote]

Wow. That's a big comment. So now you're telling me that not only do I have no right to be offended but that i'm almost as bad as a racist. Fuk me. I'm flabbergasted.

I made a point in response to your last one which you have ignored DB. Probably because you didn't quite know how to argue with it. Maybe because it made sense.
[/quote]

Which one?

And I didn't say you were as bad. I said its almost as if its without proof.

Its like when a girl is found to have cried rape when it didn't happen. The rag of rapist takes a long time to go away with our without a conviction.

Likewise if you are called a racist. So Iwould be very careful who I called one, and made sure I had a better example to prove it that saying "they asked me if through some food"

Make sense?
[/quote]

The one in red you nutter!

You seemed to have been implying that I have labelled Roger a racist loosely. You then said that that's almost as bad as being a racist. It's almost like you're saying i'm worse than a racist!

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589179#msg589179 date=1212685477]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589162#msg589162 date=1212684534]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589146#msg589146 date=1212683366]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589141#msg589141 date=1212683059]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=24077.msg589021#msg589021 date=1212677054]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589012#msg589012 date=1212676824] If someone has taken offence to a comment regarding their race, something should be done about it rather than folks just saying the world has gone pc mad.
[/quote]

True, but these instances should still be investigated rather than take the 'victims' claims at face value and proceed on that basis. Putting aside the issue with Roger, it's far too easy to claim the race card these days - that's why many people are a bit fed up and go on the "world has gone PC mad" rants.
[/quote]


Agreed and in this case as Ross has pointed much better than I ever could, asking someone if they throw an onion whatsitsname is not being racist.

Offensive maybe, a prick maybe but a racist no.

And for me its almost as bad for someone to loosely label someone a racist as it is to be one.

Those claims can stick without justification.


[/quote]

Wow. That's a big comment. So now you're telling me that not only do I have no right to be offended but that i'm almost as bad as a racist. Fuk me. I'm flabbergasted.

I made a point in response to your last one which you have ignored DB. Probably because you didn't quite know how to argue with it. Maybe because it made sense.
[/quote]

Which one?

And I didn't say you were as bad. I said its almost as if its without proof.

Its like when a girl is found to have cried rape when it didn't happen. The rag of rapist takes a long time to go away with our without a conviction.

Likewise if you are called a racist. So Iwould be very careful who I called one, and made sure I had a better example to prove it that saying "they asked me if through some food"

Make sense?
[/quote]

The one in red you nutter!

You seemed to have been implying that I have labelled Roger a racist loosely. You then said that that's almost as bad as being a racist. It's almost like you're saying i'm worse than a racist!
[/quote]

Labelling someone a racist after they ask you if you throw oinions around is as loose as it gets for me and bang out of order.

Saying you found it offensive would have been fine.

With all the pc these days calling someone racist is a big deal.

If that comment is racist then I must be a racist 1,000 times over.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589165#msg589165 date=1212684799]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589155#msg589155 date=1212684210]



Are you arguing my point for me? Seriously. The policy that you are on about with regards to Unis etc is the exact same thing I am saying. That if it's deemed offensive by the 'victim' and it's about their race, it's racial harassment. Their policy backs up what I am saying. Not just them but numerous institutional bodies and states etc. Hell even local councils.
[/quote]

Not at all.

My point is, your opinion of what a racist is means nothing.

Neither does mine.

Just because you or me feel or think something does not make it so.

Christ I suck at explaining a point over the net.

Face to face is so much easier.

[/quote]

DB you're still not seeing my point. At all.

I'll try to explain it differently. I mentioned yesterday that if you Google racism etc you'll find shit loads of sites from councils, Unis, schools, the NHS etc who pretty much all say the same thing. That racial harassment is deemed to be when someone finds a comment offensive made to them about their race or colour or background. This can range from jokes to comments to slurs etc. The bottom line is that i take offence to it and it's regarding my race it's racial harassment according to all these institutions. I'm saying the same thing. Like you said, these are policies agreed upon via democratic processes by intelligent individuals.

To you it's no big deal and you can't see why it upset me, but that makes it no less offensive to me. There may be things said to you in future by members of the public that you take offence to regarding your race. The arsehole that said it will possibly never see why you find it offensive and laugh in your face, denying all possibility of it being racist. Hell, he may even tell you that you're over reacting. But the bottom line is that YOU felt offended and it was regarding your race. And nobody has the right to tell you otherwise.

This is the stance that the sites mentioned take, and it's the stance I agree with. It's not for you or other's on this site to tell me what I can and can't find offensive.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589186#msg589186 date=1212685980]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589165#msg589165 date=1212684799]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589155#msg589155 date=1212684210]



Are you arguing my point for me? Seriously. The policy that you are on about with regards to Unis etc is the exact same thing I am saying. That if it's deemed offensive by the 'victim' and it's about their race, it's racial harassment. Their policy backs up what I am saying. Not just them but numerous institutional bodies and states etc. Hell even local councils.
[/quote]

Not at all.

My point is, your opinion of what a racist is means nothing.

Neither does mine.

Just because you or me feel or think something does not make it so.

Christ I suck at explaining a point over the net.

Face to face is so much easier.

[/quote]

DB you're still not seeing my point. At all.

I'll try to explain it differently. I mentioned yesterday that if you Google racism etc you'll find shit loads of sites from councils, Unis, schools, the NHS etc who pretty much all say the same thing. That racial harassment is deemed to be when someone finds a comment offensive made to them about their race or colour or background. This can range from jokes to comments to slurs etc. The bottom line is that i take offence to it and it's regarding my race it's racial harassment according to all these institutions. I'm saying the same thing. Like you said, these are policies agreed upon via democratic processes by intelligent individuals.

To you it's no big deal and you can't see why it upset me, but that makes it no less offensive to me. There may be things said to you in future by members of the public that you take offence to regarding your race. The arsehole that said it will possibly never see why you find it offensive and laugh in your face, denying all possibility of it being racist. Hell, he may even tell you that you're over reacting. But the bottom line is that YOU felt offended and it was regarding your race. And nobody has the right to tell you otherwise.

This is the stance that the sites mentioned take, and it's the stance I agree with. It's not for you or other's on this site to tell me what I can and can't find offensive.
[/quote]

Look the most liberal and progressive court in Europe defines racism in a way that completely excludes the onion bahji throwing comment as being racist.

You're completely missing the point on this repeatedly Foureyes, it can only be racist if it infers that you're inferior because of your race. Does it do that ? Everybody's answer here has been no. Including Oncy whose post you agreed with.

It's up to you to decide what offends you, but the highest court in Europe has defined what racism and racist behaviour is.

Offensive does not equal racist.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589191#msg589191 date=1212686550]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589186#msg589186 date=1212685980]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589165#msg589165 date=1212684799]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589155#msg589155 date=1212684210]



Are you arguing my point for me? Seriously. The policy that you are on about with regards to Unis etc is the exact same thing I am saying. That if it's deemed offensive by the 'victim' and it's about their race, it's racial harassment. Their policy backs up what I am saying. Not just them but numerous institutional bodies and states etc. Hell even local councils.
[/quote]

Not at all.

My point is, your opinion of what a racist is means nothing.

Neither does mine.

Just because you or me feel or think something does not make it so.

Christ I suck at explaining a point over the net.

Face to face is so much easier.

[/quote]

DB you're still not seeing my point. At all.

I'll try to explain it differently. I mentioned yesterday that if you Google racism etc you'll find shit loads of sites from councils, Unis, schools, the NHS etc who pretty much all say the same thing. That racial harassment is deemed to be when someone finds a comment offensive made to them about their race or colour or background. This can range from jokes to comments to slurs etc. The bottom line is that i take offence to it and it's regarding my race it's racial harassment according to all these institutions. I'm saying the same thing. Like you said, these are policies agreed upon via democratic processes by intelligent individuals.

To you it's no big deal and you can't see why it upset me, but that makes it no less offensive to me. There may be things said to you in future by members of the public that you take offence to regarding your race. The arsehole that said it will possibly never see why you find it offensive and laugh in your face, denying all possibility of it being racist. Hell, he may even tell you that you're over reacting. But the bottom line is that YOU felt offended and it was regarding your race. And nobody has the right to tell you otherwise.

This is the stance that the sites mentioned take, and it's the stance I agree with. It's not for you or other's on this site to tell me what I can and can't find offensive.
[/quote]

Look the most liberal and progressive court in Europe defines racism in a way that completely excludes the onion bahji throwing comment as being racist.

You're completely missing the point on this repeatedly Foureyes, it can only be racist if it infers that you're inferior because of your race. Does it do that ? Everybody's answer here has been no. Including Oncy whose post you agreed with.

It's up to you to decide what offends you, but the highest court in Europe has defined what racism and racist behaviour is.

Offensive does not equal racist.

[/quote]

I couldn't care less what some twerp in Brussels says. I'm concerned with the real world institutions and organisations that I have mentioned. That's what matters because it's in and amongst these institutions that I work and live in. And they say quite clearly that it's racial harassment. You won't accept it. Because it debases your argument. If I went to the Uni in the link, it's THEIR policies that would control what happens in these cases. Do you not see that? Their policies agree with me. That if I take offence to it and it's regarding my race, it's racial harassment.

Oh, and regarding other people's opinions, it makes no difference to me. Simply because they have no idea of how my life has been and what forms of racist abuse I have been subjected to and hence, what I will find offensive. There is a logic and a strong argument behind what I'm saying. I'm intelligent enough to believe there is sense behind what i'm saying, and i'm argumentative and stubborn enough to stand my ground, regardless of how much flack I take.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589195#msg589195 date=1212686915]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589191#msg589191 date=1212686550]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589186#msg589186 date=1212685980]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589165#msg589165 date=1212684799]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589155#msg589155 date=1212684210]



Are you arguing my point for me? Seriously. The policy that you are on about with regards to Unis etc is the exact same thing I am saying. That if it's deemed offensive by the 'victim' and it's about their race, it's racial harassment. Their policy backs up what I am saying. Not just them but numerous institutional bodies and states etc. Hell even local councils.
[/quote]

Not at all.

My point is, your opinion of what a racist is means nothing.

Neither does mine.

Just because you or me feel or think something does not make it so.

Christ I suck at explaining a point over the net.

Face to face is so much easier.

[/quote]

DB you're still not seeing my point. At all.

I'll try to explain it differently. I mentioned yesterday that if you Google racism etc you'll find shit loads of sites from councils, Unis, schools, the NHS etc who pretty much all say the same thing. That racial harassment is deemed to be when someone finds a comment offensive made to them about their race or colour or background. This can range from jokes to comments to slurs etc. The bottom line is that i take offence to it and it's regarding my race it's racial harassment according to all these institutions. I'm saying the same thing. Like you said, these are policies agreed upon via democratic processes by intelligent individuals.

To you it's no big deal and you can't see why it upset me, but that makes it no less offensive to me. There may be things said to you in future by members of the public that you take offence to regarding your race. The arsehole that said it will possibly never see why you find it offensive and laugh in your face, denying all possibility of it being racist. Hell, he may even tell you that you're over reacting. But the bottom line is that YOU felt offended and it was regarding your race. And nobody has the right to tell you otherwise.

This is the stance that the sites mentioned take, and it's the stance I agree with. It's not for you or other's on this site to tell me what I can and can't find offensive.
[/quote]

Look the most liberal and progressive court in Europe defines racism in a way that completely excludes the onion bahji throwing comment as being racist.

You're completely missing the point on this repeatedly Foureyes, it can only be racist if it infers that you're inferior because of your race. Does it do that ? Everybody's answer here has been no. Including Oncy whose post you agreed with.

It's up to you to decide what offends you, but the highest court in Europe has defined what racism and racist behaviour is.

Offensive does not equal racist.

[/quote]

I couldn't care less what some twerp in Brussels says. I'm concerned with the real world institutions and organisations that I have mentioned. That's what matters because it's in and amongst these institutions that I work and live in. And they say quite clearly that it's racial harassment. You won't accept it. Because it debases your argument. If I went to the Uni in the link, it's THEIR policies that would control what happens in these cases. Do you not see that? Their policies agree with me. That if I take offence to it and it's regarding my race, it's racial harassment.
[/quote]

You haven't answered one single question I've posed in about 30 posts now.

Again, it is only a racial slur if it infers that you're inferior because of your race , not if it merely makes reference to your race. Why don't you get this ?

It simply can't be racist unless it infers that you're inferior in some way. It doesn't. Yet you seem intent on playing the victim here.

And as for not giving a shite what some twerp in Brussels says .... firstly the court is in Strasbourg. Secondly it's case law is currently binding in most of Europe and in others it's used as a guidance. Thirdly the Lisbon treaty explicity brings the European Court of Human Rights case law in as the standard to be followed in future. You don't really have a choice but to accept it's definition as to what constitutes racism.

I'm not interested what you, a university or some Ontario do gooders association think racism is, because you're wrong.

I would compare the original comment to the joke Rodney Marsh told that got him the sack. The joke was about the stupidity of David Beckham but because it made reference to a tsunami the media made a fuss about it completely ignoring who the fun was being pointed at. Roger's comment was taking the piss out of your self defence skills by making reference to an onion bahji.

So the joke was regarding your ability to defend yourself, not your race.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589205#msg589205 date=1212688106]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589195#msg589195 date=1212686915]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589191#msg589191 date=1212686550]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589186#msg589186 date=1212685980]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589165#msg589165 date=1212684799]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589155#msg589155 date=1212684210]



Are you arguing my point for me? Seriously. The policy that you are on about with regards to Unis etc is the exact same thing I am saying. That if it's deemed offensive by the 'victim' and it's about their race, it's racial harassment. Their policy backs up what I am saying. Not just them but numerous institutional bodies and states etc. Hell even local councils.
[/quote]

Not at all.

My point is, your opinion of what a racist is means nothing.

Neither does mine.

Just because you or me feel or think something does not make it so.

Christ I suck at explaining a point over the net.

Face to face is so much easier.

[/quote]

DB you're still not seeing my point. At all.

I'll try to explain it differently. I mentioned yesterday that if you Google racism etc you'll find shit loads of sites from councils, Unis, schools, the NHS etc who pretty much all say the same thing. That racial harassment is deemed to be when someone finds a comment offensive made to them about their race or colour or background. This can range from jokes to comments to slurs etc. The bottom line is that i take offence to it and it's regarding my race it's racial harassment according to all these institutions. I'm saying the same thing. Like you said, these are policies agreed upon via democratic processes by intelligent individuals.

To you it's no big deal and you can't see why it upset me, but that makes it no less offensive to me. There may be things said to you in future by members of the public that you take offence to regarding your race. The arsehole that said it will possibly never see why you find it offensive and laugh in your face, denying all possibility of it being racist. Hell, he may even tell you that you're over reacting. But the bottom line is that YOU felt offended and it was regarding your race. And nobody has the right to tell you otherwise.

This is the stance that the sites mentioned take, and it's the stance I agree with. It's not for you or other's on this site to tell me what I can and can't find offensive.
[/quote]

Look the most liberal and progressive court in Europe defines racism in a way that completely excludes the onion bahji throwing comment as being racist.

You're completely missing the point on this repeatedly Foureyes, it can only be racist if it infers that you're inferior because of your race. Does it do that ? Everybody's answer here has been no. Including Oncy whose post you agreed with.

It's up to you to decide what offends you, but the highest court in Europe has defined what racism and racist behaviour is.

Offensive does not equal racist.

[/quote]

I couldn't care less what some twerp in Brussels says. I'm concerned with the real world institutions and organisations that I have mentioned. That's what matters because it's in and amongst these institutions that I work and live in. And they say quite clearly that it's racial harassment. You won't accept it. Because it debases your argument. If I went to the Uni in the link, it's THEIR policies that would control what happens in these cases. Do you not see that? Their policies agree with me. That if I take offence to it and it's regarding my race, it's racial harassment.
[/quote]

You haven't answered one single question I've posed in about 30 posts now.

Again, it is only a racial slur if it infers that you're inferior because of your race , not if it merely makes reference to your race. Why don't you get this ?

It simply can't be racist unless it infers that you're inferior in some way. It doesn't. Yet you seem intent on playing the victim here.

And as for not giving a shite what some twerp in Brussels says .... firstly the court is in Strasbourg. Secondly it's case law is currently binding in most of Europe and in others it's used as a guidance. Thirdly the Lisbon treaty explicity brings the European Court of Human Rights case law in as the standard to be followed in future. You don't really have a choice but to accept it's definition as to what constitutes racism.

I'm not interested what you, a university or some Ontario do gooders association think racism is, because you're wrong.

I would compare the original comment to the joke Rodney Marsh told that got him the sack. The joke was about the stupidity of David Beckham but because it made reference to a tsunami the media made a fuss about it completely ignoring who the fun was being pointed at. Roger's comment was taking the piss out of your self defence skills by making reference to an onion bahji.

So the joke was regarding your ability to defend yourself, not your race.




[/quote]

Really? So if somebody calls me a P@#i is that not offensive? Too bloody right it is. And yet in no way whatsoever does it fit that definition you just gave me.

 

[Rosco]

We're arguing different things here.

I'm not saying it's not offensive, I'm saying it doesn't necessarily constitute racism.

You're equating offensiveness with racism, which is wrong.

 

[HC]

I've never understood why any Pakistani would be offended by being called 'Paki' It's like calling some who's British a brit?

 

[Paddy]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=24077.msg589211#msg589211 date=1212688496]
I've never understood why any Pakistani would be offended by being called 'Paki' It's like calling some who's British a brit?
[/quote]

I agree.

Its just short.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=24077.msg589211#msg589211 date=1212688496]
I've never understood why any Pakistani would be offended by being called 'Paki' It's like calling some who's British a brit?
[/quote]

I'd be offended if someone called me a Brit.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg588080#msg588080 date=1212603496]
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=24077.msg588073#msg588073 date=1212603355]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg588070#msg588070 date=1212603241]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=24077.msg588006#msg588006 date=1212598968]
*shockedasfucksmily*
NO Paddy i wouldnt think/say that.
You really are quite fucking distasteful at times.
[/quote]

I know what he means.

I think that phrase is more common in Ireland.

Still distasteful though and I don't think most would say it.

However as he pointed out earlier I think everyone is racist just to varying degrees to different nations.

For instance most Irish take a dislike at the mere mention of the nation Romania.
[/quote]

Love you DB.
[/quote]

F7ck you, you spudmunching, wellie wearing, glenroe repeat watching, white with freakles bastard!
[/quote]

"White with freckles"!!!! You racist bastard!! 😉

 

[mark1975]

Fuck me. Last time I looked at this thread it was 6 pages long.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589210#msg589210 date=1212688486]
We're arguing different things here.

I'm not saying it's not offensive, I'm saying it doesn't constitute racism.

You're equating offensiveness with racism, which is wrong.
[/quote]

Which is exactly what I said those 30 posts ago that you mentioned. You're talking about racial discrimination. I'm talking about racial harassment which is what most people on the street take as being racism.

So back to the point Rosco. According to your definition, someone calling me a 'Paki' isn't racial harassment. Right?

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=24077.msg589211#msg589211 date=1212688496]
I've never understood why any Pakistani would be offended by being called 'Paki' It's like calling some who's British a brit?
[/quote]

HC are you serious mate?

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589195#msg589195 date=1212686915]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589191#msg589191 date=1212686550]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589186#msg589186 date=1212685980]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589165#msg589165 date=1212684799]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589155#msg589155 date=1212684210]



Are you arguing my point for me? Seriously. The policy that you are on about with regards to Unis etc is the exact same thing I am saying. That if it's deemed offensive by the 'victim' and it's about their race, it's racial harassment. Their policy backs up what I am saying. Not just them but numerous institutional bodies and states etc. Hell even local councils.
[/quote]

Not at all.

My point is, your opinion of what a racist is means nothing.

Neither does mine.

Just because you or me feel or think something does not make it so.

Christ I suck at explaining a point over the net.

Face to face is so much easier.

[/quote]

DB you're still not seeing my point. At all.

I'll try to explain it differently. I mentioned yesterday that if you Google racism etc you'll find shit loads of sites from councils, Unis, schools, the NHS etc who pretty much all say the same thing. That racial harassment is deemed to be when someone finds a comment offensive made to them about their race or colour or background. This can range from jokes to comments to slurs etc. The bottom line is that i take offence to it and it's regarding my race it's racial harassment according to all these institutions. I'm saying the same thing. Like you said, these are policies agreed upon via democratic processes by intelligent individuals.

To you it's no big deal and you can't see why it upset me, but that makes it no less offensive to me. There may be things said to you in future by members of the public that you take offence to regarding your race. The arsehole that said it will possibly never see why you find it offensive and laugh in your face, denying all possibility of it being racist. Hell, he may even tell you that you're over reacting. But the bottom line is that YOU felt offended and it was regarding your race. And nobody has the right to tell you otherwise.

This is the stance that the sites mentioned take, and it's the stance I agree with. It's not for you or other's on this site to tell me what I can and can't find offensive.
[/quote]

Look the most liberal and progressive court in Europe defines racism in a way that completely excludes the onion bahji throwing comment as being racist.

You're completely missing the point on this repeatedly Foureyes, it can only be racist if it infers that you're inferior because of your race. Does it do that ? Everybody's answer here has been no. Including Oncy whose post you agreed with.

It's up to you to decide what offends you, but the highest court in Europe has defined what racism and racist behaviour is.

Offensive does not equal racist.

[/quote]

I couldn't care less what some twerp in Brussels says. I'm concerned with the real world institutions and organisations that I have mentioned. That's what matters because it's in and amongst these institutions that I work and live in. And they say quite clearly that it's racial harassment. You won't accept it. Because it debases your argument. If I went to the Uni in the link, it's THEIR policies that would control what happens in these cases. Do you not see that? Their policies agree with me. That if I take offence to it and it's regarding my race, it's racial harassment.

Oh, and regarding other people's opinions, it makes no difference to me. Simply because they have no idea of how my life has been and what forms of racist abuse I have been subjected to and hence, what I will find offensive. There is a logic and a strong argument behind what I'm saying. I'm intelligent enough to believe there is sense behind what i'm saying, and i'm argumentative and stubborn enough to stand my ground, regardless of how much flack I take.
[/quote]

Ok so my name is Patrick.

If someone calls me Paddy as short for my name but I find it offensive and racist referring to me as a Paddy i.e and Irish man does that make them a racist?

Does it hell.

I can see the point you are making but you are wrong.

Just because you think something does not make it so.

Its the same with anything in any walk of life. He didn't even call you a onion thrower he asked did you.

Your stubborness here is tiresome.

Also how the hell does the highest court of LAW!! not apply to the real world.

Thats crazy talk!

 

[HC]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=24077.msg589215#msg589215 date=1212688648]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=24077.msg589211#msg589211 date=1212688496]
I've never understood why any Pakistani would be offended by being called 'Paki' It's like calling some who's British a brit?
[/quote]

I'd be offended if someone called me a Brit.
[/quote]

Haha. Yeah, to be fair; I can see where your coming from with that one.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=24077.msg589211#msg589211 date=1212688496]
I've never understood why any Pakistani would be offended by being called 'Paki' It's like calling some who's British a brit?
[/quote]

Because the word "Brit" doesn't have negative stereotypes attached to it. Paki does because of the way it was used in the past.

So in this sense it's similar to the monkey chants that Foureyes mentioned previously, it's a loaded term.

Onion bhaji isn't a loaded term.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I just wish Gandhi and Bruce Lee had knocked each other out at the beginning of the thread then we wouldn't have had to endure all this racist nonsense.

 

[HC]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589222#msg589222 date=1212688822]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=24077.msg589211#msg589211 date=1212688496]
I've never understood why any Pakistani would be offended by being called 'Paki' It's like calling some who's British a brit?
[/quote]

Because the word "Brit" doesn't have negative stereotypes attached to it. Paki does because of the way it was used in the past.

So in this sense it's similar to the monkey chants that Foureyes mentioned previously, it's a loaded term.

Onion bhaji isn't a loaded term.
[/quote]

I don't personally think you can compare Monkey chants at black people and calling a pakistani a Paki, one can be contextualised, the latter; but however you look at the Monkey chants, it's racist. I see your point though and as I said about 59 pages ago in this thread, saying the Bhaji thing itself isn't racist but I guess like Paki, it's all down to context and interpretation?

 

[HC]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=24077.msg589224#msg589224 date=1212688906]
I just wish Gandhi and Bruce Lee had knocked each other out at the beginning of the thread then we wouldn't have had to endure all this racist nonsense.
[/quote]

*sniggers*

Yeah that said SNIGGERS you cunts.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589209#msg589209 date=1212688377]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589205#msg589205 date=1212688106]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589195#msg589195 date=1212686915]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589191#msg589191 date=1212686550]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589186#msg589186 date=1212685980]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589165#msg589165 date=1212684799]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589155#msg589155 date=1212684210]



Are you arguing my point for me? Seriously. The policy that you are on about with regards to Unis etc is the exact same thing I am saying. That if it's deemed offensive by the 'victim' and it's about their race, it's racial harassment. Their policy backs up what I am saying. Not just them but numerous institutional bodies and states etc. Hell even local councils.
[/quote]

Not at all.

My point is, your opinion of what a racist is means nothing.

Neither does mine.

Just because you or me feel or think something does not make it so.

Christ I suck at explaining a point over the net.

Face to face is so much easier.

[/quote]

DB you're still not seeing my point. At all.

I'll try to explain it differently. I mentioned yesterday that if you Google racism etc you'll find shit loads of sites from councils, Unis, schools, the NHS etc who pretty much all say the same thing. That racial harassment is deemed to be when someone finds a comment offensive made to them about their race or colour or background. This can range from jokes to comments to slurs etc. The bottom line is that i take offence to it and it's regarding my race it's racial harassment according to all these institutions. I'm saying the same thing. Like you said, these are policies agreed upon via democratic processes by intelligent individuals.

To you it's no big deal and you can't see why it upset me, but that makes it no less offensive to me. There may be things said to you in future by members of the public that you take offence to regarding your race. The arsehole that said it will possibly never see why you find it offensive and laugh in your face, denying all possibility of it being racist. Hell, he may even tell you that you're over reacting. But the bottom line is that YOU felt offended and it was regarding your race. And nobody has the right to tell you otherwise.

This is the stance that the sites mentioned take, and it's the stance I agree with. It's not for you or other's on this site to tell me what I can and can't find offensive.
[/quote]

Look the most liberal and progressive court in Europe defines racism in a way that completely excludes the onion bahji throwing comment as being racist.

You're completely missing the point on this repeatedly Foureyes, it can only be racist if it infers that you're inferior because of your race. Does it do that ? Everybody's answer here has been no. Including Oncy whose post you agreed with.

It's up to you to decide what offends you, but the highest court in Europe has defined what racism and racist behaviour is.

Offensive does not equal racist.

[/quote]

I couldn't care less what some twerp in Brussels says. I'm concerned with the real world institutions and organisations that I have mentioned. That's what matters because it's in and amongst these institutions that I work and live in. And they say quite clearly that it's racial harassment. You won't accept it. Because it debases your argument. If I went to the Uni in the link, it's THEIR policies that would control what happens in these cases. Do you not see that? Their policies agree with me. That if I take offence to it and it's regarding my race, it's racial harassment.
[/quote]

You haven't answered one single question I've posed in about 30 posts now.

Again, it is only a racial slur if it infers that you're inferior because of your race , not if it merely makes reference to your race. Why don't you get this ?

It simply can't be racist unless it infers that you're inferior in some way. It doesn't. Yet you seem intent on playing the victim here.

And as for not giving a shite what some twerp in Brussels says .... firstly the court is in Strasbourg. Secondly it's case law is currently binding in most of Europe and in others it's used as a guidance. Thirdly the Lisbon treaty explicity brings the European Court of Human Rights case law in as the standard to be followed in future. You don't really have a choice but to accept it's definition as to what constitutes racism.

I'm not interested what you, a university or some Ontario do gooders association think racism is, because you're wrong.

I would compare the original comment to the joke Rodney Marsh told that got him the sack. The joke was about the stupidity of David Beckham but because it made reference to a tsunami the media made a fuss about it completely ignoring who the fun was being pointed at. Roger's comment was taking the piss out of your self defence skills by making reference to an onion bahji.

So the joke was regarding your ability to defend yourself, not your race.




[/quote]

Really? So if somebody calls me a P@#i is that not offensive? Too bloody right it is. And yet in no way whatsoever does it fit that definition you just gave me.
[/quote]

It is quite obvious that in society to use the phrase P&#i is seen as a derogatry (spelling) term.

People associate P@#i's as being second class.

Asking someone if they throw onions is not.

And nobody thinks any less of someone for throwing a vegatable.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589220#msg589220 date=1212688805]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589195#msg589195 date=1212686915]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589191#msg589191 date=1212686550]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589186#msg589186 date=1212685980]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=24077.msg589165#msg589165 date=1212684799]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=24077.msg589155#msg589155 date=1212684210]



Are you arguing my point for me? Seriously. The policy that you are on about with regards to Unis etc is the exact same thing I am saying. That if it's deemed offensive by the 'victim' and it's about their race, it's racial harassment. Their policy backs up what I am saying. Not just them but numerous institutional bodies and states etc. Hell even local councils.
[/quote]

Not at all.

My point is, your opinion of what a racist is means nothing.

Neither does mine.

Just because you or me feel or think something does not make it so.

Christ I suck at explaining a point over the net.

Face to face is so much easier.

[/quote]

DB you're still not seeing my point. At all.

I'll try to explain it differently. I mentioned yesterday that if you Google racism etc you'll find shit loads of sites from councils, Unis, schools, the NHS etc who pretty much all say the same thing. That racial harassment is deemed to be when someone finds a comment offensive made to them about their race or colour or background. This can range from jokes to comments to slurs etc. The bottom line is that i take offence to it and it's regarding my race it's racial harassment according to all these institutions. I'm saying the same thing. Like you said, these are policies agreed upon via democratic processes by intelligent individuals.

To you it's no big deal and you can't see why it upset me, but that makes it no less offensive to me. There may be things said to you in future by members of the public that you take offence to regarding your race. The arsehole that said it will possibly never see why you find it offensive and laugh in your face, denying all possibility of it being racist. Hell, he may even tell you that you're over reacting. But the bottom line is that YOU felt offended and it was regarding your race. And nobody has the right to tell you otherwise.

This is the stance that the sites mentioned take, and it's the stance I agree with. It's not for you or other's on this site to tell me what I can and can't find offensive.
[/quote]

Look the most liberal and progressive court in Europe defines racism in a way that completely excludes the onion bahji throwing comment as being racist.

You're completely missing the point on this repeatedly Foureyes, it can only be racist if it infers that you're inferior because of your race. Does it do that ? Everybody's answer here has been no. Including Oncy whose post you agreed with.

It's up to you to decide what offends you, but the highest court in Europe has defined what racism and racist behaviour is.

Offensive does not equal racist.

[/quote]

I couldn't care less what some twerp in Brussels says. I'm concerned with the real world institutions and organisations that I have mentioned. That's what matters because it's in and amongst these institutions that I work and live in. And they say quite clearly that it's racial harassment. You won't accept it. Because it debases your argument. If I went to the Uni in the link, it's THEIR policies that would control what happens in these cases. Do you not see that? Their policies agree with me. That if I take offence to it and it's regarding my race, it's racial harassment.

Oh, and regarding other people's opinions, it makes no difference to me. Simply because they have no idea of how my life has been and what forms of racist abuse I have been subjected to and hence, what I will find offensive. There is a logic and a strong argument behind what I'm saying. I'm intelligent enough to believe there is sense behind what i'm saying, and i'm argumentative and stubborn enough to stand my ground, regardless of how much flack I take.
[/quote]

Ok so my name is Patrick.

If someone calls me Paddy as short for my name but I find it offensive and racist referring to me as a Paddy i.e and Irish man does that make them a racist?

Does it hell.

I can see the point you are making but you are wrong.

Just because you think something does not make it so.

Its the same with anything in any walk of life. He didn't even call you a onion thrower he asked did you.

Your stubborness here is tiresome.

Also how the hell does the highest court of LAW!! not apply to the real world.

Thats crazy talk!


[/quote]

No it's not crazy at all. If my stubbornness tires you so, please ignore me.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589210#msg589210 date=1212688486]
We're arguing different things here.

I'm not saying it's not offensive, I'm saying it doesn't necessarily constitute racism.

You're equating offensiveness with racism, which is wrong.
[/quote]

I wish I could type as easily as you.

I've said that 50 times but nobody sees it.

And you are correct.

 

[LadyRed]

I can't believe I missed this thread! My favourite subject and everything, flippin heck, a heads up on PM would have been nice someone!

Anyway.

The first thing that strikes me when reading through, is the fact that Foureyes, for most of the thread has had to justify/explain why he's offended, like it requires a rationalisation. Madness. Someone has deliberately chosen something culture specific to make a derogatory remark. Is that not clear for all to see?

Ross, for an intelliegent person, your simplistic view of race related matters never fails to suprise me. Trying to 'rationalise' racism through legal and dictionary definitions is ridiculous. We're not in court, and no one is talking about 'descrimination' in a legal sense, life, people and emotions just aren't that rigid.

A person's feelings of cultural/racial isloation are not determined by what a court determines, it's about human judgement and emotion.

Foureyes, this isn't the first time a conversation of this nature has been had on the forum, I think you must have missed a few as they were before you started posting, but generally, I give up. I don't think I've ever 'played' teh race card in my life, even when I would have been justified. But I think it's important for people to talk about race in an open way, only then people can deem what's acceptable and what isn't.

But on this forum, anytime the race issue has come up (and I'm sorry if this is hard for people to read), it's always ended up with the ethnic minority(ies) arguing/justifying themselves amongst the masses.

Like there's a relucatance to accept that someone could have said something that could have made someone feel uncomfortable on the basis of their race/culture...which would surely be called racism.

As for what Ross was saying about 'people crying wolf', what the hell has anyone here got to gain, other than challenging ignorance?

People seem to have this idea that anytime someone suggests someone is racist, that they are somehoe after something, or have something to gain.

All most people want is some respect and not to be made to feel bad on the basis of their difference.

Oh, and of all the lovely food we're responsible for, you people pick Onion Bhaji's, flips sake. Could have at least said samosa's or biriyani.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=24077.msg589222#msg589222 date=1212688822]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=24077.msg589211#msg589211 date=1212688496]
I've never understood why any Pakistani would be offended by being called 'Paki' It's like calling some who's British a brit?
[/quote]

Because the word "Brit" doesn't have negative stereotypes attached to it. Paki does because of the way it was used in the past.

So in this sense it's similar to the monkey chants that Foureyes mentioned previously, it's a loaded term.

Onion bhaji isn't a loaded term.
[/quote]

In your eyes. And that's the fucking frustrating part. It's just how you see it. Most the people I grew up with find it all the same. Whether its Paki or curry muncher or onion bhajee thrower. It's all derogatory. It's all offensive. Can you not see that?

And I still don;t see how being called a paki fits your definition of racism.

 

[Atlas]

*is out of breath*
I CAN'T BELIEVE there is a 25 page thread (that went off topic) about racism and Anita or me are no where to be seen!!

*passes on baton to foureyes* keep up the good work!

There is a thread every once in a while re racism, it crops up quite often, and there are quite a few comments people find offensive and although comments might not fit into the structure that Ross has posted up it doesnt mean they are not offensive with a racial undertone.

I think I could probably name a comment like that for every day this site has been running, it's just if people find them offensive enough to comment on, and after that if the mods choose to keep them on or not, and in fairness they have the policy of not deleting stuff which they stick to (mostly).