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Someone should show this to Rafa

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SaRed

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http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=735077&sec=europe&cc=3888

Barcelona's impact on the beautiful game
By Didac Peyret

February 2, 2010

Arsene Wenger believes that top clubs have to make compromises to ensure they play in their own recognisable style - he believes clubs have no hope of making their mark on history without implementing a clear philosophy on the field. For Wenger, the biggest and best sides have a responsibility to the game and must show others what can be achieved.

Everybody has now seen the success of such a model in place at Barcelona. Bringing together an unlikely mixture of art and efficiency, Barca have shown that it is possible to break away from the cautious tactics that have characterised the modern game to win every trophy available to them in 2009.

That success is the result of a philosophy first implemented by Johan Cruyff that has been revived through Pep Guardiola. Cruyff, who played at Camp Nou from 1973 to 1978 and managed the side from 1988 to 1996, transformed Barcelona's mentality. He gave the fans confidence and brought with him the most attacking approach in the club's history.

"My team always play in the same way," he said in the early 90s. "They must go on the attack, dominate the game and avoid the counter-attack. I always say, 'How many forwards do our rivals have? Two? OK - we can play with three defenders'. I see it as almost impossible that we would play four defenders in that situation." The 3-4-3 formation that brought the 1992 European Cup may have become a slightly more conservative 4-3-3 in the current team, but the genesis of the Barca model is clear.

At the heart of it is a certain type of player that has helped define their identity. The game's legendary clubs have held an established identity for decades. Take a look at a club's most famous players and their position, and you'll get an idea of how the team operates on the pitch. In Barcelona's case, they like to keep the ball, so it's no surprise that many of their most symbolic players are midfielders. In fact, Barcelona have created a particular type of midfielder - the No. 4. Luis Milla was to prove the archetype for Cruyff as a footballer with just one objective: retaining the ball and playing an elaborate and expansive game.

Many Barca midfielders since have also embodied these traits - smart, clever in possession, allowing triangular passes and positive combinations. Guardiola was one such player and, in an interview with El Pais some years ago, he said: "The No. 4 has to supply the team in the best way possible up to the halfway line but also to mark the attacking midfielder. It is necessary to find the player who is best equipped to carry out these tasks. Some players are better at defending than attacking and vice versa, but it is necessary to select just one. What cannot happen is to select two players for this job. Doubling up is not worthwhile because, if there are two players in that position, it does not make proper use of the number four."

Guardiola was perhaps the definitive No. 4 at Camp Nou - his successes as a player included six La Liga titles, the European Cup and the Cup Winners' Cup - but the position has evolved in recent times. The No. 4 is now more of a No. 6, with modern players such as Xavi, Andres Iniesta and Sergio Busquets adding more creative passes, more skill and more of a physical presence. Youth prospects like Thiago Alcantara, Jonathan Dos Santos and Sergio Roberto show the trend is continuing at Camp Nou.

The impact of this school of thought goes beyond Barcelona, however. Arsenal, for example, have looked to import part of this philosophy by bringing the likes of Cesc Fabregas and Fran Merida to England from the Catalans' academy, while Real Madrid paid a substantial amount of money for the services of Xabi Alonso - a player of La Masia mould even if he did not emerge from it himself. Current European champions Spain are also reaping the rewards.

As for why this type of midfielder is so successful, Guardiola explains: "We are not a team who play on the counter-attack. Our football is one touch, two touches. Fifteen good touches mean one chance of goal. If we want to create an attacking opportunity too quickly, we lose the ball. Without the ball, there is no control. Without control, there are no chances and, without chances, it is not Barcelona"
 
Ha ha you bit. I was going to comment on that, but it will only turn into a Rafa out thread. I would add that there's more than one way to play a football game and as I recall Rafa beat beat Barca in the Nou Camp, Xavi, number 4 and all.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38753.msg1047972#msg1047972 date=1265104254]
Ha ha you bit. I was going to comment on that, but it will only turn into a Rafa out thread. I would add that there's more than one way to play a football game and as I recall Rafa beat beat Barca in the Nou Camp, Xavi, number 4 and all.
[/quote]

Beating Riijkard's team in a 2 game playoff is one thing, keeping pace with Pep's Barca over the course of 38 games when they rarely lose is another.
 
Remember when the london press started talking about how Arsenal was so great that they had discovered inspired new ways to kick a ball, for instance with their toe, which of course is exactly what you are supposed NOT to do, unless you are a genius amongst a team of geniuses... and there just weren't enough eyes in the world to roll?
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38753.msg1047973#msg1047973 date=1265104598]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38753.msg1047972#msg1047972 date=1265104254]
Ha ha you bit. I was going to comment on that, but it will only turn into a Rafa out thread. I would add that there's more than one way to play a football game and as I recall Rafa beat beat Barca in the Nou Camp, Xavi, number 4 and all.
[/quote]

Beating Riijkard's team in a 2 game playoff is one thing, keeping pace with Pep's Barca over the course of 38 games when they rarely lose is another.
[/quote]

Maybe we'll see how Rafa does when he manages Real Madrid.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38753.msg1047973#msg1047973 date=1265104598]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38753.msg1047972#msg1047972 date=1265104254]
Ha ha you bit. I was going to comment on that, but it will only turn into a Rafa out thread. I would add that there's more than one way to play a football game and as I recall Rafa beat beat Barca in the Nou Camp, Xavi, number 4 and all.
[/quote]

Beating Riijkard's team in a 2 game playoff is one thing, keeping pace with Pep's Barca over the course of 38 games when they rarely lose is another.
[/quote]
True but the top 6 in England is more competitive I think, obviously not discrediting the Barca side in anyway but we did beat the 2nd best team in Spain 5-0 over 2 legs too. But Barca are unique just like we are and if every side played the same way then football would not evolve. Always need a mix of style like in 70s the Bayern and Ajax etc.
 
I like Wenger away from the touchline, but some of the stuff he spouts about 'beautiful football' is purely said with his own interest in mind. I don't remember him talking about 'footballing philosophies' when they were winning the league with the 'Invincible's' - now the silverware has fallen away, it seems to be a weekly occurrence.

I do agree that is is important to have some sort of philosophy and identity, though. It helps give the fans a picture of what the manager is trying to achieve, which in turn allows them to be more patient. This is one thing I cannot see with Rafael Benitez. We just seem to bumble along, constantly fixing problems by creating others.
 
[quote author=rubans link=topic=38753.msg1047987#msg1047987 date=1265107097]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38753.msg1047973#msg1047973 date=1265104598]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38753.msg1047972#msg1047972 date=1265104254]
Ha ha you bit. I was going to comment on that, but it will only turn into a Rafa out thread. I would add that there's more than one way to play a football game and as I recall Rafa beat beat Barca in the Nou Camp, Xavi, number 4 and all.
[/quote]

Beating Riijkard's team in a 2 game playoff is one thing, keeping pace with Pep's Barca over the course of 38 games when they rarely lose is another.
[/quote]
True but the top 6 in England is more competitive I think, obviously not discrediting the Barca side in anyway but we did beat the 2nd best team in Spain 5-0 over 2 legs too. But Barca are unique just like we are and if every side played the same way then football would not evolve. Always need a mix of style like in 70s the Bayern and Ajax etc.
[/quote]

Hmmmm. I seem to recall a certain Mr. Benitez playing a certain 4-2-3-1 system as Valencia boss a few years back!! Unless you mean Rafa himself is unique, because all you can call the form of the team this season is uniquely shit!!
 
Rafa has his own philosophy of football, it might not be a free flowing beautiful game but he has his philosophy and it does revolve a lot around that no4 position in the middle of the park. He has had to change the philosophy to adapt to the premiership but he hasn't managed to strike the right balance with the right players and so he ends up trying to make ends meet.
 
[quote author=Asim link=topic=38753.msg1047999#msg1047999 date=1265109416]
Rafa has his own philosophy of football, it might not be a free flowing beautiful game but he has his philosophy and it does revolve a lot around that no4 position in the middle of the park. He has had to change the philosophy to adapt to the premiership but he hasn't managed to strike the right balance with the right players and so he ends up trying to make ends meet.
[/quote]

Yeah, plus Rafa tries to play two 'number 4s' this season and neither of them have the passing ability to pull it off!! If Mascher was to go to barca it would be to compete with yaya, keita and busquets, not Xavi. As for Lucas.....im not even going to mention him in the same. sentence as Xavi. and as my mind cant be made up on Aqualani yet basically we've been palying without a 'number 4' since alonso left! Basically we have nobody to consistantly pull the strings!
 
You'd have to say that Barca and Arsenal play the best kind of one touch football around, good short passing, good movement and incisive final balls. United play brilliantly effective football and are excellent on the counter attack too, but I don't think anyone can touch Barca for their play, particularly the triangles they create in and around the box, between Xavi and co. We've played some good stuff on occasion, particularly last season, but we don't come close even at our best, even though we are capable of scoring some great 'team' goals.

Barca are just breathtaking.
 
[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=38753.msg1048007#msg1048007 date=1265110072]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=38753.msg1047999#msg1047999 date=1265109416]
Rafa has his own philosophy of football, it might not be a free flowing beautiful game but he has his philosophy and it does revolve a lot around that no4 position in the middle of the park. He has had to change the philosophy to adapt to the premiership but he hasn't managed to strike the right balance with the right players and so he ends up trying to make ends meet.
[/quote]
Yeah, plus Rafa tries to play two 'number 4s' this season and neither of them have the passing ability to pull it off!! If Mascher was to go to barca it would be to compete with yaya, keita and busquets, not Xavi. As for Lucas.....im not even going to mention him in the same. sentence as Xavi. and as my mind cant be made up on Aqualani yet basically we've been palying without a 'number 4' since alonso left! Basically we have nobody to consistantly pull the strings!
[/quote]

Aqua was brought in to replace Alonso end of story. The few games he has played he has passed the ball around nicely, he has managed to get the ball moving and make things happen.
Guardiola has it spot on the no4 has to supply the team, Rafa has obviously tried to get Lucas to play in this kinda position, Lucas is limited in that he makes a gazillion passes but he doesn't 'spray' the ball like Xabi did *sniffs* and like Aqua did in the spurs game..make things tick ( I didnt see his game on Sat, so not sure about that). I don't think Rafa has tried to play 2 no4s he has tried to keep Mascher as the destructive player to ensure we dont get hit hard on the counter with Lucas playing that role which he clearly cant do very well.
 
let's not do rafa a disservice here, there have been times when the football we have played has been fantastic. and the performance from valencia when they taught us a footballing lesson is one of the best displays of football I have ever seen.
 
[quote author=Asim link=topic=38753.msg1048018#msg1048018 date=1265111224]
[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=38753.msg1048007#msg1048007 date=1265110072]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=38753.msg1047999#msg1047999 date=1265109416]
Rafa has his own philosophy of football, it might not be a free flowing beautiful game but he has his philosophy and it does revolve a lot around that no4 position in the middle of the park. He has had to change the philosophy to adapt to the premiership but he hasn't managed to strike the right balance with the right players and so he ends up trying to make ends meet.
[/quote]
Yeah, plus Rafa tries to play two 'number 4s' this season and neither of them have the passing ability to pull it off!! If Mascher was to go to barca it would be to compete with yaya, keita and busquets, not Xavi. As for Lucas.....im not even going to mention him in the same. sentence as Xavi. and as my mind cant be made up on Aqualani yet basically we've been palying without a 'number 4' since alonso left! Basically we have nobody to consistantly pull the strings!
[/quote]

Aqua was brought in to replace Alonso end of story. The few games he has played he has passed the ball around nicely, he has managed to get the ball moving and make things happen.
Guardiola has it spot on the no4 has to supply the team, Rafa has obviously tried to get Lucas to play in this kinda position, Lucas is limited in that he makes a gazillion passes but he doesn't 'spray' the ball like Xabi did *sniffs* and like Aqua did in the spurs game..make things tick ( I didnt see his game on Sat, so not sure about that). I don't think Rafa has tried to play 2 no4s he has tried to keep Mascher as the destructive player to ensure we dont get hit hard on the counter with Lucas playing that role which he clearly cant do very well.
[/quote]

Call it what you want but we dont have anyone pulling the strings at the moment. Aqualanis only done that in one game and no one so thats why i said my mind isnt made up on him.....also why i said we dont have anyone who can consistently do it yet. Which we dont! Lucas seems to be too nervous (or just ruined by rafa) to play like he did at gremio and mascher just isnt that player who can spray balls. So maybe rafa doesnt play 2 number 4s....but he sure as hell has 2 players trying to do the job of one!
 
[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=38753.msg1047996#msg1047996 date=1265109240]
[quote author=rubans link=topic=38753.msg1047987#msg1047987 date=1265107097]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38753.msg1047973#msg1047973 date=1265104598]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38753.msg1047972#msg1047972 date=1265104254]
Ha ha you bit. I was going to comment on that, but it will only turn into a Rafa out thread. I would add that there's more than one way to play a football game and as I recall Rafa beat beat Barca in the Nou Camp, Xavi, number 4 and all.
[/quote]

Beating Riijkard's team in a 2 game playoff is one thing, keeping pace with Pep's Barca over the course of 38 games when they rarely lose is another.
[/quote]
True but the top 6 in England is more competitive I think, obviously not discrediting the Barca side in anyway but we did beat the 2nd best team in Spain 5-0 over 2 legs too. But Barca are unique just like we are and if every side played the same way then football would not evolve. Always need a mix of style like in 70s the Bayern and Ajax etc.
[/quote]

Hmmmm. I seem to recall a certain Mr. Benitez playing a certain 4-2-3-1 system as Valencia boss a few years back!! Unless you mean Rafa himself is unique, because all you can call the form of the team this season is uniquely shit!!
[/quote]
Meant the club as a whole has a unique identity, and in regards to our football, yet it's sh1te this season but loved watching us play last season and since 1990, the best football we played, so wasn't complaining last season.
The whole Arsenal football thing I find quiet annoying, sometimes you think the way the commentators are so waxi lyrical, that they invented football. I still remember them before Wenger...
 
"ho cares about beautiful football?" says some SCM doyens. "It is winning that matters"
 
It's usually because they keep winning with their beautiful football, Mike.

Winning is still everything.
 
[quote author=SaRed link=topic=38753.msg1047955#msg1047955 date=1265102293]
Some players are better at defending than attacking and vice versa, but it is necessary to select just one. What cannot happen is to select two players for this job. Doubling up is not worthwhile because, if there are two players in that position, it does not make proper use of the number four."
[/quote]

I like this philosophy. We have 2 players doing a 1 man job.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38753.msg1048068#msg1048068 date=1265115207]
[quote author=SaRed link=topic=38753.msg1047955#msg1047955 date=1265102293]
Some players are better at defending than attacking and vice versa, but it is necessary to select just one. What cannot happen is to select two players for this job. Doubling up is not worthwhile because, if there are two players in that position, it does not make proper use of the number four."
[/quote]

I like this philosophy. We have 2 players doing a 1 man job....and doing it badly
[/quote]
 
Barca yes.

Arsenal no.

Obviously I would love LFC to play beautiful football and win too, like Barca.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38753.msg1048405#msg1048405 date=1265181607]
Is there anything more boring and pointless in football than a 'philosophy'?
[/quote]

Yeah, we could just have no real 'footballing' philosophy, just one built on hard work, closing down and giving the ball back to the opposition after two or three passes.

Oh.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38753.msg1048430#msg1048430 date=1265187075]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38753.msg1048405#msg1048405 date=1265181607]
Is there anything more boring and pointless in football than a 'philosophy'?
[/quote]

Yeah, we could just have no real 'footballing' philosophy, just one built on hard work, closing down and giving the ball back to the opposition after two or three passes.

Oh.
[/quote]

That non-philosophy like other 'real philosophies' , is boring and especially so when written down but every bit as valid.
 
Benitez's philosophy looked pretty good when Valencia taught us a lesson in 'controlling the game' at Anfield.

I just think the players hes signed are not up to it and it doesnt lend itself to Premiership football.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38753.msg1048041#msg1048041 date=1265112629]
let's not do rafa a disservice here, there have been times when the football we have played has been fantastic. and the performance from valencia when they taught us a footballing lesson is one of the best displays of football I have ever seen.
[/quote]

Rafas Valencia side were known throughout Spain as a workman like eqvuivalent (style wise) of the team Mourinho built with Chelsea, ruthlessly efficient but they were never likely to inspire the neutrals. Didnt they win the league with Baraja as top scorerer with 8 or 9 goals. The performance they put in against us was something like the one we gave agaisnt Madrid last year, thrilling but in no way indicative of their general style of play.

We started some recent games with 6 defenders and 2 holding midfielders, thats 8 out of 10 defensive players, that would never happen at Barca, if you tried that you would be out the door and rightly so, a superior team with superior resources that goes out to stifle their opponents and play the percentage game is nothing short of cowardly
 
[quote author=RedStar link=topic=38753.msg1048743#msg1048743 date=1265227415]
We started some recent games with 6 defenders and 2 holding midfielders, thats 8 out of 10 defensive players, that would never happen at Barca, if you tried that you would be out the door and rightly so, a superior team with superior resources that goes out to stifle their opponents and play the percentage game is nothing short of cowardly
[/quote]

Fully agree here.
 
[quote author=RedStar link=topic=38753.msg1048743#msg1048743 date=1265227415]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38753.msg1048041#msg1048041 date=1265112629]
let's not do rafa a disservice here, there have been times when the football we have played has been fantastic. and the performance from valencia when they taught us a footballing lesson is one of the best displays of football I have ever seen.
[/quote]

Rafas Valencia side were known throughout Spain as a workman like eqvuivalent (style wise) of the team Mourinho built with Chelsea, ruthlessly efficient but they were never likely to inspire the neutrals. Didnt they win the league with Baraja as top scorerer with 8 or 9 goals. The performance they put in against us was something like the one we gave agaisnt Madrid last year, thrilling but in no way indicative of their general style of play.

We started some recent games with 6 defenders and 2 holding midfielders, thats 8 out of 10 defensive players, that would never happen at Barca, if you tried that you would be out the door and rightly so, a superior team with superior resources that goes out to stifle their opponents and play the percentage game is nothing short of cowardly
[/quote]
Firstly, it wasn't Baraja, it was the striker can't remember his name and got around 15 goals I think.
Secondly, the 4-0 against Real Madrid was after a 4-1 against Utd away, and we scored also 4 against Chelsea and Arsenal in the space of the month.
I thought I was delusional, showed last year Benitez was capable of getting a side to play the best football I have seen at LFC in 20 yrs and from what I rememeber even a lot of foreign press gave LFC a lot of credit which was a turn around to how we were percieved before.
Just shame we couldn't build on it this season, but let's not tarnish the memories some awesome performances from last season. If we had 6 defenders defendign for 1st 60 mins against Chelsea at Anfield last season, we might have been in another champ leagues final.
 
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