I know I know I know...but that was then, this is now. #thirdtimelucky
Post Fulham Relief
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I know I know I know...but that was then, this is now. #thirdtimelucky
Hang on that was in December and yet you keep banging on about this teams lack of character?
Where do I keep banging on about lack of character? There is a difference between character and winning trophies.
You have said at various times they have shit mentality, you would swap the whole eskwad for the 2005 vintage, Mane is the only winner, they lack guts etc etc.
Im not finding the posts Patrick, if im wrong then fair play....but im not.
Seems odd to me that you reference a game back in december as the moment you felt they showed the character to win the league (if we do) but for the last couple of weeks have been at the rooftops alluding to the fact we are mentally weak and lack winning mentality.
Am I wrong?
Well, that was shit. And also brilliant.
It looked beautifully set up for a typical away game at Fulham: lovely sunshine, they've got nothing really to play for, we had a decent squad to pick a first XI from, what could go wrong? Well, almost everything. Liverpool had so much possession, we had twice as many shots and made twice as many passes, but it was all a bit disjointed and the final ball and final shit was all too often awry.
Thankfully, we had Mane, the game-changing match-winner extraordinaire. And Milner. Good old, nerveless, Mr Reliable. And also three points.
Allison (5) God, who to blame for this? Whatever, it was a horrible bit of miscommunication all round, and Allison was too hesitant. Had one other save to make, but apart from that largely untroubled.
TAA (5) Hard to score this. He was very involved and was constant threat, but his delivery and passing was just far too inconsistent, often over and underhit, so that it was hard to predict what he was going to do with the ball. What's not in doubt is that he is technically capable of a range of passing that most other fullbacks simply couldn't even dream of, but he was too hit and miss in execution.
Virgil (5) Doesn't make many mistakes, so perhaps it is unfair to pore over this one, but it was a thankfully rare aberration. Mitrovic wasn't given much change, and he can be a handful.
Matip (6) Decent display, handled the aerial threat well enough, despite the battering of the wind and the burly Mitrovic. Had one effort at goal was hilariously 50p-headed, but otherwise fine.
Robertson (6) Got through a remarkable amount of work, with his typically tireless marauding creating space and opportunity. Delivered one lovely pass that should have been rewarded - was it Wijnaldum who fucked it up? - but like TAA, he was very wayward at times with the ball. Still, he was pretty good overall, but still not at his best.
Fabinho (6) HIs tackling is important, but he chucked in a couple of reckless flying challenges that could have seen him off the pitch. Kept it more disciplined after half-time and some of his long passing was impressive and kept the play stretched.
Wijnaldum (6) Invisible for the first half an hour, he was much better after the break, and even got into the box a few times. Obviously didn't score though
Lallana (6) Worked hard, and he revels in his reputation as the "leader of the press" or whatever the fuck knobheads call it. He's more useful when we don't have the ball, as in possession he's too slow to move the ball on, and ends up doing so many slow-motion Cruyff turns he's going to hit magma one day. Didn't threaten the goal.
Salah (5) Was very involved and saw plenty of the ball, but his alarming lack of goals appears to be preying on his mind, as he turned into trouble and coughed up possession too often, and snatched at shots and missed one or two easy chances again. Average again.
Firmino (5) Nice interchange of passes for the Mane goal, and put in a decent shift, but was infuriating lax with the ball and fucked up so many promising attacks. And would having a shot or two fucking hurt?
Mane (8) Usually when you win the title, there's a few players who have a season of magnificent inspiration. In defence, we have two: Virgil and Allison. You also need a player who will supply goals reliably. That was Salah last season, and the first half of this. But he's had a horrible slump since January, and hasn't been as prolific (same with Firmino). But Mane has kept the challenge going with a quite brilliant and relentless run of form at home and in Europe. 11 goals in 11 games is it? Scored one, hit the bar, won the penalty. Superb. Again.
Subs:
Milner (6) Hoof-sliced that clearance and dropped us in the shit, but made up for it with a penalty that saved us and won the points. And his face showed what it meant.
Origi (6) Added some much-need pace and drive, working the left hand side well.
It looked beautifully set up for a typical away game at Fulham: lovely sunshine, they've got nothing really to play for, we had a decent squad to pick a first XI from, what could go wrong? Well, almost everything. Liverpool had so much possession, we had twice as many shots and made twice as many passes, but it was all a bit disjointed and the final ball and final shit was all too often awry.
Thankfully, we had Mane, the game-changing match-winner extraordinaire. And Milner. Good old, nerveless, Mr Reliable. And also three points.
Allison (5) God, who to blame for this? Whatever, it was a horrible bit of miscommunication all round, and Allison was too hesitant. Had one other save to make, but apart from that largely untroubled.
TAA (5) Hard to score this. He was very involved and was constant threat, but his delivery and passing was just far too inconsistent, often over and underhit, so that it was hard to predict what he was going to do with the ball. What's not in doubt is that he is technically capable of a range of passing that most other fullbacks simply couldn't even dream of, but he was too hit and miss in execution.
Virgil (5) Doesn't make many mistakes, so perhaps it is unfair to pore over this one, but it was a thankfully rare aberration. Mitrovic wasn't given much change, and he can be a handful.
Matip (6) Decent display, handled the aerial threat well enough, despite the battering of the wind and the burly Mitrovic. Had one effort at goal was hilariously 50p-headed, but otherwise fine.
Robertson (6) Got through a remarkable amount of work, with his typically tireless marauding creating space and opportunity. Delivered one lovely pass that should have been rewarded - was it Wijnaldum who fucked it up? - but like TAA, he was very wayward at times with the ball. Still, he was pretty good overall, but still not at his best.
Fabinho (6) HIs tackling is important, but he chucked in a couple of reckless flying challenges that could have seen him off the pitch. Kept it more disciplined after half-time and some of his long passing was impressive and kept the play stretched.
Wijnaldum (6) Invisible for the first half an hour, he was much better after the break, and even got into the box a few times. Obviously didn't score though
Lallana (6) Worked hard, and he revels in his reputation as the "leader of the press" or whatever the fuck knobheads call it. He's more useful when we don't have the ball, as in possession he's too slow to move the ball on, and ends up doing so many slow-motion Cruyff turns he's going to hit magma one day. Didn't threaten the goal.
Salah (5) Was very involved and saw plenty of the ball, but his alarming lack of goals appears to be preying on his mind, as he turned into trouble and coughed up possession too often, and snatched at shots and missed one or two easy chances again. Average again.
Firmino (5) Nice interchange of passes for the Mane goal, and put in a decent shift, but was infuriating lax with the ball and fucked up so many promising attacks. And would having a shot or two fucking hurt?
Mane (8) Usually when you win the title, there's a few players who have a season of magnificent inspiration. In defence, we have two: Virgil and Allison. You also need a player who will supply goals reliably. That was Salah last season, and the first half of this. But he's had a horrible slump since January, and hasn't been as prolific (same with Firmino). But Mane has kept the challenge going with a quite brilliant and relentless run of form at home and in Europe. 11 goals in 11 games is it? Scored one, hit the bar, won the penalty. Superb. Again.
Subs:
Milner (6) Hoof-sliced that clearance and dropped us in the shit, but made up for it with a penalty that saved us and won the points. And his face showed what it meant.
Origi (6) Added some much-need pace and drive, working the left hand side well.
I would say you have taken those out of context.
The 2005 team won stuff and as of right now you can’t argue this team will go on to win more. Hopefully they will but the point was they haven’t so far.
I love Mane because of his attitude above everything else but he’s obviously a freak and not the norm. Not like the rest are shit, he’s just on another level. The like of VVD, Milner and even Henderson have great fighting spirit too.
The last few weeks have highlighted what I’ve said all season and in pre season. We don’t have enough depth compared to City to win the league imo. The players are doing everything they can. The lack of killer instinct or going for it against Everton and Utd I put completely on Klopp as it looked like it was his direction that held us back.
I actually think we’ve done amazingly well to in the hunt for the title as I don’t think overall we’ve been very good this season. We’ve picked up a lot of points without playing well so actually their mentality is a strong point.
We still need City to drop the ball mind but it would still be amazing when we have to bring on Origi and they can bring on Jesus, Mahrez, Sane, Silva etc.
Hmmmmm *side-eye*
The funny thing is, when people talk about our attack and the lack of goals etc, it actually turns out that we have scored the exact same amount of goals this season and we had last season at the same time. But conceded 17 goals less (before the Fulham game mind).
68-34 in 17/18, and 68-17 in 18/19.
Same amount of goals scored, 17 goals less conceded, 13 more points on the board and 1 point behind City compared to 21 last season.
We've been fucking amazing, truth be told.
68-34 in 17/18, and 68-17 in 18/19.
Same amount of goals scored, 17 goals less conceded, 13 more points on the board and 1 point behind City compared to 21 last season.
We've been fucking amazing, truth be told.
Yeah, we're just playing a much more conservative style of football which doesn't look as easy on the eye.
It's our best chance of actually winning shit though. Klopp said the other day in the pre match Bayern presser when asked about being determined to win after losing finals that we didn't lose because we were a worse side, but "because we didn't defend well enough as a team, & against the best sides that will cost you".
Everything he has done this season is about making sure we are solid enough to be able to defeat the best sides if we come up against them, & to try to make sure we have enough in our legs to push on at the end of the season.
Personally I think he's been too conservative in the league, esp in January, so it's taken the side longer to start to find an attacking rhythm again afterwards (IMO the one thing that separates us from a truly great side is being unable to change the tempo of a match decisively & quickly when we need to), & that has cost us points (West ham & Leicester esp, I'd take draws at Goodison & Old Trafford every season). Whether that is a mistake that will cost us the league or not we will have to see, it could be that holding back that couple of games longer means we have more in our legs & can get some vital points over citeh in the final throes of the season, who knows?
It's our best chance of actually winning shit though. Klopp said the other day in the pre match Bayern presser when asked about being determined to win after losing finals that we didn't lose because we were a worse side, but "because we didn't defend well enough as a team, & against the best sides that will cost you".
Everything he has done this season is about making sure we are solid enough to be able to defeat the best sides if we come up against them, & to try to make sure we have enough in our legs to push on at the end of the season.
Personally I think he's been too conservative in the league, esp in January, so it's taken the side longer to start to find an attacking rhythm again afterwards (IMO the one thing that separates us from a truly great side is being unable to change the tempo of a match decisively & quickly when we need to), & that has cost us points (West ham & Leicester esp, I'd take draws at Goodison & Old Trafford every season). Whether that is a mistake that will cost us the league or not we will have to see, it could be that holding back that couple of games longer means we have more in our legs & can get some vital points over citeh in the final throes of the season, who knows?
How do we change this though? The obvious answer would be a midfielder who can do this expertly, but the best examples of those midfielders (Alonso, Pirlo, Scholes) seem to be the complete antithesis of what Klopp needs from a midfielder. I think Fabinho is the closest thing we have to an answer to that, but he's no where near the level of the best in that regard though.
"IMO the one thing that separates us from a truly great side is being unable to change the tempo of a match decisively & quickly when we need to" does not necessarily mean that classic DLM pivot/ playmaker (although he has used similar type players in his best Dortmund teams maybe? Sahin, for example)
It could also mean the sort of player who picks up the ball and makes a decisive run and/or pass that creates a goal from very little, like your Coutinho or other AM player.
Although that isn't quite "tempo" as expressed here, admittedly.
It's not as simple as one player (although I do think a midfield can begin to dictate tempo), because we often seem to be determined to be solid & conservative thinking we're gonna be facing a team going all out to score, & it's clear if we can switch gears into 'These are shite, let's just fucking run at them & blow them away for twenty minutes' we'd batter them, but are incapable of doing it.
Against Utd & Everton I think that was the case, & also Munich second leg, although Munich was obviously an improved version of that as we did manage to step it up to a certain degree.
If, IF, we could switch between that defensive style into pressing like madmen & running at pace, then switch back all in the same match more often I genuinely think we'd be unstoppable. I doubt it's anywhere near as simple as that sounds though, due to the way we prepare for individual matches & assume they will play against us, as well as balancing the side to play in certain ways.
Incidentally, the Fulham performance I think was a symptom of not having time to train to play against a side as poor as them. We continually overplayed it like we were still facing a Bayern quality defence, instead of a load of shite, had we had time to prepare I suspect we'd have played a much more simple game & it would have been much more effective.
Against Utd & Everton I think that was the case, & also Munich second leg, although Munich was obviously an improved version of that as we did manage to step it up to a certain degree.
If, IF, we could switch between that defensive style into pressing like madmen & running at pace, then switch back all in the same match more often I genuinely think we'd be unstoppable. I doubt it's anywhere near as simple as that sounds though, due to the way we prepare for individual matches & assume they will play against us, as well as balancing the side to play in certain ways.
Incidentally, the Fulham performance I think was a symptom of not having time to train to play against a side as poor as them. We continually overplayed it like we were still facing a Bayern quality defence, instead of a load of shite, had we had time to prepare I suspect we'd have played a much more simple game & it would have been much more effective.
Ha ha. *nervously looks away
I think our results have been amazing and our back 5 for the most part.
Our football has not.
A bench of top quality attacking talent.
Yeah, sometimes you just need someone who will put their foot on the ball and move things with purpose. It's not necessarily about controlling the pace of the game, because we can pass it around at will and do take the sting out of teams that way, but there are occasions like early in the second half, when we just lose it and can barely string two passes together (but every side, even City, go through that). The main thing we lack, as we've said for a while, is someone in the centre of the park who can drop deep to help rebuild an attack. Firmino and AOC together last season sort of compensated for the lack of Coutinho, AOC had the drive from midfield and the occasional long distance goal, while Firmino had the trickery in tight areas, in and around the box. We've lost both of those assets this season through AOC's injury and Firmino's relatively poor form.
Shaqiri doesn't seem trusted and Keita will probably play deeper if he ever gets going, so it's still a problem position/role ultimately.
I know it is different in the league, but for the rest of the games it is almost like a cup run.
We won the CL with important contributions from Mellor, Pongolle, Le Tallec, Traore and Carson etc.
Bloody foreigners.
I think you missed Jons point mate.
Thanks count - perfect
I don’t agree with his point in our current set up.
Then why answer mystics question when you don't agree with it?
So you don't think we have an issue/missed opportunity in not being able to switch tempo in game between a more conservative style & a fast counter attacking one?
He said I missed the point, I was clarifying I didn’t miss the point. I don’t think we miss the ability to change the tempo. We miss the ability to make changes off the bench that don’t lower the ability of the team. Hence a stronger bench would solve the percieved problem.
I think we can and do it. What we lack is different players to come in that are at a similar ability to our current best 11. As I’ve said elsewhere we bring on Origi, Shaq, Keita, Lallana of Studge.
City bring on Sane, B Silva, Mahrez, Gundagon, Jesus.
That’s what we are missing.
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