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Oh That's Just Great ! (Except It Isn't Really)

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[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37201.msg989172#msg989172 date=1258309466]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989165#msg989165 date=1258309358]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=37201.msg989158#msg989158 date=1258309185]
We'd have won the league last year too if we had Ferenc Puskas instead of Robbie Keane
[/quote]

We'd have won it had we signed Arshavin instead of Keane.
[/quote]

Or Zidane
[/quote]

No be serious for a second.

We didn't win the league because our manager made numerous bad decisions in the transfer market.

He did the same again this summer.

We're going rapidly backwards under Rafa at the moment and I do get the impression his time is finally coming to a close. It was the same with Houllier when he was on the way out, lots would defend him right up until the last minute but it was clear for quite a while that he was finished as Liverpool manager.

I fully expect the arguments in favour of Benitez to get more demented as the season goes on.
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=37201.msg989162#msg989162 date=1258309313]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=37201.msg989106#msg989106 date=1258306400]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37201.msg989094#msg989094 date=1258304509]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=37201.msg989085#msg989085 date=1258302878]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37201.msg989081#msg989081 date=1258301927]
We became a selling club under Rafa.
[/quote]

We sold Alonso...and that's it
[/quote]
Crouch, Keane, Alonso..
replaced by who?

[/quote]

Rubbish post.

Crouch was also offered to stay but couldn't be guarantee to play every week because of Torres. Keane, although a very good footballer, did not cut the mustard at Liverpool.

Alonso (and Crouch) wanted to go. It looks like Macher also wants to go. Attributing this to Liverpool is a selling club is utter nonsense.


[/quote]

Also, Alonso, relaced with Aquilani.

*wonders if Le Chacal will keep dodging this bullet*
[/quote]

He's still dodging the bullet.

Posters with the "Single Agenda" always dodges the bullet. Why let facts get in the way of the "Single Agenda".
 
Once again Im not defending Houiller,
He failed miserably at the end...
Rafa's reign after 4-5 years is very similar, finishing 2nd, awfull transfers, out of CL...
many similarities..
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989179#msg989179 date=1258309734]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37201.msg989172#msg989172 date=1258309466]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989165#msg989165 date=1258309358]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=37201.msg989158#msg989158 date=1258309185]
We'd have won the league last year too if we had Ferenc Puskas instead of Robbie Keane
[/quote]

We'd have won it had we signed Arshavin instead of Keane.
[/quote]

Or Zidane
[/quote]

No be serious for a second.

We didn't win the league because our manager made numerous bad decisions in the transfer market.

He did the same again this summer.

We're going rapidly backwards under Rafa at the moment and I do get the impression his time is finally coming to a close. It was the same with Houllier when he was on the way out, lots would defend him right up until the last minute but it was clear for quite a while that he was finished as Liverpool manager.

I fully expect the arguments in favour of Benitez to get more demented as the season goes on.
[/quote]

The arguments against Benitez 'are' already demented.
 
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=37201.msg989185#msg989185 date=1258309845]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989179#msg989179 date=1258309734]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37201.msg989172#msg989172 date=1258309466]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989165#msg989165 date=1258309358]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=37201.msg989158#msg989158 date=1258309185]
We'd have won the league last year too if we had Ferenc Puskas instead of Robbie Keane
[/quote]

We'd have won it had we signed Arshavin instead of Keane.
[/quote]

Or Zidane
[/quote]

No be serious for a second.

We didn't win the league because our manager made numerous bad decisions in the transfer market.

He did the same again this summer.

We're going rapidly backwards under Rafa at the moment and I do get the impression his time is finally coming to a close. It was the same with Houllier when he was on the way out, lots would defend him right up until the last minute but it was clear for quite a while that he was finished as Liverpool manager.

I fully expect the arguments in favour of Benitez to get more demented as the season goes on.
[/quote]

The arguments against Benitez 'are' already demented.
[/quote]

Care to expand on that ?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989179#msg989179 date=1258309734]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37201.msg989172#msg989172 date=1258309466]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989165#msg989165 date=1258309358]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=37201.msg989158#msg989158 date=1258309185]
We'd have won the league last year too if we had Ferenc Puskas instead of Robbie Keane
[/quote]

We'd have won it had we signed Arshavin instead of Keane.
[/quote]

Or Zidane
[/quote]

No be serious for a second.

We didn't win the league because our manager made numerous bad decisions in the transfer market.

He did the same again this summer.

We're going rapidly backwards under Rafa at the moment and I do get the impression his time is finally coming to a close. It was the same with Houllier when he was on the way out, lots would defend him right up until the last minute but it was clear for quite a while that he was finished as Liverpool manager.

I fully expect the arguments in favour of Benitez to get more demented as the season goes on.
[/quote]
Thanks Ross.
Spot on.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989179#msg989179 date=1258309734]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37201.msg989172#msg989172 date=1258309466]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989165#msg989165 date=1258309358]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=37201.msg989158#msg989158 date=1258309185]
We'd have won the league last year too if we had Ferenc Puskas instead of Robbie Keane
[/quote]

We'd have won it had we signed Arshavin instead of Keane.
[/quote]

Or Zidane
[/quote]

No be serious for a second.

We didn't win the league because our manager made numerous bad decisions in the transfer market.

He did the same again this summer.

We're going rapidly backwards under Rafa at the moment and I do get the impression his time is finally coming to a close. It was the same with Houllier when he was on the way out, lots would defend him right up until the last minute but it was clear for quite a while that he was finished as Liverpool manager.

I fully expect the arguments in favour of Benitez to get more demented as the season goes on.
[/quote]

Who's to say Manager X wouldn't have made different mistakes that would have cost us the title? Was it Rafa's fault Stevie's goal didn't count against Stoke? Or that we were missing Torres for such a long time? Or that Keane missed countless sitters before his 'spot' became the bench? Yes, he made mistakes. What manager doesn't? Only one manager a year makes mistakes and can say, "Still won the league." As of now, unless it's Mourinho or maybe Hiddink, I don't think there's a better manager available ...

He's had a horrible start to the year - and I'm not making excuses though there are many to be made. The season isn't OVER yet, though I get the feeling many want it to be so that our club can re-start the rebuilding process. Let's see if we can claw our way back into the league and somehow get another miracle in Europe.

I know why you hate Rafa - and some of the reasons are valid and I don't have much to counter with. But put it aside, get behind your team and hope we don't fire Rafa with the club in a very bleak situation both internally (how many Spanish players like Torres or Reina will re-assess their positions without the manager who took their games to the level they are currently at) and financially (Rafa goes if we miss out on 4th) ...
 
I don't think it's as much arguing in favour of Rafa as it is arguing against the way many of these anti-Rafa tirades are being framed.

If you post a reasoned argument detailing Rafa's flaws, you'll have the forums ear. If you pollute every thread with agenda driven drivel, you'll get castigated.

It's really not that hard.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989187#msg989187 date=1258309917]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=37201.msg989185#msg989185 date=1258309845]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989179#msg989179 date=1258309734]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37201.msg989172#msg989172 date=1258309466]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989165#msg989165 date=1258309358]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=37201.msg989158#msg989158 date=1258309185]
We'd have won the league last year too if we had Ferenc Puskas instead of Robbie Keane
[/quote]

We'd have won it had we signed Arshavin instead of Keane.
[/quote]

Or Zidane
[/quote]

No be serious for a second.

We didn't win the league because our manager made numerous bad decisions in the transfer market.

He did the same again this summer.

We're going rapidly backwards under Rafa at the moment and I do get the impression his time is finally coming to a close. It was the same with Houllier when he was on the way out, lots would defend him right up until the last minute but it was clear for quite a while that he was finished as Liverpool manager.

I fully expect the arguments in favour of Benitez to get more demented as the season goes on.
[/quote]

The arguments against Benitez 'are' already demented.
[/quote]

Care to expand on that ?
[/quote]

Well lets see.

Rafa has bought badly - Torres, Alonso, Johnson, Mascherano, Aqualina, Yossi Agger. These players suggest he hasn't. Of course there are some players that are bad transfers but name a manager that hasn't bought badly?

Rafa has made decisions on the pitch - I can think of plenty of games when he's made great decisions on the pitch. Beating RM and then beating Man Utd, Istanbul, Juventas, Barca. Once again we can all pick games where's made decisions and once again name a manager that hasn't made a bad decision?

Rafa hasn't won us the league - How long did it take SAF? Has Rafa had a magnitude in quantity of money to achieve like Mourinho? Last season was close, still not good enough but close. We had the most attacking team, scored the most goals and played some of the best football any of us have seen in a recent Liverpool team.

For every demented argument for Rafa there is already demented argument against.
 
Benitez isn't that good, but there's next to no chance of us bringing in a better manager if he does get binned any time soon.
 
Every manager makes mistakes.
The best ones dont repeat the same mistakes.

As you said Keni, its not that hard.
I have no particular agenda against Rafa,
I have an agenda against constant baffling decisions, awful transfers, stubborness, bad man-managment skills, good players and staff members leaving our club.
 
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=37201.msg989198#msg989198 date=1258310559]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989187#msg989187 date=1258309917]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=37201.msg989185#msg989185 date=1258309845]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989179#msg989179 date=1258309734]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37201.msg989172#msg989172 date=1258309466]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989165#msg989165 date=1258309358]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=37201.msg989158#msg989158 date=1258309185]
We'd have won the league last year too if we had Ferenc Puskas instead of Robbie Keane
[/quote]

We'd have won it had we signed Arshavin instead of Keane.
[/quote]

Or Zidane
[/quote]

No be serious for a second.

We didn't win the league because our manager made numerous bad decisions in the transfer market.

He did the same again this summer.

We're going rapidly backwards under Rafa at the moment and I do get the impression his time is finally coming to a close. It was the same with Houllier when he was on the way out, lots would defend him right up until the last minute but it was clear for quite a while that he was finished as Liverpool manager.

I fully expect the arguments in favour of Benitez to get more demented as the season goes on.
[/quote]

The arguments against Benitez 'are' already demented.
[/quote]

Care to expand on that ?
[/quote]

Well lets see.

Rafa has bought badly - Torres, Alonso, Johnson, Mascherano, Aqualina, Yossi Agger. These players suggest he hasn't. Of course there are some players that are bad transfers but name a manager that hasn't bought badly?

Rafa has made decisions on the pitch - I can think of plenty of games when he's made great decisions on the pitch. Beating RM and then beating Man Utd, Istanbul, Juventas, Barca. Once again we can all pick games where's made decisions and once again name a manager that hasn't made a bad decision?

Rafa hasn't won us the league - How long did it take SAF? Has Rafa had a magnitude in quantity of money to achieve like Mourinho? Last season was close, still not good enough but close. We had the most attacking team, scored the most goals and played some of the best football any of us have seen in a recent Liverpool team.

For every demented argument for Rafa there is already demented argument against.
[/quote]

So out of the 60+ players Rafa has signed you can list 6 that are good. And one of them hasn't yet started a game for us. That's hardly a convincing argument. I posted a while back regarding transfers and showed how we had spent 50m in the past two years and gotten no return for it. Rafa is awful at managing his resources.

Johnson - good player, but we're a worse team this season partly because of introduction. So you'd have to question how good a signing it was, particularly considering how promising Martin Kelly looked on his debut. It could be easily argued that hanging onto Arbeloa for one more year (and letting him go for free), while blooding Kelly for the RB role would have been better for the team. Particularly considering we'd have had money left over to get another attacking player.

You don't actually have an argument in favour of Rafa when you examine it closely. You're basically saying that because other managers have made mistakes Rafa should be excused all of his and we should carry on with him at the helm.
 
plenty of players would dispute "bad man-management skills"

I agre with Hooz, regardless of opinion of Rafa, if we replace him then obviously it needs to be with someone better. At this point that could be tricky.
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37201.msg989202#msg989202 date=1258310977]
Every manager makes mistakes.
The best ones dont repeat the same mistakes.
[/quote]

That's a very good point and one that's been highlighted many times over the years by myself, Vlad (I can remember him mentioning this repeatedly in particular) and Oncey to name a few.

It's quite unfortunate however that just at a time when it seemed as though Rafa is finally coming around to certain things that his squad has started to fall apart. Though yes, he is not blameless in this respect either.

The thing is Lech, most of the forum at one time or another has been anti-Rafa... this is not RAWK... however if everyone voiced their discontent in every thread, it would be a pretty dull and shit forum.
 
This thread is a yawn fest. Where's the anger at the pussy whipped argie? The manager isn't at fault for everything!
 
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=37201.msg989211#msg989211 date=1258311339]
This thread is a yawn fest. Where's the anger at the pussy whipped argie? The manager isn't at fault for everything!


[/quote]

I have sympathy for Mascherano, he's getting a raw deal having to play alongside Lucas.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37201.msg989207#msg989207 date=1258311240]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37201.msg989202#msg989202 date=1258310977]
Every manager makes mistakes.
The best ones dont repeat the same mistakes.
[/quote]

That's a very good point and one that's been highlighted many times over the years by myself, Vlad (I can remember him mentioning this repeatedly in particular) and Oncey to name a few.

It's quite unfortunate however that just at a time when it seemed as though Rafa is finally coming around to certain things that his squad has started to fall apart. Though yes, he is not blameless in this respect either.

The thing is Lech, most of the forum at one time or another has been anti-Rafa... this is not RAWK... however if everyone voiced their discontent in every thread, it would be a pretty dull and shit forum.
[/quote]
I partly agree Keni...
Look at my first post, it created some debate didnt it?
Thats what the forum is all about, isnt it?
The forum would be dull if we couldnt discuss about our manager's decisions.
I barely posted for the last 3 weeks because of my military duty...

I see many similarities between GH and Rafa's reigns.
You disagree, fair enough.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37201.msg989194#msg989194 date=1258310284]
I don't think it's as much arguing in favour of Rafa as it is arguing against the way many of these anti-Rafa tirades are being framed.

If you post a reasoned argument detailing Rafa's flaws, you'll have the forums ear. If you pollute every thread with agenda driven drivel, you'll get castigated.

It's really not that hard.
[/quote]

I actually have 60% of a post, about the reasons why Rafa should be off, saved on my laptop and as yet unfinished. And it'll probably stay that way because the only argument people have against is to point out other managers have made mistakes.

I know it would get about 4 responses.
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37201.msg989218#msg989218 date=1258311790]
I see many similarities between GH and Rafa's reigns.
You disagree, fair enough.
[/quote]

I never commented on whether I agree or disagree. I just said that it's a comparison that seems to be dragging a lot of threads down recently.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989215#msg989215 date=1258311654]
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=37201.msg989211#msg989211 date=1258311339]
This thread is a yawn fest. Where's the anger at the pussy whipped argie? The manager isn't at fault for everything!


[/quote]

I have sympathy for Mascherano, he's getting a raw deal having to play alongside Lucas.


[/quote]

I don't. How is that rational? It's a temporary situation. Besides, how is playing next to a capable partner bad for him?
 
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=37201.msg989227#msg989227 date=1258312188]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989215#msg989215 date=1258311654]
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=37201.msg989211#msg989211 date=1258311339]
This thread is a yawn fest. Where's the anger at the pussy whipped argie? The manager isn't at fault for everything!


[/quote]

I have sympathy for Mascherano, he's getting a raw deal having to play alongside Lucas.


[/quote]

I don't. How is that rational? It's a temporary situation. Besides, how is playing next to a capable partner bad for him?
[/quote]

ah fuck off Fabio
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989219#msg989219 date=1258311880]
I actually have 60% of a post, about the reasons why Rafa should be off, saved on my laptop and as yet unfinished. And it'll probably stay that way because the only argument people have against is to point out other managers have made mistakes.

I know it would get about 4 responses.
[/quote]

Heh, so you're just going to stick to baiting people?

Post it.

As mentioned earlier, this isn't a forum full of RCDNWers. It's been pretty noticeable, I'm sure you'll agree, that people have been arguing against the poster rather than the points they've been making in recent months.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37201.msg989224#msg989224 date=1258312091]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37201.msg989218#msg989218 date=1258311790]
I see many similarities between GH and Rafa's reigns.
You disagree, fair enough.
[/quote]

I never commented on whether I agree or disagree. I just said that it's a comparison that seems to be dragging a lot of threads down recently.
[/quote]
Its hardly my fault..
Must be some truth in it then...
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37201.msg989232#msg989232 date=1258312356]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989219#msg989219 date=1258311880]
I actually have 60% of a post, about the reasons why Rafa should be off, saved on my laptop and as yet unfinished. And it'll probably stay that way because the only argument people have against is to point out other managers have made mistakes.

I know it would get about 4 responses.
[/quote]

Heh, so you're just going to stick to baiting people?

Post it.

As mentioned earlier, this isn't a forum full of RCDNWers. It's been pretty noticeable, I'm sure you'll agree, that people have been arguing against the poster rather than the points they've been making in recent months.
[/quote]

There isn't an argument in favour of Benitez.

If someone wants to go and make it then I'll listen.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989228#msg989228 date=1258312255]
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=37201.msg989227#msg989227 date=1258312188]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989215#msg989215 date=1258311654]
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=37201.msg989211#msg989211 date=1258311339]
This thread is a yawn fest. Where's the anger at the pussy whipped argie? The manager isn't at fault for everything!


[/quote]

I have sympathy for Mascherano, he's getting a raw deal having to play alongside Lucas.


[/quote]

I don't. How is that rational? It's a temporary situation. Besides, how is playing next to a capable partner bad for him?
[/quote]

ah fuck off Fabio
[/quote]

How wude!

*runs to papa oncy for the banning stick*
 
Heh, what? Where did that come from?

You have something you feel is worth posting, judging by the fact that you've saved it. Post it.

Then we can have a debate if that's what you want...
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37201.msg989237#msg989237 date=1258312601]

Heh, what? Where did that come from?

You have something you feel is worth posting, judging by the fact that you've saved it. Post it.

Then we can have a debate if that's what you want...
[/quote]

1. It's not finished, and i don't have time to do it tonight.

2. There won't be a debate.
 
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=37201.msg989236#msg989236 date=1258312578]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989228#msg989228 date=1258312255]
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=37201.msg989227#msg989227 date=1258312188]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989215#msg989215 date=1258311654]
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=37201.msg989211#msg989211 date=1258311339]
This thread is a yawn fest. Where's the anger at the pussy whipped argie? The manager isn't at fault for everything!


[/quote]

I have sympathy for Mascherano, he's getting a raw deal having to play alongside Lucas.


[/quote]

I don't. How is that rational? It's a temporary situation. Besides, how is playing next to a capable partner bad for him?
[/quote]

ah fuck off Fabio
[/quote]

How wude!

*runs to papa oncy for the banning stick*
[/quote]

You're silly LOL !
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37201.msg989241#msg989241 date=1258312775]
1. It's not finished, and i don't have time to do it tonight.

2. There won't be a debate.
[/quote]

Heh, lost faith in your fellow 6CMers? Or is it just that your article is going to put an end to the forum in one fell swoop?

Post it when it's done and prove your point one way or another.
 
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