Because Dalglish didn't spend 20M on him?
maxi
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Because Dalglish didn't spend 20M on him?
Corrected that for ya.
You know what ? - one of the problems we have had recently is that a lot of teams come to Anfield and defend in numbers. Today I was watching MOTD and WBA were doing the same at Man City. But Man City just passed their way through with some neat stuff. I think Maxi is one of the few along with Suarez who has the ability to do that shit. Also mmia - I agree with you, I think we got Maxi overload on this thread though - he has played in games where he has not scored and looked out of sorts.
I'm on me phone. What am I missing?
Whilst I do have some sympathy for that argument given I don't really think Maxi is the be all and end all either, I think it's worth highlighting that people's frustration over his lack of playing time is probably best exmeplified by these goals stats from this season:
Downing - 2
Henderson - 1
Carroll - 7
Maxi - 6
It's a rudimentary way of making an argument I know, but given the fucking combined 26 minutes the little Argentinian has played all season long in comparison to those other gimps, you can kinda see the point.
Ryan - yes I do see the point, but against Blackburn we did something different - we actually got forward in numbers into the final third. Our players have not been doing that this season, and for the first time they seemed to not give a shit and just attack even with 10 men. Perhaps they only do that when Maxi plays or something, I don't know - I just want us to win the FA Cup, see Man City win the title as opposed to Man United, Chelsea to come 5th and not fluke to win the CL (so Torres ends up with nothing) and this shitty season to end - is that too much to ask ?
For me that part is the nub of the whole game; check the second goal - yes I love the way Maxi gets in the right place but that's one of the very few times I've noticed us with more than 3 in the vicinity of goal outside a set piece. The ball was more than likely to fall to one of us - glad it fell to the little Argentine cause that just meant it was only going in one place.
The "getting forward in numbers" thing is slightly misleading mate.
For a start, we played most of the first half on the counter attack. Both Henderson and Spearing (prior to the sending off anyway) were sitting deep as the two deep-lying playmakers (bit generous I know) which gave Shelvey the freedom to attack without worry. Strangely Blackburn let him go time and again. Bellamy's game is absolutely 100% built on getting the fast break. He loves sitting and then exploding away quickly. Also, Carroll was instructed to play high and on the last man, so there was a reasonable gap between him and the midfield. Thus when he did get it, or we did move forward it was done quickly to get in support of him, so looked like we were firing players forward. In reality, it was never more than 4 players - Carroll, Shelvey, Bellamy and Maxi - but because they'd sprung forward so quickly and cos Blackburn didn't seem to want to defend the gap in between defence and midfield - it looked like more.
We always attack with at least 4 players, so last night was no different. Usually it's Suarez, Gerrard, Downing and one of Kuyt or Henderson. The difference is that the opposition are usually sitting deeper, the midfield will have dropped and there'll be less open spaces than last night. Strangely Blackburn didn't seem to care too much about setting up defensively - I suspect cos they looked at our teamsheet and thought they could afford to have a go, that and them also not thinking Shelvey was capable of getting into the hole and influencing.
Anyway, after all that - we got the same, maybe even less numbers forward, as we always do mate. It just looked like more cos we broke quickly into space that was afforded to us.
I thought I was going to stop typing there but I've just remembered that Maxi's second goal came as a result of Skrtel finding Bellamy in the most amount of space I've ever seen in my life. That would never happen normally. Lax defending.
Heh, got in there before you.
That's down to bad defending more so than throwing numbers forward mate.
Ryan we may often attack with 4,but how often do we see 2+ players in the box when we attack? How often had suarez danced into the box with no support? How often gas downing looked up and saw no one to cross to?
Yes we may attack as a quartet, but normally its static.
It's been our major flaw this season.
Yes we may attack as a quartet, but normally its static.
It's been our major flaw this season.
Pretty much spot on. I've watched a few Man U games this season and every time they attack from the wings they seem to have at least 4 players in and around the box. How they do it? Not sure. I think its because they defend higher up on the pitch and it allows their CMs to go in to the penalty box. Its just constant pressure somehow.
United are the perfect counter attack side. I was thinking of this when I went for my coffee just before. They love to break quickly through the wings; usually through Valencia who can move the game forward 40-50 yards with his pace.
Teams that counter attack nearly always look to get it wide first. There's a reason; when the defending team is trying to get numbers back quickly they'll always run straight down the middle, always get numbers in front of the box. Thus, getting it to a Valencia will always ensure he has space, and at best - one defender to contend with. If he beats that man, then it'll be one-on-one in and around the box. The centre half will pick up the striker, the other full-back will pick up the other wide man, meaning there's always space for the late attacking midfielder.
Chelsea were amazing at this under Mourinho. Sit deep with Makelele, Essien, etc and then explode through either Robben or Duff on the wing. If either one of those two beats their man, it's one-on-one in the box and Lampard reaps the rewards as the late incoming midfielder. It happened time and time again.
It's also crucial that your striker gets there to support. Have a look at the third goal in this game (Valencia's goal).
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiYuGMbHkyU&feature=related
You can't actually see it from the highlights but Wellbeck is the one who heads clear the corner (trust me) from which that attack originates. Valencia breaks free down the right, and Wellbeck has fucking hammered it to get to the other end in support. By the time Valencia is entering the box, the two Wolves centre-halves are still contending themselves with Wellbeck. Now you could say that's bad defending on their part, but if Wellbeck hasn't made that run then they don't bother with him at all and they can shift over and deal with Valencia. That's completely unselfish running, and brilliant team play from Wellbeck. He's an absolute fucking star that kid, but that's a different story.
Attacking with pace from deep. We haven't done it enough this season.
Anyway, I've gone off on a tangent. I agree with the points above that we got probably more players in and around the box to score on wednesday - and maybe that's a reflection of Maxi's goalscoring instinct in comparison to say Downing, but it does help when you're breaking free quickly due to the opposition affording you the time and space to do so. That doesn't happen too often.
Actually, it's the second goal and here it is in full flow - http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/wolves-0-manchester-united-5-motd/
10 mins, 45 seconds in. Look at Wellbeck's run, and the centre halves confusion. I realise this is slightly off topic, I just love it is all.
10 mins, 45 seconds in. Look at Wellbeck's run, and the centre halves confusion. I realise this is slightly off topic, I just love it is all.
Two reasons:
1 - they are more carefree. You don't just get that from saying 'go and attack' - it's borne out of 15/20 years of playing attack minded football and insitllling attacking mentalities in your players.
2 - they work harder. Compare what I just showed from Wellbeck to what Carroll does. It's fucking night and day.
Did you watch the second video? I absolutely love Wellbeck's effort.
It was amazing, to be honest.
Kinda reminded me of a young Gerrard (cliché I know).
Welbeck drags two defenders away from Valencia. The other two defenders were to slow to catch Valencia.
It's combination of brilliant unselfish play from Welbeck and poor defending.
I really wish we had a fast paced winger like Valencia though and what a finish.
Kinda reminded me of a young Gerrard (cliché I know).
Welbeck drags two defenders away from Valencia. The other two defenders were to slow to catch Valencia.
It's combination of brilliant unselfish play from Welbeck and poor defending.
I really wish we had a fast paced winger like Valencia though and what a finish.
Yeah, well it depends on the tactics you're gonna go for I suppose. If your'e going to be a counter-attacking side like the current United one or the Chelsea 04/05 one then you absolutely have to have fast wingers.
By contrast, the current Man City side prefers to attack through continuous ball retention, looking to get players into holes, and neat short passes. Typically Italian through Mancini I suppose. There's no amazing pace in their side, but with Tevez, Aguero, Nasri, and Silva they've got players who can find space and open up a defence.
Spurs and Arsenal have gone for a bit of both worlds; through Walcott they can attack quickly, then they've got the Rosicky's, RVP's, Benayoun's - who want to get in between the defence and the midfield. Spurs are the same - attack at pace through Bale and Lennon, if that doesn't work then you've got Modric, Kranjcar and VDV who can go the other way. Their issue is that their squad just isn't big enough.
I like the idea of having both options. Away from home you absolutely 100% have to be able to counter at pace. Teams will come at you more and there'll be more open space. Being a counter-attacking side at home is pointless, cos teams come to Anfield and park the fucking bus. Which is why the City approach of having quality players who can find space in tight situations is imperative. Look at City's home record - amazing.
In fairness to Maxi he hasn't done anything wrong while on the pitch this season but for people to claim he was some sort of goal machine from midfield in previous years is just plain wrong. He had many rubbish games where he offered very little both going forward or in defence. ( A purple patch at the end of the season not withstanding)
His goals did highlight the glaringingly obvious that we need to get more men in the box when we attack. We just never seem to flood opponents penalty areas the way the top teams do.
His goals did highlight the glaringingly obvious that we need to get more men in the box when we attack. We just never seem to flood opponents penalty areas the way the top teams do.
Nobody did. The argument was that he should be kept in the squad (at least that was my argument with you anyway) due to him being a relative goal-threat, and a good squad player. You said he should have been sold immediately.
Well not much point keeping somone on high wages that doesn't play for 5 months at a time when fully fit is there?
Dreamy, you need a squad. You need players that can come off the bench and contribute when others are tired / injured / out of form / suspended/ when the game requires them.
Park, Berbatov, Rosicky, Kalou, Benayoun, Kranjcar, Owen, Lennon, etc etc... You win fuck all with 11 players mate. Having guys on the bench and in the squad that can keep a ball and can score a goal, and are seemingly happy to play that bit-part role are vital. Letting them go for next to no reason has absolutely no value.
I never said we didn't but if you have a 'squad player' who isn't a youth player coming through or a senior coming back frominjury surely he must feature more often than Maxi has.
Especially when you consider our form and lack of a goal threat.
It simply makes zero sense to have him at the club if he never gets game time. Even more so if he actually scores when he does get the odd run out.
I can't see why he was kept.
Especially when you consider our form and lack of a goal threat.
It simply makes zero sense to have him at the club if he never gets game time. Even more so if he actually scores when he does get the odd run out.
I can't see why he was kept.
So squad players should only be comprised of "youth players coming through" or "seniors coming back from injury" - is that what you're saying?
Dreamy, just to point out to you the importance of squad players; I took the liberty of going through the Man Utd treble winning squad of 1999. Chose them because they've been effetcively the best side in the premier league in the last 20 years, and if you want to win the FA Cup, the Premier League and the Champions League in one go, you need a squad.
(Now before I do this, in no way am I saying you don't need to have "youth players" or talent coming through your ranks. Course you do, but to suggest your bench should comprise half of them is fucking insane)
Anyway, here's their "best 11". Hate that fucking term, and ideology but let's go with it for the sake of the debate.
--------------------------SCHMEICHEL--------------------------
NEVILLE---------STAM---------JOHNSEN--------IRWIN
BECKHAM-----KEANE-----SCHOLES-----GIGGS
---------------------YORKE-----COLE-------------------
Now, more pertinently, here's the list of players who didn't get in that team, who sat on the bench and who made up the squad.
Solksjaer
Sheringham
Butt
Phil Neville
Henning Berg
David May
Jesper Blomqvist
Jordi Cruyff
Wes Brown.
That's an unbelievably good squad Dreamy, packed full of fucking winners, and not one player on that 'bench' could be counted as a "youth player or a senior player coming back from injury". Keane and Scholes get suspended for the CL final and you can bring in the likes of Butt and Blomqvist to your midfield. Yorke and Cole aren't doing a thing so you've go the luxury of bringing on Solksjaer and Sheringham to win the game? Unbelievable. That was 13 years ago Dreamy; the importance of having a top class squad hasn't diminished since then either.
You can have your preferred criteria of players, but you won't be winning any trebles.
(Now before I do this, in no way am I saying you don't need to have "youth players" or talent coming through your ranks. Course you do, but to suggest your bench should comprise half of them is fucking insane)
Anyway, here's their "best 11". Hate that fucking term, and ideology but let's go with it for the sake of the debate.
--------------------------SCHMEICHEL--------------------------
NEVILLE---------STAM---------JOHNSEN--------IRWIN
BECKHAM-----KEANE-----SCHOLES-----GIGGS
---------------------YORKE-----COLE-------------------
Now, more pertinently, here's the list of players who didn't get in that team, who sat on the bench and who made up the squad.
Solksjaer
Sheringham
Butt
Phil Neville
Henning Berg
David May
Jesper Blomqvist
Jordi Cruyff
Wes Brown.
That's an unbelievably good squad Dreamy, packed full of fucking winners, and not one player on that 'bench' could be counted as a "youth player or a senior player coming back from injury". Keane and Scholes get suspended for the CL final and you can bring in the likes of Butt and Blomqvist to your midfield. Yorke and Cole aren't doing a thing so you've go the luxury of bringing on Solksjaer and Sheringham to win the game? Unbelievable. That was 13 years ago Dreamy; the importance of having a top class squad hasn't diminished since then either.
You can have your preferred criteria of players, but you won't be winning any trebles.
Ryan I was under the impression you had little time for Maxi. Didn't you refer to him as a non entity before?
I like Maxi, always have. He shows excellent movement. Won't hurt a team on his own, but he'll find space and drift into dangerous positions. I loved watching Maxi, Kuyt, Suarez and Meireles interchange last season.
I like Maxi, always have. He shows excellent movement. Won't hurt a team on his own, but he'll find space and drift into dangerous positions. I loved watching Maxi, Kuyt, Suarez and Meireles interchange last season.
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