Lovren's got his work cut out...
- Thread starter Ryan
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Status
Clearly they didn't watch the game either.Echo Poll
Christ, I'm beginning to wonder if only 1 person watched the game. I'm annoyed I didn't watch it properly because I completely agree with that poll
It's a bit generous to Gerrard !
Fair point
another fact about this goal is, no one expcted such a brilliant back heel from soton player and that is why I would blame both Gerrard (not really but after watching Wanayama, he was fucking tracking almost every shit except that error to head the ball in the box again for our second goal so I expect the same thing from Gerrard too) and Lucas that they couldnt realise that Clyne's run can create an opportunity there. They just couldnt anticipate that that soton player will be able to play that pass otherwise I am sure Lucas or Gerrard would have covered it.
But what I agree with is, our defensive errors are collective and Skrtel ot GJ have just become scapegoats for everything. I dont mean to say that we dont have to imrpve on Skrtel and GJ but replacing them wont solve the problems; it all comes to down to defensive instructions to every player, being organised and how to close the space and be compact, that has to come from a coach.
But what I agree with is, our defensive errors are collective and Skrtel ot GJ have just become scapegoats for everything. I dont mean to say that we dont have to imrpve on Skrtel and GJ but replacing them wont solve the problems; it all comes to down to defensive instructions to every player, being organised and how to close the space and be compact, that has to come from a coach.
.
guys look at that goal again...now just notice the movement of players, we have two lines of 4 and they have four players who are in advanced position. So in a closed space, it is almost 8 players of our team vs their 4 players. I mean numerically there shouldnt even a be chance creation for the opposite team, so conceding is like a crime for me.
1. Here we notice a complete lack of organization, may be it is BR's fault. It starts from Glen's small movement away from the goal, can any person explain me in simple words what was the need that GJ went that side. There is no frracking way on this earth to explain it. Right.
2. Then there is a gap between Lovren and GJ, so I wont say anything about Lovren's movement at all. Because he probably tried to fill the gap which was created by the great defender GJ, there by to track Tadic and get close to him and also push our defensive line.
3. We can clearly see that as soon as Lovren started moving forward to push the line, our other defenders are just static and dont respond to what Lovren is doing. And they simple dont push for it. So our whole defensive line is a mess and basically there is no cohesive effort to stay compact. He needed to do that since Tadic tried to get into the small gap between the defensive line and MF line.
4. Now when Tadic is moving Skrtel raises his hand for something, god knows what was that. But he can also push and make it one line of defense instead of this school-teen defending.
5. When Clyne has the ball, he is absolutely under no pressure. I dont understand why Sterling is simply backing off. So this whole movement could have been probably stopped just by simple pressing and sticking to the person who has the ball.
So i dont know if you guys realise this but problem is bigger than simply 'Lucas failed to track the run' or 'skrtel completely ball watching'. I know it is just 1 goal on the opening day of our current season but there is no doubt that there is lack of defensive structure, organisation, clear instructions (by coach), no principles about how to defend when defending deep. Lets see if we can improve on these aspects as the season goes; but BR has to take the responsibility about it than just simply blabbering in interview that goal came because we failed to track the run.
There is a player out on the right touchline that you don't quite see in the image - check out the very beginning and the end of the image and you'll see the guy. That's probably why Johnson pushed out wide. Probably lack of communication between Sterling and Johnson resulted in Sterling sitting back to defend the outside line as well, thus opening up the passage for Clyne.
Skrtel's arm was raised probably as a reaction to his call to Lovren to watch Tadic who was leaving his zone and coming in from Lovren's blind side to receive the ball from Clyne. I don't think there was anything wrong with that. The only problem was his lack of movement, which Ryan and Carra already highlighted further up.
The moment Lucas stopped short and let Ward Prowse (I think) continue his run further up while he sank back and watched Lovren guard Tadic, he already picked up the responsibility on Clyne. Gerrard could've helped by shouting for Lucas to check the runner, but it was much more Lucas' own responsibility - he had handed over his man to Gerrard, and now he needed to watch Clyne.
It's not Rodgers' fault that you failed to spot the wide man in the image, but yes, Sterling / Johnson didn't do the best on that initial play in terms of coordinating who does what.
Skrtel's arm was raised probably as a reaction to his call to Lovren to watch Tadic who was leaving his zone and coming in from Lovren's blind side to receive the ball from Clyne. I don't think there was anything wrong with that. The only problem was his lack of movement, which Ryan and Carra already highlighted further up.
The moment Lucas stopped short and let Ward Prowse (I think) continue his run further up while he sank back and watched Lovren guard Tadic, he already picked up the responsibility on Clyne. Gerrard could've helped by shouting for Lucas to check the runner, but it was much more Lucas' own responsibility - he had handed over his man to Gerrard, and now he needed to watch Clyne.
It's not Rodgers' fault that you failed to spot the wide man in the image, but yes, Sterling / Johnson didn't do the best on that initial play in terms of coordinating who does what.
ok I didnt see the wide man so that means, GJ's moving is justified, no it isnt. But all other points I mentioned still hold true and BR has to resolve this issue. It aint simply the reason of GJ, Sterling or Lucas, it is about how we set up.
Glenjo's slow jog into the box there really bothers me. Manquillo's positioning is perfect. Skrtel is not used to playing with a RB that will cover his right side so leaves only when the danger from Clyne is more pressing than the pass to Pelle. Johnson jogs instead of busts a gut in a clearly dangerous situation. Lucas is too slow to track Clyne. Tadic with a beautiful piece of invention to beat Lovren.
I'm glad we pushed on to score. We'll do better with either Flanno or Moreno in the side. We were much more defensively solid than last year. It was a great start.
Oh Oh Oh!
We have the best midfield in the world
Alberto Moreno, Jon Flanno, and Javier Manquillo - not bad in the fullback department. 🙂
I'm glad we pushed on to score. We'll do better with either Flanno or Moreno in the side. We were much more defensively solid than last year. It was a great start.
Oh Oh Oh!
We have the best midfield in the world
Alberto Moreno, Jon Flanno, and Javier Manquillo - not bad in the fullback department. 🙂
Johnson is clearly not at fault. That angle does not show the other player out wide, ahead of Sterling, so Johnson started towards him to cover then checked when the ball went inside instead, the ball outside was the obvious one.
I've added Gerrard to the list of those culpable though (adding to Skrtel, my #1 culprit, and Lucas) because he's ball watching and fails totally to see Clyne (though to be fair it's a brilliant run at pace and it would have been hard to stop him) who runs right between Lucas (ball watching not checking for danger) and Gerrard.
I've added Gerrard to the list of those culpable though (adding to Skrtel, my #1 culprit, and Lucas) because he's ball watching and fails totally to see Clyne (though to be fair it's a brilliant run at pace and it would have been hard to stop him) who runs right between Lucas (ball watching not checking for danger) and Gerrard.
Amazing the way a 20 year old loanee most people wrote off from the word go, can do the basics and get tight to his man and compress the space throughout the move, but Skrtel and Johnson leave a chasm of space between themselves with it all to do. At least Skrtel tries to get across, so that's something, but Johnson just casually jogs back, which is both typical and fucking depressing, because we've seen it a million times before.
Johnson is at fault. Look at the initial line of four, Manquillo and Skrtel compress the space on their side, Lovren steps out because Johnson leaves the gap. If Johnson is there, he closes the space to help Lovren. Even Carragher said, there is too much space between Lovren and Johnson, which forces the former to make the decision to step out. It's basic stuff. He's not the only culprit in the move, but if we're looking at "mistakes as a unit", then in the back line, him and Skrtel are the biggest culprits. Skrtel is at least in position, his only error is he doesn't anticipate the run and close the gap quick enough, which can be attributed partly to the ingenuity of the back heel, Johnson from the word go is out of position.
Ryan's entire first post was about this.
That did impress me watching the game, he's very good, his main weakness is getting caught out of position when going forward, however when he's back and defending, he's very good at it. It's a shame in that clip as he's clearly following Skrtel's line, which makes him look like he's failing to push up, when the reality is it's Skrtel and Johnsons piss poor line.
Good read as always, Ryan.
Here is my take on it.
The poor defensive record and the 51 goals were an indirect product of a poor defensive midfield equally balanced with a back 4 without a leader. Now we have Lovren - focus will move to DM now - it has to - it's so obvious.
It's is an undeniable fact that SG is more than just a player. He is a Legend and we must approach the problem in that manner. We cant pull a Cech or a Carragher and just bench him. He has to be phased out just right. This is Brendan Rodgers biggest challenge this season by far in order to keep the positive progressive mindset in the squad. The upset in the dressing room if SG showed up with a frown would be far worse than him failing to deliver at maximum on the pitch. He has to play when he is fit - he has to be happy. So who can actually cover the holes at center defensive midfield with him?! Can we change the system to accommodate him even more than we already have? Lucas/SG is stillborn. So is Allen/SG. Can/SG is unproven - as far as I can tell Can isnt mobile enough to cover either. That said SG positional issues when we are off the ball (exposed to great extent against Saints) will always leave holes that the back 4 cant cope with. DM was never SG's best position and it never will be. I think that the problem is that not one of the players we have to play with SG would be mobile enough to actually cover the gaps SG leaves behind. Lucas looks unfit and lazy. Allen has too little physical presence to do the job. Can is a joker. I don't know enough about him. He looks better on the ball and has a demanding physical presence but at the same time he looks a little slow and might not cover enough ground to get the job done.
This all leads me to thinking that we need a Defensive midfielder who is world class to deal with the problem in the correct manner. We more or less need this player as badly as we need a replacement for Suarez. Problem of course is that the budget isnt there to cover both positions so we just have to hope that we get Reus, Falcao or something proven upfront to cover the hole in the ground that Suarez left - 31 goals from open play and 12 assists is more than a big ask. If we play Gerard at DM our poor defensive record will continue. And we will play him - we have to.
I think this season will be that last for SG and therefor I think this season will be transitional. Only a full on replacement for Suarez would do and I doubt it's out there.
We will see the above exposed Monday against City, sadly. Question is if people will persist talking about a back 4 problem or if we will move to the actual problem at this stage - DM and Gerrard.
And another observation:
I think the tendency with SG falling down between the centerbacks when we start the build up play will hurt us sooner rather than later. It's too easy to close down for the opposition. We are missing a vital player at in the engine room when he drops that deep. I have to say that I think it's pretty much the biggest tactical fault made by BR so far during his tenure. Would be interesting to hear some thoughts on this
Here is my take on it.
The poor defensive record and the 51 goals were an indirect product of a poor defensive midfield equally balanced with a back 4 without a leader. Now we have Lovren - focus will move to DM now - it has to - it's so obvious.
It's is an undeniable fact that SG is more than just a player. He is a Legend and we must approach the problem in that manner. We cant pull a Cech or a Carragher and just bench him. He has to be phased out just right. This is Brendan Rodgers biggest challenge this season by far in order to keep the positive progressive mindset in the squad. The upset in the dressing room if SG showed up with a frown would be far worse than him failing to deliver at maximum on the pitch. He has to play when he is fit - he has to be happy. So who can actually cover the holes at center defensive midfield with him?! Can we change the system to accommodate him even more than we already have? Lucas/SG is stillborn. So is Allen/SG. Can/SG is unproven - as far as I can tell Can isnt mobile enough to cover either. That said SG positional issues when we are off the ball (exposed to great extent against Saints) will always leave holes that the back 4 cant cope with. DM was never SG's best position and it never will be. I think that the problem is that not one of the players we have to play with SG would be mobile enough to actually cover the gaps SG leaves behind. Lucas looks unfit and lazy. Allen has too little physical presence to do the job. Can is a joker. I don't know enough about him. He looks better on the ball and has a demanding physical presence but at the same time he looks a little slow and might not cover enough ground to get the job done.
This all leads me to thinking that we need a Defensive midfielder who is world class to deal with the problem in the correct manner. We more or less need this player as badly as we need a replacement for Suarez. Problem of course is that the budget isnt there to cover both positions so we just have to hope that we get Reus, Falcao or something proven upfront to cover the hole in the ground that Suarez left - 31 goals from open play and 12 assists is more than a big ask. If we play Gerard at DM our poor defensive record will continue. And we will play him - we have to.
I think this season will be that last for SG and therefor I think this season will be transitional. Only a full on replacement for Suarez would do and I doubt it's out there.
We will see the above exposed Monday against City, sadly. Question is if people will persist talking about a back 4 problem or if we will move to the actual problem at this stage - DM and Gerrard.
And another observation:
I think the tendency with SG falling down between the centerbacks when we start the build up play will hurt us sooner rather than later. It's too easy to close down for the opposition. We are missing a vital player at in the engine room when he drops that deep. I have to say that I think it's pretty much the biggest tactical fault made by BR so far during his tenure. Would be interesting to hear some thoughts on this
Being ba
Or by the way, if Gerrard is to play deep midfielder, he cannot afford to ballwatch. We don't play the Juventus system where Pirlo is afforded luxuries because Pogba will clean up. Against Southampton (as against Villa last year) once we were pressed we looked vulnerable to the runners from deep.
Now there is a man who watched the match with more than one eye. I actually thought Skrtel was the biggest culprit in defence in failing to push up. His instincts are awlyas to drop deep-- he's not comfortable holding a high line. The reason why Carragher was brought in for him at the end of 2011/12 are as valid today as then. Now I have heard that Sakho is a front foot defender, so maybe he will come in sooner rather than later. Personally, I think we'll see morre of either Agger or Sakho in there pretty soon or the same frailties will undo us again this season because at leat they are likely to do the same thing as Lovren. We do not seem to have a structure in defending (at least I can't see any).
Or by the way, if Gerrard is to play deep midfielder, he cannot afford to ballwatch. We don't play the Juventus system where Pirlo is afforded luxuries because Pogba will clean up. Against Southampton (as against Villa last year) once we were pressed we looked vulnerable to the runners from deep.
I typed exactly that (albeit in a more eloquent and engaging fashion) in the first post of this thread. Then reiterated it again about 15 posts later dude.
Sorry Mark can't agree with that at all.
Glenjo had an awful game but at fault at all for the goal ..no. He had to cover the run from his left (not shown in that video) and he would have been slated to high heaven on here if he hadn't. That, and not the back-heel, was the obvious outlet for Tadic.
I watched that whole episode of Carra & Neville and don't remember Carra saying there was too much space between Lovren and Glenjo, he did say there was far too much space between Lovren and Skrtel though, which left the space for Clyne to run into. Skrtel wasn't in position at all, Manquillo had Pelle covered and Skrtel was stood there like a spare prick at a party, no-one around him and no-one in front of him, so what was he doing ? He should have moved closer to Lovren, and then there was no gap for Clyne, but instead just stood there ball-watching.
The money most certainly is there. We probably have around £60m to spend if required. If we get Reus, fantastic, though not realistic. Falcao on loan ? Probably more chance but we definitely need someone. Barca have just made Song available, maybe even on loan if necessary, there is the ready made answer. Falcao (A.N.Other Striker) & Song and I'd fancy us for either the PL or the CL even.
I wonder what Barca think about this.
If there's any fault on Johnson, then it's just down to a communication issue between him and Sterling - it feels like Sterling wasn't aware that Johnson had pushed out to cover the wide man, and so positioned himself to cover the pass outside. Had he been aware of Johnson pushing out, he'd probably have stayed home.
As for someone suggesting that we'll see more of Agger... I don't think so. I don't know what's happened to him, but Agger falls asleep too much these days for me. I can imagine if Agger had played instead of Skrtel, an alternate scenario that could've played out would be: Lovren plays in Skrtel's position and closes the gap between him and Agger, but Agger (in Lovren's role) doesn't notice Tadic sneaking up behind him, so Tadic receives the pass from Clyne and goes ahead to score himself. Shorter and sweeter. 😀
As for someone suggesting that we'll see more of Agger... I don't think so. I don't know what's happened to him, but Agger falls asleep too much these days for me. I can imagine if Agger had played instead of Skrtel, an alternate scenario that could've played out would be: Lovren plays in Skrtel's position and closes the gap between him and Agger, but Agger (in Lovren's role) doesn't notice Tadic sneaking up behind him, so Tadic receives the pass from Clyne and goes ahead to score himself. Shorter and sweeter. 😀
Ha ha - thanks Mystic. I've got Real on the bloody brain. Amended !
There is not one involved LFC player who looks good in this scenario. Everything about this situation stems from the fact that Lucas and Gerrard are fucking pants at DM.
The connection needed between the back 4 to push up in this situation takes years to work out. Unless you have Baresi and Costacurta as CB's. That was moving art on a football pitch.
Skrtel's shit positioning creates the space, Lucas failing to track the man into that space further exacerbates the situation. Everything Ryan said.
That would probably be me. It depends on whether you prefer Skrtel's weakness and strengths to Agger's. Reminds of the "man-marking" versus "zonal defence" debate a few years ago. The only English pundit who seemed to get it was Martin Keown who said that you deploy the system that over the long term concedes the fewest goals . Now, we gave spent £3million plus on 'front-foot' centre halves in Sakho and Lovren. I think I know which way Rodgers wants to go, although I have been known to be wrong in my thoughts.
- Status
