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Klopp's approach to squad building

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FoxForceFive

FoxForceFive

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Or, in a less 'the sky is falling' outlook, perhaps Klopp sees him as a backup player, & knows which of his number one targets to improve the spine will becoming available on the summer & doesn't want to blow the cash on a backup player now when he could get that core team improvement over the long term.
 
FoxForceFive said:
Or, in a less 'the sky is falling' outlook, perhaps Klopp sees him as a backup player, & knows which of his number one targets to improve the spine will becoming available on the summer & doesn't want to blow the cash on a backup player now when he could get that core team improvement over the long term.
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How come we're always waiting and happy to write the current season off? We've become Arsenal. This complete squad is a pipedream, a mirage. As often as we get someone good we lose our best player
 
Woland said:
How come we're always waiting and happy to write the current season off? We've become Arsenal. This complete squad is a pipedream, a mirage. As often as we get someone good we lose our best player
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We'll continue to lose our best player every season or every other season if we get them performing like they have been though.

The only way to keep them is to regularly challenge for trophies, win the odd one & prove we're CL regulars. We're not there yet.

Whilst I'm pissed off & worried about Coutinho's absence (he scored or created 23 goals, that's a huge miss & will undoubtedly cost us) & wish we could get someone in, we have improved the side every single season since Klopp has arrived, he's got us back into the CL & whilst we may have failed to win a trophy, we've come fucking close.

In my books that earns him the right to take this gamble, not without question, but with a 'let's wait & see how this plays out' aspect to it.
 
FoxForceFive said:
We'll continue to lose our best player every season or every other season if we get them performing like they have been though.

The only way to keep them is to regularly challenge for trophies, win the odd one & prove we're CL regulars. We're not there yet.

Whilst I'm pissed off & worried about Coutinho's absence (he scored or created 23 goals, that's a huge miss & will undoubtedly cost us) & wish we could get someone in, we have improved the side every single season since Klopp has arrived, he's got us back into the CL & whilst we may have failed to win a trophy, we've come fucking close.

In my books that earns him the right to take this gamble, not without question, but with a 'let's wait & see how this plays out' aspect to it.
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That's only half of it though. We don't capitalise on positions of strength. For example, not strengthening now while we have brilliance like Salah and to make up the shortfall of losing Coutinho, leads to things like missing out on CL football, winning nothing and then losing Salah because of that lack of ambition, that's in turn resulted in zero success. Relatively speaking, unless we really are Arsenal and consider finishing 4th two years in the row "success".

If we finish in the Europa League, win nothing and we've lost Coutinho, how does that sell our "ambition" to Salah, Firmino, Mane, VVD? It simply doesn't, they all came here to win and each will only give a couple of seasons before they get itchy feet.

I'm all for the romanticism of long-term visions, but if football has taught me anything, it's that nothing is guaranteed in the long-term, you pretty much have to operate in the short-term for success, with a long-term idea for sustained stability. Look at recent successes (Leicester's blot on the landscape aside), everyone of them has capitalised on where they were at. Chelsea lost Mourinho after a horrendous season and challenged straight away. United with Mourinho have bought what everyone knew they needed, they've converted from the flat, abomination they were under Moyes and Van Gaal and are in 2nd place within 18 months and look every bit capable of challenging next year and holding onto their position this season.

That's where everyone else is at, while we're the also rans with Spurs and Arsenal, banking on luck again to see us through. If we don't buy and we lose one of the front three, we're fucked. Everyone knows it. We're already on a knife edge because of how understrength we are in midfield, how poor we are defensively and how much depth we lack in general, we're kidding ourselves if we think we can go through the season unscathed in three competitions.
 
You need to plan for long term, but not neglect the short term.

It's my worry if we remain inactive
 
FoxForceFive said:
We'll continue to lose our best player every season or every other season if we get them performing like they have been though.

The only way to keep them is to regularly challenge for trophies, win the odd one & prove we're CL regulars. We're not there yet.

Whilst I'm pissed off & worried about Coutinho's absence (he scored or created 23 goals, that's a huge miss & will undoubtedly cost us) & wish we could get someone in, we have improved the side every single season since Klopp has arrived, he's got us back into the CL & whilst we may have failed to win a trophy, we've come fucking close.

In my books that earns him the right to take this gamble, not without question, but with a 'let's wait & see how this plays out' aspect to it.
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We might yet buy some players, but my optimistim just isn't there. Everyone above us is strengthening. FSG have made a billion quid in asset growth. They're laughing at the fans.
 
I was reading something recently where they talked about how Klopp is always looking at the long term plan - which is great & we can see him going the right direction; over time this approach will pay rich dividends.

But the argument of the article was that it is possible to manage long term and take some short term "in season" actions, at the same time. It immediately put me in mind of Ronny Rosenthal - signed just before the transfer deadline towards the end of the 89/90 season (before we had "windows"). Quite clearly not a traditional "Liverpool player", and really not one around whom to continue to build the team, which he proved conclusively the following season with some hilarious moments of shockingly poor football. But for the end of the 89/90 season he banged in a series of goals that saw us over the line to number 18.

So go on Jurgen, go find us a short term Ronny Rosenthal, who we can bin in 18 months once we have all the Lemars, Pulisics and Mbappes in place
 
tombrown said:
I was reading something recently where they talked about how Klopp is always looking at the long term plan - which is great & we can see him going the right direction; over time this approach will pay rich dividends.

But the argument of the article was that it is possible to manage long term and take some short term "in season" actions, at the same time. It immediately put me in mind of Ronny Rosenthal - signed just before the transfer deadline towards the end of the 89/90 season (before we had "windows"). Quite clearly not a traditional "Liverpool player", and really not one around whom to continue to build the team, which he proved conclusively the following season with some hilarious moments of shockingly poor football. But for the end of the 89/90 season he banged in a series of goals that saw us over the line to number 18.

So go on Jurgen, go find us a short term Ronny Rosenthal, who we can bin in 18 months once we have all the Lemars, Pulisics and Mbappes in place
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And this is my worry, it's a bit symptomatic of his overall approach.

When we played at Villarreal we were expecting a tough game and to be totally under the cosh, they were flying high in La Liga at the time too. When we got there, they were flat, disjointed and we had them on the backfoot, but it was around the time we were playing more or less without a striker in those sorts of games. It was crucial really that we capitalised while they were weak and I felt we could have thrown on a forward or two and got a couple of goals, ahead of taking them back to Anfield. We got beat 1-0 and then had to take them back to Anfield, without an away goal. Luckily we did them in the 2nd leg, but he's always concerned me since then, with his lack of urgency with in-game decisions. He's great at half time and team talks, reorganising etc. It's a very methodical approach but also slightly stubborn and self defeating. It's like a complete reluctance to disturb the pattern during play, whichever way it's going, and a willingness to only tweak things when we've got the chance to reorganise. The transfer market strategy seems more or less the same. Except we inexplicably disturbed our season by selling Coutinho.
 
Oh Klopp's inability, or seeming inability, to compromise on who he wants is undoubtedly going to cost us.

Ideal world we buy in a player now who helps us win the CL & finish in a healthy position so we keep Salah & then fill in the rest of the spine in the summer.

Unfortunately I just don't think that's an option with Klopp unless we are able to crowbar one of the players he really wants into a move now.

The issue with Coutinho gone is not just one of stats, although fuck knows that 23 goals created or scored is clear enough, but that we've effectively lost both a midfielder & a forward at the same time.

A fully fit Lallana may be able to reduce the impact on midfield, but he can't imo do an effective job upfront.

I just hope the club want Mahrez but are trying to do it like we did VVD at the second time of asking, quickly & quietly, it was almost a complete surprise when it was announced, despite everyone expecting us to go back in for him in January, which is a rarity these days, with seemingly every bid & attempt to buy a player publicised for at least a day or two, if not weeks, before a deal is done.
 
FoxForceFive said:
Oh Klopp's inability, or seeming inability, to compromise on who he wants is undoubtedly going to cost us.

Ideal world we buy in a player now who helps us win the CL & finish in a healthy position so we keep Salah & then fill in the rest of the spine in the summer.

Unfortunately I just don't think that's an option with Klopp unless we are able to crowbar one of the players he really wants into a move now.

The issue with Coutinho gone is not just one of stats, although fuck knows that 23 goals created or scored is clear enough, but that we've effectively lost both a midfielder & a forward at the same time.

A fully fit Lallana may be able to reduce the impact on midfield, but he can't imo do an effective job upfront.

I just hope the club want Mahrez but are trying to do it like we did VVD at the second time of asking, quickly & quietly, it was almost a complete surprise when it was announced, despite everyone expecting us to go back in for him in January, which is a rarity these days, with seemingly every bid & attempt to buy a player publicised for at least a day or two, if not weeks, before a deal is done.
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Good points there. I believe the Mahrez option is suddenly more viable with Arsenal securing Mktirian. That probably also leave out a bidding war for him.

But I also take it that Klopp wants players that undoubtely strengthen his first XI. They are either hard to get at this point, and hopefully also busy with CL, or they are seen as they need time to adjust to out system and hence can be disturbing factors at this point. Not all can make a direct impact to Klopp's style of play. VvD can, and I suspect Keita already show the qualities Klopp look for and hence don't need too much time to settle in. While i.e. Mahrez is not used to play like us at all, and probably would need same amount of time as Ox to settle into the system which will not make him efficient until late April when season already on the brink. The disturbance will then be the constant focus on clickbaiting, narrowminded press on why he doesn't play more every time another player make a mistake.
 
I'd love him to have that little bit of extra flexibility or risk taking, but if he doesn't I would still take Klopp as is, with his supposedly stubborn approach, over any other manager in the world. We are extremely lucky to have him and the plus side of Klopp far outweighs any niggles we may have with his approach.

Doesn't mean he cant be criticised, or urged to modify some aspects of his approach, but let's not forget what we have & what we must keep
 
tombrown said:
I'd love him to have that little bit of extra flexibility or risk taking, but if he doesn't I would still take Klopp as is, with his supposedly stubborn approach, over any other manager in the world. We are extremely lucky to have him and the plus side of Klopp far outweighs any niggles we may have with his approach.

Doesn't mean he cant be criticised, or urged to modify some aspects of his approach, but let's not forget what we have & what we must keep
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I'd much prefer him with a DoF. Someone who doesn't mind buying players.
 
You just can't shake the feeling that the books need to be balanced when it comes to transfers and that's only going to win us trophies in the long term if we don't lose players but currently we are. As soon as the signing of VVD was announced i thought that must mean that Coutinho is going in January and he duly did.
It wasn't based on me thinking that is was a good idea but more on the fact that we don't spend money in January and often make money.
I wouldn't be surprised if the only reason that Coutinho deal didn't happen last summer was because we couldn't get the VVD signing done.
Madness not to have a replacement lined up and it jeopardises and success we may have this season. I'm sick of every year being a transitional year.
 
Insignificance said:
If it help sending Hazard to Madrid I certainly hope they get Mahrez.
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Everyone seems to think that's done either way.

And @Roopy posted this in the goaly thread last night:

Roma need to sell players due to not meeting Financial Fair Play requirements.

Selling Dzeko & Palmieri will be sufficient for them to now meet these requirements.

They will not sell Allison this window.

Dzeko (32 I believe) will be sold to Chelsea for 20-25M, along with Palmieri - will also be sold to Chelsea for 20M, who they bought for 400k, but has missed a large chunk of the last 12 months due to a serious knee injury.

I mean, if all that happens then we should just steam in and get him.
 
davud graham said:
You just can't shake the feeling that the books need to be balanced when it comes to transfers and that's only going to win us trophies in the long term if we don't lose players but currently we are. As soon as the signing of VVD was announced i thought that must mean that Coutinho is going in January and he duly did.
It wasn't based on me thinking that is was a good idea but more on the fact that we don't spend money in January and often make money.
I wouldn't be surprised if the only reason that Coutinho deal didn't happen last summer was because we couldn't get the VVD signing done.
Madness not to have a replacement lined up and it jeopardises and success we may have this season. I'm sick of every year being a transitional year.
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That's why I'm saying the fans are being bummed. The fans stole them this club with all the harranging of the last guys. They paid 230 million for it. Forbes today values it at 1.5 billion. The fans have basically given the lizards well over a billion, and now we're starting to trade annual profits on players too, revenues were up 60 million last year alone. Next year it will be shagloads more.

But we got a new stand and Salah (for a year or two)

And I don't think new owners would help either, coz they'd have to pay 1.5bn just to get started. These guys have got a billion quid in asset growth, hundreds of millions coming in from player sales - these are the ones who could take us to the next level. They just can't be arsed.
 
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Woland said:
That's why I'm saying the fans are being bummed. The fans stole them this club with all the harranging of the last guys. They paid 230 million for it. Forbes today values it at 1.5 billion. The fans have basically given the lizards well over a billion, and now we're starting to trade annual profits on players too, revenues were up 60 million last year alone. Next year it will be shagloads more.

But we got a new stand and Salah (for a year or two)

And I don't think new owners would help either, coz they'd have to pay 1.5bn just to get started. These guys have got a billion quid in asset growth, hundreds of millions coming in from player sales - these are the ones who could take us to the next level. They just can't be arsed.
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I think that Henry and Werner couldn't give a shit about the sporting side of the club as long as their investment continues to reap rewards. How often do they attend games? How often do they comment on anything LFC related other than the money side of things? They don't care about football and haven't cared since they realised they know fuck all about the sport and couldn't just waltz in and show everyone how it's done like they thought they could do. Moneyball my arse.

This may be different for some of the FSG guys who are more hands on but even then they are limited by the amount the real owners are willing to invest to get success. They have also realised that to compete for the League they would have to seriously spend but to carry on receiving all the TV money all they have to do is stay competetive for the top six and the cash will keep rolling in.
I know we've smashed our transfer records many times since they've taken over but we've also gotten record amounts for players sold so excuse me for not being impressed.
Surely it wasn't a coincidence that last season we spent fuck all after just building the new stand. They got lucky because Klopp got champions league qualification regardless of the lack of investment. In Boston they must have been pissing their pants laughing.
 
davud graham said:
In Boston they must have been pissing their pants laughing.
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I posted a while ago about being sat next to Henry, Werner and Linda the night before the last game of last season in a restaurant in town, and there could not have been three more bored, untalkative, morose looking people in Liverpool that night. They were sharing a bottle of water staring at each other like they hated everything, but they sat there for hours, while our table had a laugh riot. I said to my kids, look at those nobheads, that's what being a billionaire gets you. Get your degrees, but fuck avarice. If you wanna get a good career, sound, but if you wanna be a hippy or a ski instructor, also sound. Every weekend will still be better than theirs (sic).
 
Woland said:
I posted a while ago about being sat next to Henry, Werner and Linda the night before the last game of last season in a restaurant in town, and there could not have been three more bored, untalkative, morose looking people in Liverpool that night. They were sharing a bottle of water staring at each other like they hated everything, but they sat there for hours, while our table had a laugh riot. I said to my kids, look at those nobheads, that's what being a billionaire gets you. Get your degrees, but fuck avarice. If you wanna get a good career, sound, but if you wanna be a hippy or a ski instructor, also sound. Every weekend will still be better than theirs (sic).
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Oi! There‘s nothing wrong with being a ski instructor. Never had more shags than back then.
 
Holle said:
Oi! There‘s nothing wrong with being a ski instructor. Never had more shags than back then.
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That's what I said. I said do that rather than chase billions, soz if not clear. Ski instructors do tend to be very happy. Every wealthy dude I meet lately is a miserable twat.
 
Yeah the owners are full on shitehawks. Can't see me ever thinking differently. They could've been worse though.
 
Woland said:
That's what I said. I said do that rather than chase billions, soz if not clear. Ski instructors do tend to be very happy. Every wealthy dude I meet lately is a miserable twat.
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I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. The pursuit of happiness does not necessarily involve the accumulation of wealth. But I think that your rather limited observation time of John Henry doesn't rationally allow you to formulate the conclusion that he is a miserable twat because he is a billionaire.
 
It's not just them. I've been having to work with a load of really wealthy people lately and I've worked with loads over the years, and I know it's anecdotal, but I've come to the conclusion that it correlates well with being a miserable twat. I'm not saying every very wealthy person is, of course not. And that table might have just been let down on a billion quid deal that night and that's why they were all so pissed off, but normally they're all happy as fuck. Doesn't seem that way though.

Anyways, because of this work, and because of what I noticed, I've brought it up with a load of people lately... and I've had loads of similar anecdotes back. Loads of money, loads of land, no mates, frown. I could go on about this but it's hardly the forum.

Back to footy. They've made a shagload out of the club already, it's only going to get more, and that will do them, clearly. They realise the last lot got pitchforked out and they don't want that, so they'll just do enough to keep the majority thinking it's as good as it can be, and get on with playing with hedge funds and rounders etc.
 
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