If no one else is gonna bother to say it..

[Dreambeliever]

..then I may aswell.

If Daniel Sturridge stays remotely fit, we're gonna challenge for the league.

Can't see it. Our squad is already exhausted and its only December. A couple of injuries and we will struggle.

 

[cloggypop]

We looked knackered yesterday.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Doesnt that all go on the back burner when we sell him in January because he's not worth the hassle (per Dreamys direction)?


Obv when I say "sell" i mean receive 10m for him on the never-never, which we then pay straight to him to settle his 5yr 100k+ p/w contract - therefore completely nullifying the very point in selling him

I'd still sell 100%. It's only a matter time before he gets an injury that puts him out for the season again.

Two great strikes don't change that. We all know he is a superb finisher but it's not December and he's scored in two games. It's not enough for a player that would fetch a big fee.

 

[Dreambeliever]

I'm expecting us to burn out at some stage due to our committment to the Europa League and that will hinder our challenge for the league. We're much more likely to get top four. Leicester will drop out before long and we just have to get ahead and stay above Spurs and Chelsea. That should be comfortably achievable for this manager and this squad.

If we crash out of the Eurupa League soonish then it would raise the possibility of competing for the league. I'd advise doing so because I think we should be comfortable favourites for top four which negates the point of lifting that trophy.

I know many will we exist to win trophies, but I'd prefer top four and a close league challenge than a Europa League victory.

Top four is no guarantee of CL.

Top three is.

 

[Dreambeliever]

He didn't look too happy in his goal celebrations! Wonder if he's unimpressed with the negative "injury" attention.

That being said, yes, he's the difference.

Can't wait for INGS to get back in the mix too..

Studge
Big Ben
Divock
INGS

Four tasty strikers there, if last night was the start of a new direction for Divock.

The only tasty striker there is Studge and he's incredibly brittle.
Benteke is good but not someone we can rely on.
Ings I absolutely love but is definitely a work in progress and it can take 18 months to come back from his injury (look at Lucas)
Origi is rubbish and while he may improve it will take a long time.

We need strikers who are fit ready and able now. We currently only have Firmino who is hot in cold.

 

[localny]

The only tasty striker there is Studge and he's incredibly brittle.
Benteke is good but not someone we can rely on.
Ings I absolutely love but is definitely a work in progress and it can take 18 months to come back from his injury (look at Lucas)
Origi is rubbish and while he may improve it will take a long time.

We need strikers who are fit ready and able now. We currently only have Firmino who is hot in cold.

Another alternate view for someone with an optimistic username, and not a Ryan stand-in..

Sturridge - back now, and will be fine all season under the new regime of "get some balls".
Benteke - Solid, reliable goal every other game striker. he's not Suarez but he's going to get some important goals
INGS - Will be back April/May if not sooner. He's no Lucas
Origi - Turned the corner, under the current manager, will realize his potential.

Nice to have options again.

 

[Frogfish]

Can't see it. Our squad is already exhausted and its only December. A couple of injuries and we will struggle.

What bollocks.

 

[Frogfish]

I'd still sell 100%. It's only a matter time before he gets an injury that puts him out for the season again.

Two great strikes don't change that. We all know he is a superb finisher but it's not December and he's scored in two games. It's not enough for a player that would fetch a big fee.

I wouldn't sell simply because we wouldn't get a big fee. Everyone is aware of his susceptibility to injury and that would certainly affect his value to those clubs that could afford him. His value to us far out weighs any small transfer fee we may receive.

 

[localny]

Somebody (@Modo? @dmishra? @Hansern?) asked me a few days ago how Klopp approached home games in his time at Dortmund and how they used to break down teams who parked the bus. I forgot to reply then and I don't remember which thread it was, so I'll reply here. I didn't think there was anything too different about how Dortmund played at home and away to be honest. They did all the same things: pressing, making runs without the ball, counter-attacks at pace at every opportunity. The only difference was the crowd at Signal Iduna Park – they really created an intimidating atmosphere for any visitor and gave the home players even more energy and drive.

Looking at the Bundesliga tables from the past years, it's clear that Borussia's performance has not been too different home and away. For instance in 2010-11, which was Klopp's first Bundesliga title, they won 12 games at home and 11 away (although there were 4 losses away vs only 1 at home), scored 35 goals at home and 32 away (but conceded 14 away compared to only 8 at home). In contrast, Bayern, who were managed by Van Gaal that season (sacked in April) picked up 13 wins at home and only 6 away. So clearly Klopp is a type of manager who doesn't make much distinction between playing at home and away.

I think the explanation for this is that once your attacking game is polished enough that that the opponents realize they can't stop you from scoring even when defending with 11 men behind the ball, they stop trying to do that and just pretty much play their normal game and try to take their chances in attack if possible. It was the inability of Brendan's (and before that, Rafa's) possession-based approach to consistently break down teams who defended in numbers that created an incentive for more teams to play that way against us and created in some of our players a kind of psychological complex when faced with these tactics (which was used to its full effect by Mourinho in THAT game 2 years ago). Klopp was able to pass that threshold pretty quickly with Dortmund, so in the end there were relatively few teams trying to park the bus against them.

Twas I Rurik, I'm gutted. but seriously, I wonder if Klopp has the incision now, maybe with Sturridge back to treat home games the same. Crossing fingers, so we can skip out on the parked buses that tripped previous managers.

 

[Frogfish]

Because our home form is shite?

Well that's rather a glib reply. However there are two reasons it won't remain average - it's not shite even now (unless winning by a single goal is now shite) a) Benteke / Sturridge - as far as Big Ben goes we have had zero aerial threat for ages and we now seem to be getting that back and headed goals can beat any defence b) we all believe in Klopp - yet it seems you don't believe in his ability to find a resolution and are prepared to write him off (as far as home form is concerned) after just 2 months on charge ?

 

[localny]

Somebody (@Modo? @dmishra? @Hansern?) asked me a few days ago how Klopp approached home games in his time at Dortmund and how they used to break down teams who parked the bus. I forgot to reply then and I don't remember which thread it was, so I'll reply here. I didn't think there was anything too different about how Dortmund played at home and away to be honest. They did all the same things: pressing, making runs without the ball, counter-attacks at pace at every opportunity. The only difference was the crowd at Signal Iduna Park – they really created an intimidating atmosphere for any visitor and gave the home players even more energy and drive.

Looking at the Bundesliga tables from the past years, it's clear that Borussia's performance has not been too different home and away. For instance in 2010-11, which was Klopp's first Bundesliga title, they won 12 games at home and 11 away (although there were 4 losses away vs only 1 at home), scored 35 goals at home and 32 away (but conceded 14 away compared to only 8 at home). In contrast, Bayern, who were managed by Van Gaal that season (sacked in April) picked up 13 wins at home and only 6 away. So clearly Klopp is a type of manager who doesn't make much distinction between playing at home and away.

I think the explanation for this is that once your attacking game is polished enough that that the opponents realize they can't stop you from scoring even when defending with 11 men behind the ball, they stop trying to do that and just pretty much play their normal game and try to take their chances in attack if possible. It was the inability of Brendan's (and before that, Rafa's) possession-based approach to consistently break down teams who defended in numbers that created an incentive for more teams to play that way against us and created in some of our players a kind of psychological complex when faced with these tactics (which was used to its full effect by Mourinho in THAT game 2 years ago). Klopp was able to pass that threshold pretty quickly with Dortmund, so in the end there were relatively few teams trying to park the bus against them.

PS: Thanks for taking the time to find those stats. Much appreciated.

 

[rurikbird]

Twas I Rurik, I'm gutted. but seriously, I wonder if Klopp has the incision now, maybe with Sturridge back to treat home games the same. Crossing fingers, so we can skip out on the parked buses that tripped previous managers.

My bad 🙂

 

[rurikbird]

..then I may aswell.

If Daniel Sturridge stays remotely fit, we're gonna challenge for the league.

It does suddenly seem plausible after a 6:1 route of a strong Southampton team with a number of our key players missing. As everybody keeps saying, we've played most of our hardest games away from home already. Add a clinical finisher to a hard-working side, an imperfect, but vastly improved defense, inconsistent competition and maybe, just maybe...

But in truth I don't see us winning the league just yet. And it's not because 6 points is an insurmountable deficit to make up (it's not) or lack of squad depth (that could be an issue, but not the main one) or because this or that player is "not good enough" to win the league. Can we win the league with Ming? Yes, plenty of teams have won the league with the 4-5th best GK in the league. Can we win with Lucas in midfield? Detractors will say no, but I think we could. Moreno? Yes. Lovren? Sure, why not.

But what we are missing right now are those real big personalities that make up title-winning teams. You don't need many of them, 2 or 3 is more than enough. City have Kompany and Yaya, Arsenal now have Sanchez and Cech, United have a few as well (aging, mostly). Barca is chock-full of them, Klopp's Dortmund had a few too – he is clearly secure enough in his own skin to allow other strong characters if they deserve it. We hit the jack-pot with Klopp, but at some point the manager cannot be the only big personality in the team, you will need someone on the pitch to be the general as well.

We've lost 2 such players recently in Gerrard and Suarez, and Carra before that. Who among the current squad has any hope to replace them? I would say only Can realistically does, and he is a few years away from truly maturing. Coutinho and Henderson are leaders in some way, but they will never have that nasty, psychotic streak that you need in a serial winner. Milner and Lovren were both brought in to provide leadership and I think at this point it's fair to say that while they can be useful contributors as players, they don't have the personalities (or talent) to lead a club of Liverpool's stature. Sturridge is possibly our best player at the moment, but his injuries and related psychological issues pretty much rule him out.

At this point, the player with the most influence over other players, I feel, is Lucas. It's not surprising that the very perceptive Klopp immediately installed him as the central "cog" of the team. So let me ask this question again – can one win a title with Lucas in midfield? Yes, of course. Now a second question – can we win the title if Lucas is our most influential leader among the players? You tell me what you think. For me the answer is no.

EDIT: I forgot Sakho... stupid, how could I?? OK, we have one. If we add one more in January, all bets are off.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Though my head wants to think exactly like Rurik, I'll just go with my heart and tell Mark that he's a fucking pessimist.

Even if Daniel Sturridge doesn't stay fit, we're gonna challenge for the league.

 

[mark1975]

Though my head wants to think exactly like Rurik, I'll just go with my heart and tell Mark that he's a fucking pessimist.

Even if Daniel Sturridge doesn't stay fit, we're gonna challenge for the league.

I'm no pessimist. I think we can win the title with DEJAN LOVREN in the team.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

I'm no pessimist. I think we can win the title with DEJAN LOVREN in the team.

Mark 1-0 Wiz

 

[Modo]

I think we're all getting a bit carried away here...
Last night I was talking to my brother about the team and I actually said, "our squad might not be so bad, it might actually be really good". He of course laughed in my face, Man U supporter and all.


Let's see how the games in December pan out. To mount a league challenge we need fresh legs in April - May so that means a lot of rotating.


Having Randall and Smith as our fullback cover doesn't fill me with much confidence. It also worries me that Lucas is our only DM and if we progress further in the cups a lot is going to be asked of him.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Enjoy the ride Modo ... stop being so pragmatic, leave that for analysis if we can repeat, yes? 😉

 

[Modo]

Enjoy the ride Modo ... stop being so pragmatic, leave that for analysis if we can repeat, yes? 😉

Yeah I should just give in but this team has broken my heart on so many occasions. Fucking hell, I'm in my 30s and I haven't experienced a league win yet. Baby years don't count.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Yeah I should just give in but this team has broken my heart on so many occasions. Fucking hell, I'm in my 30s and I haven't experienced a league win yet. Baby years don't count.

Join the club ... 🙂

 

[tony]

For me it's just great that we have elevated ourselves out of the mid table dross with fuck all to play for other than a decent cup run into a team challenging for something. I think its highly unlikely we will win the league but its great to be in the mix again! Our odds for the title have dropped from 50's to 8-1 in a matter of weeks - happy days

 

[Rosco]

I'd still sell 100%. It's only a matter time before he gets an injury that puts him out for the season again.

Two great strikes don't change that. We all know he is a superb finisher but it's not December and he's scored in two games. It's not enough for a player that would fetch a big fee.

How would he fetch a big fee? Does nobody else realise he gets injured a lot?

 

[Avmenon]

We got him for about 12 million or thereabouts, so we could get an excellent return on that if you discounted his wages.
But we can't discount his wages so we're probably better off freezing him in carbonite and thawing him out for every 1 in 4 matches

 

[tony]

How would he fetch a big fee? Does nobody else realise he gets injured a lot?

Ha - Arsenal are always on the lookout for quality injury prone players, Studge fits the bill perfectly

 

[Judge Jules]

I wouldn't sell simply because we wouldn't get a big fee. Everyone is aware of his susceptibility to injury and that would certainly affect his value to those clubs that could afford him. His value to us far out weighs any small transfer fee we may receive.

100% right. In fact I'm not sure we'd even get a fee. Anyone interested would want him on loan to test him out, and he'd probably get crocked again.

 

[Modo]

It does suddenly seem plausible after a 6:1 route of a strong Southampton team with a number of our key players missing. As everybody keeps saying, we've played most of our hardest games away from home already. Add a clinical finisher to a hard-working side, an imperfect, but vastly improved defense, inconsistent competition and maybe, just maybe...

But in truth I don't see us winning the league just yet. And it's not because 6 points is an insurmountable deficit to make up (it's not) or lack of squad depth (that could be an issue, but not the main one) or because this or that player is "not good enough" to win the league. Can we win the league with Ming? Yes, plenty of teams have won the league with the 4-5th best GK in the league. Can we win with Lucas in midfield? Detractors will say no, but I think we could. Moreno? Yes. Lovren? Sure, why not.

But what we are missing right now are those real big personalities that make up title-winning teams. You don't need many of them, 2 or 3 is more than enough. City have Kompany and Yaya, Arsenal now have Sanchez and Cech, United have a few as well (aging, mostly). Barca is chock-full of them, Klopp's Dortmund had a few too – he is clearly secure enough in his own skin to allow other strong characters if they deserve it. We hit the jack-pot with Klopp, but at some point the manager cannot be the only big personality in the team, you will need someone on the pitch to be the general as well.

We've lost 2 such players recently in Gerrard and Suarez, and Carra before that. Who among the current squad has any hope to replace them? I would say only Can realistically does, and he is a few years away from truly maturing. Coutinho and Henderson are leaders in some way, but they will never have that nasty, psychotic streak that you need in a serial winner. Milner and Lovren were both brought in to provide leadership and I think at this point it's fair to say that while they can be useful contributors as players, they don't have the personalities (or talent) to lead a club of Liverpool's stature. Sturridge is possibly our best player at the moment, but his injuries and related psychological issues pretty much rule him out.

At this point, the player with the most influence over other players, I feel, is Lucas. It's not surprising that the very perceptive Klopp immediately installed him as the central "cog" of the team. So let me ask this question again – can one win a title with Lucas in midfield? Yes, of course. Now a second question – can we win the title if Lucas is our most influential leader among the players? You tell me what you think. For me the answer is no.

EDIT: I forgot Sakho... stupid, how could I?? OK, we have one. If we add one more in January, all bets are off.

You know what I like about not having a Suarez, Gerrard, Sanchez, Hazard type player in the team?
We play more as a team without them. I want to believe that they all enter the pitch as equals and not dependant on one player to win us the game. It's a team effort more or less and I think that is what Klopp is instilling in them.
If a winner like Klopp can rely on Lucas to act has his understudy on the pitch I think we should as well.

 

[Mystic]

Well that's rather a glib reply. However there are two reasons it won't remain average - it's not shite even now (unless winning by a single goal is now shite) a) Benteke / Sturridge - as far as Big Ben goes we have had zero aerial threat for ages and we now seem to be getting that back and headed goals can beat any defence b) we all believe in Klopp - yet it seems you don't believe in his ability to find a resolution and are prepared to write him off (as far as home form is concerned) after just 2 months on charge ?

I know Froggy, but its so hard to take confidence when we're so good at fucking up, even against Swansea we painfully struggled through. I can just see us dropping a lot of points in those "winnable" home games thanks to teams dragging at a painful bore draw. I hope you're right though.

 

[ILD]

Can't see it. Our squad is already exhausted and its only December. A couple of injuries and we will struggle.

Where is the happy go lucky optimist gone eh? The one who used to back us at huge odds to win the CL or league. Dreambeliever my arse. 😉

 

[Judge Jules]

And if a winner like Klopp can keep picking Lallana in his first team I think we should as well.

Let's see what happens in the January window.

 

[Mystic]

It does suddenly seem plausible after a 6:1 route of a strong Southampton team with a number of our key players missing. As everybody keeps saying, we've played most of our hardest games away from home already. Add a clinical finisher to a hard-working side, an imperfect, but vastly improved defense, inconsistent competition and maybe, just maybe...

But in truth I don't see us winning the league just yet. And it's not because 6 points is an insurmountable deficit to make up (it's not) or lack of squad depth (that could be an issue, but not the main one) or because this or that player is "not good enough" to win the league. Can we win the league with Ming? Yes, plenty of teams have won the league with the 4-5th best GK in the league. Can we win with Lucas in midfield? Detractors will say no, but I think we could. Moreno? Yes. Lovren? Sure, why not.

But what we are missing right now are those real big personalities that make up title-winning teams. You don't need many of them, 2 or 3 is more than enough. City have Kompany and Yaya, Arsenal now have Sanchez and Cech, United have a few as well (aging, mostly). Barca is chock-full of them, Klopp's Dortmund had a few too – he is clearly secure enough in his own skin to allow other strong characters if they deserve it. We hit the jack-pot with Klopp, but at some point the manager cannot be the only big personality in the team, you will need someone on the pitch to be the general as well.

We've lost 2 such players recently in Gerrard and Suarez, and Carra before that. Who among the current squad has any hope to replace them? I would say only Can realistically does, and he is a few years away from truly maturing. Coutinho and Henderson are leaders in some way, but they will never have that nasty, psychotic streak that you need in a serial winner. Milner and Lovren were both brought in to provide leadership and I think at this point it's fair to say that while they can be useful contributors as players, they don't have the personalities (or talent) to lead a club of Liverpool's stature. Sturridge is possibly our best player at the moment, but his injuries and related psychological issues pretty much rule him out.

At this point, the player with the most influence over other players, I feel, is Lucas. It's not surprising that the very perceptive Klopp immediately installed him as the central "cog" of the team. So let me ask this question again – can one win a title with Lucas in midfield? Yes, of course. Now a second question – can we win the title if Lucas is our most influential leader among the players? You tell me what you think. For me the answer is no.

EDIT: I forgot Sakho... stupid, how could I?? OK, we have one. If we add one more in January, all bets are off.

Your posts are like gold dust Rurik! I'm glad you mentioned Sakho in your edit, he's a massive personality in the team, I wish he could shake the injuries because he and Henderson as permanent fixtures could lead this team. I think you do Henderson a little bit of a disservice too, he may not be nasty, but he's loving this club and massively growing into the role, just look at him and Costa last year. I think once he gets back into full swing after the injury, he'll be back out there barking at our players and the opposition letting them know who's boss again, it'll be great to see!