Gotze

[JohnnyRocket]

Anyone who thinks we're going to rebuild back to the top by signing top, well known talent in the 23 - 27 year old bracket is completely wrong.

Klopp's going to do it the way he did at Dortmund - by signing younger talent at reasonable prices and building a team up with no egos and high work ethic. And if a 19 year old we sign turns out to be world class by the age of 21 and stays with us - great. If he forces a move to Real Madrid for 45 million - also fine, we'll just keep building the side, hopefully this time not pissing the funds away on mediocre 'premiership proven'.

I know we've all heard it before, but now we have a manager that can actually do it, and has done it. Right now we sit with Coutinho, Origi, Gomez, Karius, Can, Ojo, Grujic and Matip under the age of 24. Some of them with reasonably good chance of improving further and becoming very good players, possibly world class. I can only see Klopp adding to these.

Unfortunately it's our only way back into the top 3 or 4.

 

[Mystic]

Anyone who thinks we're going to rebuild back to the top by signing top, well known talent in the 23 - 27 year old bracket is completely wrong.

Klopp's going to do it the way he did at Dortmund - by signing younger talent at reasonable prices and building a team up with no egos and high work ethic. And if a 19 year old we sign turns out to be world class by the age of 21 and stays with us - great. If he forces a move to Real Madrid for 45 million - also fine, we'll just keep building the side, hopefully this time not pissing the funds away on mediocre 'premiership proven'.

I know we've all heard it before, but now we have a manager that can actually do it, and has done it. Right now we sit with Coutinho, Origi, Gomez, Karius, Can, Ojo, Grujic and Matip under the age of 24. Some of them with reasonably good chance of improving further and becoming very good players, possibly world class. I can only see Klopp adding to these.

Unfortunately it's our only way back into the top 3 or 4.

No it's not, we aren't a poor club like Dortmund, we can afford to buy players for £35million and offer them £180k a week, if you only invest in youth and bargains, and sell your best players, you stay sixth. Not that we shouldn't do that, but we need to buy big players like Goetze too if we're ever going to push on and challenge for the title.

 

[mark1975]

No it's not, we aren't a poor club like Dortmund, we can afford to buy players for £35million and offer them £180k a week, if you only invest in youth and bargains, and sell your best players, you stay sixth. Not that we shouldn't do that, but we need to buy big players like Goetze too if we're ever going to push on and challenge for the title.

We can afford players in that bracket, the problem is that we don't usually attract the type of players other top sides attract in that bracket. We usually end up with players other top sides either wouldn't buy, or would buy for less on the understanding a large part of the time they will be on the fringes of the squad. Occasionally we've pulled off a coup, with the likes of Coutinho, Sturridge, Torres, Alonso, Masher and Suarez, but those occasions are few and far between, especially in the last few years.

 

[Mystic]

We can afford players in that bracket, the problem is that we don't usually attract the type of players other top sides attract in that bracket. We usually end up with players other top sides either wouldn't buy, or would buy for less on the understanding a large part of the time they will be on the fringes of the squad. Occasionally we've pulled off a coup, with the likes of Coutinho, Sturridge, Torres, Alonso, Masher and Suarez, but those occasions are few and far between, especially in the last few years.

Indeed, that is a major problem, but you'd hope that Klopp will help change that, because whilst of course we need to stop throwing cash away at stupid purchases like Balotelli and Benteke, we still need players of the calibre of Goetze.

 

[HC]

We cant really afford a slow burn investment in youth that may or may not provide returns in 2016/2017. We need some consistently good players , which are invariably expensive and/or want European football

 

[JohnnyRocket]

There are obviously the signings in the 20 - 30 million bracket where possible that we do need to inject instant quality into the first 11. But I think my point is that we're going to get heavily outspent by City, Chelsea, and United. Our only hope lies in 2 things: 1.) Finding gems and getting Klopp to realise their potential and 2.) Creating an environment and team work ethic that the sides signing 50 mil superstars won't have.

For me, this summer our primary investment should go into creating a spine as strong as possible. In my view this means heavy investment in central defense, defensive midfield and central midfield. The rest of the signings can be younger potential.

 

[Roopy]

For me, this summer our primary investment should go into creating a spine as strong as possible.

Absolutely agree ... a solid spine is the most essential aspect of any team.

Under Rafa we lacked players out wide ... but with a spine featuring Reina, Carragher, Hyypia, Hamann, Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres look how well we did in Europe.

It was the lack of quality on the flanks which led to our demise in the league.

 

[HC]

I don't think that's true , some weird decisions involving Robbie Keane , strange formations and a rafa implosion cost us the league

 

[Mystic]

But I think my point is that we're going to get heavily outspent by City, Chelsea, and United.

That's just not true, the champions league point is completely valid and is a hurdle we have to overcome, but financially, we can compete with anyway.

 

[cloggypop]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor...ga-players-prefer-liverpool-transfer-11376550

 

[mark1975]

I don't think that's true , some weird decisions involving Robbie Keane , strange formations and a rafa implosion cost us the league

That goes hand in hand with it though. We were screaming out for a top quality wide man, so Rafa decided to buy Robbie Keane when we had a perfect pairing in Gerrard and Torres.

 

[manwithnoname]

Anyone who thinks we're going to rebuild back to the top by signing top, well known talent in the 23 - 27 year old bracket is completely wrong.

Klopp's going to do it the way he did at Dortmund - by signing younger talent at reasonable prices and building a team up with no egos and high work ethic. And if a 19 year old we sign turns out to be world class by the age of 21 and stays with us - great. If he forces a move to Real Madrid for 45 million - also fine, we'll just keep building the side, hopefully this time not pissing the funds away on mediocre 'premiership proven'.

I know we've all heard it before, but now we have a manager that can actually do it, and has done it. Right now we sit with Coutinho, Origi, Gomez, Karius, Can, Ojo, Grujic and Matip under the age of 24. Some of them with reasonably good chance of improving further and becoming very good players, possibly world class. I can only see Klopp adding to these.

Unfortunately it's our only way back into the top 3 or 4.

Has this strategy ever worked in the Premiership, the league we play in?

Also:

"Anyone who thinks we're going to rebuild back to the top by signing top, well known talent in the 23 - 27 year old bracket is completely wrong. Klopp's going to do it the way he did at Dortmund - by signing younger talent at reasonable prices"

So you don't think he wants to sign 23 year old Gotze?
He didn't sign Mkhatryan when he was 25 years old for £22m, right under our noses?

How does that fit your narrative?

 

[Arn]

I don't think that's true , some weird decisions involving Robbie Keane , strange formations and a rafa implosion cost us the league

Gillett and Hicks cost us the league. The last couple of years Rafa had to make a profit in the transfer market and sell before he could buy new players.

Remember the hours away from doing a Leeds.

 

[Roopy]

Looks like he is staying at Munich...

 

[Judge Jules]

There are obviously the signings in the 20 - 30 million bracket where possible that we do need to inject instant quality into the first 11. But I think my point is that we're going to get heavily outspent by City, Chelsea, and United. Our only hope lies in 2 things: 1.) Finding gems and getting Klopp to realise their potential and 2.) Creating an environment and team work ethic that the sides signing 50 mil superstars won't have.

For me, this summer our primary investment should go into creating a spine as strong as possible. In my view this means heavy investment in central defense, defensive midfield and central midfield. The rest of the signings can be younger potential.

Agree with a lot of this (except that I don't think we'll be that heavily outspent - Klopp wouldn't have taken the job without a clear assurance that he'll be able to spend what he thinks we need this summer). I particularly agree with the way your last para.mentions the twin track approach we need to take, namely both immediate first team quality and younger potential. It isn't a case of either/or.

 

[JohnnyRocket]

Has this strategy ever worked in the Premiership, the league we play in?

Also:

"Anyone who thinks we're going to rebuild back to the top by signing top, well known talent in the 23 - 27 year old bracket is completely wrong. Klopp's going to do it the way he did at Dortmund - by signing younger talent at reasonable prices"

So you don't think he wants to sign 23 year old Gotze?
He didn't sign Mkhatryan when he was 25 years old for £22m, right under our noses?

How does that fit your narrative?

Of course we'd like to sign great players that aren't priced out of our budget - and willing to come to us. It's a no brainer. And I'm sure we will. We got it right with Suarez and Coutinho and we can do it again. But it doesn't happen often, does it? It's incredibly difficult to convince top players to come to us, even if we're willing to spend a decent wage.

So we end up spending over the odds for pretty average players, and have done this repeatedly for the last 5 years. Benteke, Downing, Lallana, Carroll, Allen, Lovren. That's 150 million right there. And the sad part is that most of our fan base KNEW these players weren't anywhere near worth that money.

My point is this, instead of singing Stewart Downing, in hindsight I'd have signed some 6 million pound 20 year old Argentininan winger from the Spanish league.

This is going to sound crazy, but we need to start thinking like a small club to become a bigger club again. By that I mean simply being 'street smarter' with money, not pissing away millions on average, and putting higher focus on potential. i.e. Become more like Southampton of the last 4 years, but with a bit more status and money. And if that means ending a summer without a couple of 'marquee' signings that are actually pretty average, then so be it.

That's a long winded way of saying if we're going to spend big money on a player, spend it on player where we know we're getting quality and not overpaying for average. Suarez was a no brainer, Mkhitaryan would have been a no brainer, Goetze would have been a no brainer.
​

 

[JohnnyRocket]

Has this strategy ever worked in the Premiership, the league we play in?

Yip

Arsenal 2002 - 2004

Henry, Pires, Vieira, Gilberto, Ljunberg, Toure, Lauren were pretty underwhelming signings when they signed, some of them actually unknown (Pires aside possibly). Wenger saw the potential and nurtured it.

 

[6TimesaRed]

That goes hand in hand with it though. We were screaming out for a top quality wide man, so Rafa decided to buy Robbie Keane when we had a perfect pairing in Gerrard and Torres.

It was heavily documented at the time, Keane was never a Rafa signing.. That was a Parry signing...

It was evident from the word go he never wanted to sign him..

 

[manwithnoname]

Yip

Arsenal 2002 - 2004

Henry, Pires, Vieira, Gilberto, Ljunberg, Toure, Lauren were pretty underwhelming signings when they signed, some of them actually unknown (Pires aside possibly). Wenger saw the potential and nurtured it.

Seems odd that after stumbling upon this amazing strategy, the man responsible hasn't managed to replicate it. Almost as if......it's not easy.

In any case Vieira at this point had been there 6 years already, Pires two seasons, Henry three years, plus there was Bergkamp. Two of those players had already won the title at Arsenal before.

 

[manwithnoname]

It was heavily documented at the time, Keane was never a Rafa signing.. That was a Parry signing...

It was evident from the word go he never wanted to sign him..

Incorrect. Keane was a Benitez target, but he was miffed that Parry signed him first, rather than the player he thought was a priority, Gareth Barry. When that fucked up, it all went sour.

 

[cloggypop]

Yup. Barry then Keane is how I remember it. I also remember Rafa talking about signing a great player from the Premier League who speaks English but isn't English.

 

[Mystic]

Yip

Arsenal 2002 - 2004

Henry, Pires, Vieira, Gilberto, Ljunberg, Toure, Lauren were pretty underwhelming signings when they signed, some of them actually unknown (Pires aside possibly). Wenger saw the potential and nurtured it.

Bergkamp and Henry were the catalysts to that success, and both were signed for Arsenal's record transfer fees at the time. Bergkamp was even the premier league record transfer fee, and Henry's was only eclipsed by Shearer's fee. I'm not sure why you keep harping on at this point, as a club you may strike lucky for the odd season, but if you want to build a team that's going to consistently challenge, you need to spend money.

 

[tombrown]

Bergkamp was an unknown youngster before he signed for Arsenal

 

[dmishra]

Bergkamp was an unknown youngster before he signed for Arsenal

Wtf?

He was considered the best young talent in Holland. Had scored 100 plus goals for Ajax. Twice voted Dutch footballer of the year. Then a 7 million move to Inter.

Two seasons at Inter, where he won the UEFA Cup, and was the top scorer in that competition.

Then a club record move to Arsenal.

 

[tombrown]

snigger

 

[manwithnoname]

Wtf?

He was considered the best young talent in Holland. Had scored 100 plus goals for Ajax. Twice voted Dutch footballer of the year. Then a 7 million move to Inter.

Two seasons at Inter, where he won the UEFA Cup, and was the top scorer in that competition.

Then a club record move to Arsenal.

Oh dear

 

[dmishra]

Have I been whooshed?

 

[Raz]

Same shit, different season, different player, different manager

Init

 

[tombrown]

Sorry, sir. I am in a tit of a mood at the moment

 

[Judge Jules]

Happens to us all. Keeping abreast of developments will fix it.