Glen Johnson

[mark1975]

I know this has been debated, he's a player I rate (as a 'player') but I've always thought he's pretty hapless as a defender as he lacks the concentration levels and positional sense. Arbeloa had a knack of tucking in when needed to tighten the middle and Enrique (on the left) has shown similar attributes of late and knows how to hold his position.

Since Johnson came into the Liverpool side we've been at sixes and sevens. I know there are other factors like the loss of Hyypia that coincided, but we've never had the same shape as our usual 'flat' back four since his arrival. Since he's been out the team we've tightened up and looked like unit again. Though it's fair to say I thought he did exceptionally well last season when asked to play the left back role. I remember a game where he reverted to right back for one match and the mistake seemed to creep back in and he looked nowhere near as assured as he did on the left.

So anyway, what do you think Kenny will do? Will his £20m price tag prove too big a burden, or will The King put the team first and stick to our solid back line of four more defensive players?

For the record I think Glen Jo is a tremendous player on his day in an attacking sense, I just don't think he'll ever give us what we need defensively.

 

[mark1975]

And if someone comes in and bangs on about the midfield protecting the back four allowing the 'rampaging fullbacks' to rampage, I'll be livid, because if a team gets beyond the midfield (and they will) then we're fucked.

Yes Neil, I'm looking at you.

 

[Richey]

I'd give him this season. He is still a decent player and one who might perform better in a team that is performing better as a whole (as I hope we will be!).

Aside from anything else we need to see if the likes of Kelly can be relied upon. He seems to get injured an awful lot.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=46780.msg1395325#msg1395325 date=1315381176]
I'd give him this season. He is still a decent player and one who might perform better in a team that is performing better as a whole (as I hope we will be!).

Aside from anything else we need to see if the likes of Kelly can be relied upon. He seems to get injured an awful lot.
[/quote]

Yeah I think that's the big issue, and he's not been without the odd ups and downs himself defensively, though he does look alot better prospect in that sense, even if he does lack Johnson's attacking threat.

 

[Rosco]

Is this even a debate any more for most LFC fans ?

I think it's pretty clear at this stage that he hurts us defensively, so the natural thing to do is to find a place for him in the team where he doesn't hurt us. Given his skill set there is little or no reason to think he can't be a decent right midfielder.

But would you play him there ahead of Henderson at the moment ?

 

[Judge Jules]

Hold on a bit. There certainly IS a debate to be had about this after Kenny showed how well Magic can defend when he switched him to the left last season. Nobody got the better of him there and he still found the time to go forward effectively. The question is whether the coaching staff and the player himself can keep that standard going now that Magic's back on the right again.

There's also a debate to be had about whether he could and should be switched to RM, but it's one we've had numerous times already on here. I vote "no" and I'd be willing to bet Kenny would agree, or I suspect Henderson mightn't have been signed. If the management's decision is that we're sorted at fullback without Magic I'd sooner cash in on him TBH.

 

[spider-Neil]

The Johnson debate has been done to death all that remains to be seen is whether kenny ops for johnson over kelly. My personal opinion is johnson is one of our most attacking players so I would play him every game, we have a holding midfielder who offers next to nothing going forwards so I would expect him to cover gaps, if he can't do that then don't ask johnson to move forwards with the ball.

 

[dee]

I still consider him to be our first choice right back, with Kelly providing the competition.

Whilst I acknowledge the points Mark makes about his defensive lapses, he proved conclusively that he is not a liability as a defender last season whilst on the left. I see no reason why he can't transfer that form back to the right when given a similar run of games.

 

[HC]

Like bosco I dont understand why we haven't tried him out at rm.

Hes got pace, can beat his man, can whip a half decent ball in and knows how to find the net .

There must be some reason why none of 3 managers have given him a chance at rm?

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=46780.msg1395347#msg1395347 date=1315385051]
Like bosco I dont understand why we haven't tried him out at rm.

Hes got pace, can beat his man, can whip a half decent ball in and knows how to find the net .

There must be some reason why none of 3 managers have given him a chance at rm?
[/quote]

Did he ever play at right mid at any other club?

 

[Judge Jules]

He had a stint there at Pompey, but it didn't last long. I believe he may have played there at Chelsea as well but again that will only have been for a minimal number of games, and IMO it's significant that no manager has ever kept him there for any length of time.

I don't find it as difficult as some to see why not TBH. Running forward with the ball from the back, when you have time and space (initially at least) in which to operate, is a very different matter from receiving the ball further up the pitch, quite possibly facing your own goal with an opposition player already up your jacksie marking you.

 

[HC]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=46780.msg1395350#msg1395350 date=1315385395]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=46780.msg1395347#msg1395347 date=1315385051]
Like bosco I dont understand why we haven't tried him out at rm.

Hes got pace, can beat his man, can whip a half decent ball in and knows how to find the net .

There must be some reason why none of 3 managers have given him a chance at rm?
[/quote]

Did he ever play at right mid at any other club?
[/quote]

Pompeg during his final season there ?

 

[hmmmmm1]

Signed a 2 year contract extension this summer, will start at RB when fit

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=46780.msg1395353#msg1395353 date=1315385755]
He had a stint there at Pompey, but it didn't last long. I believe he may have played there at Chelsea as well but again that will only have been for a minimal number of games, and IMO it's significant that no manager has ever kept him there for any length of time.

I don't find it as difficult as some to see why not TBH. Running forward with the ball from the back, when you have time and space (initially at least) in which to operate, is a very different matter from receiving the ball further up the pitch, quite possibly facing your own goal with an opposition player already up your jacksie marking you.
[/quote]

Glen Johnson is an excellent footballer though. Good footballers adapt. I really don't think it would be such a leap for him.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=46780.msg1395353#msg1395353 date=1315385755]
He had a stint there at Pompey, but it didn't last long. I believe he may have played there at Chelsea as well but again that will only have been for a minimal number of games, and IMO it's significant that no manager has ever kept him there for any length of time.

I don't find it as difficult as some to see why not TBH. Running forward with the ball from the back, when you have time and space (initially at least) in which to operate, is a very different matter from receiving the ball further up the pitch, quite possibly facing your own goal with an opposition player already up your jacksie marking you.
[/quote]

Most managers are idiots, that's an important thing to remember.

Johnson does all his best work in the last third of the field, he'd have no problem playing wide right in a 4-4-2. Absolutely none. All his best traits would be brought to bear more often in a game and we would be essentially hiding his weaknesses. If he is to be of any value to us at all we need to try him there.

He's second choice at both right and left back for me, and given his wages have always been rumoured to be in the 90-140k range I doubt we'd have (m)any takers if we were to sell him. To me he's either a RW or a really expensive back up fullback. If we're committed to trying to get the most out of everything we have then we have to at least try him there occasionally.

And i really hate Spidey's assertion that Johnson's laziness and ill discpline should be covered by the rest of the team. He makes about four positive contributions a season from RB, we should not be fucking about with the team to accommodate that.

 

[mark1975]

That last bit (by Ross) is bang on and what I was going on about at the end of the first post, it's fucking dumb and over-complicating things. A defensive midfielder should be plugging the gaps of the fullbacks? So who should be plugging the gap left by the defensive midfielder who is plugging the gap left by the fullbacks. And who should....

We need defenders that can defend, we need a balanced midfield with two sat in the middle, one industrious and one who can pass the ball well, the rest is fucking obvious and aslong as the aforementioned are doing their jobs, they should be allowed to concentrate on theirs. Simples.

Regards how good Johnson was at left back, well that's really the point, he played better at left back than he does at right back and we now have a new left back who looks good enough so far, so........

 

[HC]

@ mark and rosco : mascherano did and excelled at the very thing you think a DM ( defensive midfielder should be doing )

In the absence of a destroyer class defensive midfielder, glen most definitely looked dodge.

I'm not sure what people expect - when evra bombs forward for utd there's usually a body In there to plug the gap; you can't expect glen to be able to bomb it down the wing And not be compromised if we lose possession whilst he's out of position.

His more restrained lb performances proved he can defend when deployed as a defender .

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=46780.msg1395364#msg1395364 date=1315387254]
That last bit (by Ross) is bang on and what I was going on about at the end of the first post, it's fucking dumb and over-complicating things. A defensive midfielder should be plugging the gaps of the fullbacks? So who should be plugging the gap left by the defensive midfielder who is plugging the gap left by the fullbacks. And who should....

We need defenders that can defend, we need a balanced midfield with two sat in the middle, one industrious and one who can pass the ball well, the rest is fucking obvious and aslong as the aforementioned are doing their jobs, they should be allowed to concentrate on theirs. Simples.
[/quote]

the way I see it is the fullbacks who have been more solid defensively have not got forwards as much as johnson, not difficult to be solid if you are rooted to the toe of your keeper. ross has brought up the 'positive contribution/assist' chestnut nut again (hilarious), it isn't only about the direct assists it's about supporting the right midfielder or BEING the right midfielder if the right midfielder continually moves infield, it's about making runs and dragging centre backs away from the penalty box, also I think johnson's defensive laspes are exaggerated.

anyway, like I said in my first post it remains to be seen whether kenny prefers kelly to johnson. I prefer johnson but if kenny goes for kelly I'm not going to be that bothered about it.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=46780.msg1395367#msg1395367 date=1315387772]
you can't expect glen to be able to bomb it down the wing And not be compromised if we lose possession whilst he's out of position.



[/quote]

it's like people expect johnson to occupy two points in time and space at the same time. even the flash isn't that fast.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

But if the right back goes up the wing, and the defensive midfielder covers, and the attacking midfielder moves back to cover him, and the striker moves back to cover him, who's left in the box for him to cross to? I guess we could send Reina up, but that'd mean we'd have to put Downing in goal, and then have no width on the left hand side.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=46780.msg1395367#msg1395367 date=1315387772]
@ mark and rosco : mascherano did and excelled at the very thing you think a DM ( defensive midfielder should be doing )

In the absence of a destroyer class defensive midfielder, glen most definitely looked dodge.

I'm not sure what people expect - when evra bombs forward for utd there's usually a body In there to plug the gap; you can't expect glen to be able to bomb it down the wing And not be compromised if we lose possession whilst he's out of position.

His more restrained lb performances proved he can defend when deployed as a defender .
[/quote]

Usually when the fullback bombs forward the defence becomes stretched and the centre back moves over slightly to cover, of course other players step in too to cover, the problem with Johnson is that he leaves gaps and alot of the time trudges back or doesn't even bother and we're left wide open and stretched. That's the difference. Evra is a much better defender than Johnson is too.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=46780.msg1395370#msg1395370 date=1315388014]
But if the right back goes up the wing, and the defensive midfielder covers, and the attacking midfielder moves back to cover him, and the striker moves back to cover him, who's left in the box for him to cross to? I guess we could send Reina up, but that'd mean we'd have to put Downing in goal, and then have no width on the left hand side.
[/quote]

basically when fullback moves forwards then the holding midfielder and centre backs and fullback on the opposit flank tuck in. it's not like carra and lucas get forwards anyway.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=46780.msg1395368#msg1395368 date=1315387833]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=46780.msg1395364#msg1395364 date=1315387254]
That last bit (by Ross) is bang on and what I was going on about at the end of the first post, it's fucking dumb and over-complicating things. A defensive midfielder should be plugging the gaps of the fullbacks? So who should be plugging the gap left by the defensive midfielder who is plugging the gap left by the fullbacks. And who should....

We need defenders that can defend, we need a balanced midfield with two sat in the middle, one industrious and one who can pass the ball well, the rest is fucking obvious and aslong as the aforementioned are doing their jobs, they should be allowed to concentrate on theirs. Simples.
[/quote]

the way I see it is the fullbacks who have been more solid defensively have not got forwards as much as johnson, not difficult to be solid if you are rooted to the toe of your keeper. ross has brought up the 'positive contribution/assist' chestnut nut again (hilarious), it isn't only about the direct assists it's about supporting the right midfielder or BEING the right midfielder if the right midfielder continually moves infield, it's about making runs and dragging centre backs away from the penalty box, also I think johnson's defensive laspes are exaggerated.

anyway, like I said in my first post it remains to be seen whether kenny prefers kelly to johnson. I prefer johnson but if kenny goes for kelly I'm not going to be that bothered about it.
[/quote]

That's ridiculously myopic. Enrique was cautious in his first game but has found the right balance between defence and attack fairly quickly, the same could be said for Arbeloa who was criminally underrated (Finnan too for that matter), especially going forward, neither got caught much and neither had the amount of pace Johnson has, it's not like he's too slow to get back, he just switches off and it proves costly.

Enrique isn't "rooted to the toe of the keeper" or particularly over cautious. Your ideals of what a full should be are WAY over the top at times and probably compensating for the fact that we haven't had decent wide men for a while. The system is daft because you've got players overcompensating for other players deficiencies, which is pointless and pretty much mirrors many of our flaws under Benitez and Houllier.

 

[mark1975]

I guess the best way to look at it is our record with Johnson in the side from a defensive point of view, I'd wager it's well better when he's not there (or not playing right back), it certainly has been so far this season. We're not perfect at the back, which is why we've invested in a centre back and a left back, but we're certainly more balanced and more of a unit when he isn't there, and it hasn't exactly stopped us scoring goals, has it?

 

[HC]

Let's all watch how evra, boswinga and Alves do it this weekend. I'd wager that a team mate , cb / DM whoever will cover them whilst they go forward.

You can't play a wingback and not expec him to either not get forward and become exposed if he does . If we've got possession it's not even our problem - total football etc , all great teams have / had fluidity and a system which allows players to interchange positions. Ultimately, I guess I'm saying f you play him you can't pin the blame solely on him for being caught out of place give his style of play.

At the End of the day, If you want a rock solid RB play Kelly, he's shown he's more than capable getting forward anyways.

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Kelly is a better defender and is good enough going forward.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=46780.msg1395379#msg1395379 date=1315388705]
Let's all watch how evra, boswinga and Alves do it this weekend. I'd wager that a team mate , cb / DM whoever will cover them whilst they go forward.

You can't play a wingback and not expec him to either not get forward and become exposed if he does . If we've got possession it's not even our problem - total football etc , all great teams have / had fluidity and a system which allows players to interchange positions. Ultimately, I guess I'm saying f you play him you can't pin the blame solely on him for being caught out of place give his style of play.

At the End of the day, If you want a rock solid RB play Kelly, he's shown he's more than capable getting forward anyways.
[/quote]

That's missing the point though H, I'm not saying it's not a normal tactic, it's how well utilised it is in the system you use and it hasn't worked for us with him at right back, not consistently enough anyway and there must be a reason why. So either the covering players aren't doing their jobs or Johnson doesn't have the intelligence to perform in that way, knowing when to sit and when to make the run, and most of all, staying alert and tracking back and not leaving big gaping holes that unsettle the rest of the backline.

Another point too, Skrtel and Carragher were both performing ALOT better before he came into the side, any coincidence that both play on the right side of defence? Both get horribly exposed and isolated at times because the soft cunt is too busy playing with his hair on the half way line.

 

[mark1975]

To be fair aswell, he's had one of the most defensive minded right wingers infront of him alot of the time and still fucked up.

 

[Rosco]

Is it worth pointing out that with Johnson as a regular we've had our worst two seasons in a decade ?

 

[HC]

I still think your bring very harsh on him.

He's a Wing back, full back, attacking right back - whatever you want to label him, im not saying that voids him of any defensive capabilities but I'd suggest Lucas and or the playing right cb were just as much to blame .

You could say their performances have improved due to a lessened work load.


You phyiscally cannot say glen ' I want you to bomb forward at every opportunity but never get caught out of position ' as he'll clearly never be capable of that. Either give him that attacking license and accommodate him or give him a mote conservative role as he had at lb last season and have fewer worries .