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Gerrard's face after the substitution

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[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39651.msg1082948#msg1082948 date=1270551718]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082940#msg1082940 date=1270551063]
I'll also add over playing barnes, owen and fowler fucked them up.
[/quote]

He's only played about 25 games this season!
[/quote]

he should have played but there was an ice pack on his leg, prevention is better than cure.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082954#msg1082954 date=1270552029]


he should have played but there was an ice pack on his leg, prevention is better than cure.
[/quote]

And 3 points is better than 1
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082954#msg1082954 date=1270552029]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39651.msg1082948#msg1082948 date=1270551718]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082940#msg1082940 date=1270551063]
I'll also add over playing barnes, owen and fowler fucked them up.
[/quote]

He's only played about 25 games this season!
[/quote]

he should have played but there was an ice pack on his leg, prevention is better than cure.
[/quote]
He wasn't injured.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39651.msg1082956#msg1082956 date=1270552108]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082954#msg1082954 date=1270552029]


he should have played but there was an ice pack on his leg, prevention is better than cure.
[/quote]

And 3 points is better than 1
[/quote]

well obviously. the pisser is nando has been playing pretty much continuously since he has been here and that trend will continue because he is playing in the summer.
we can pretty much all agree he should have stayed on the pitch but I'd also hope we can also agree that he is tired and I think the reason he didn't score that goal v benfica was because he was knackered. maybe rafa should have made ngog do all the leg work and then unleashed torres in the fina 20 minutes but I'd hate to see the forum if rafa attempted such a thing.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082945#msg1082945 date=1270551410]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=39651.msg1082941#msg1082941 date=1270551134]
I don't know why you're arguing or what your argument is half the time spidey. It doesn't seem to be a case of devils (or cretins advocate), so what's going on. It's all very conflicted, arguing the case for everyones points almost and rambling on in a million different directons.
[/quote]

I don't really argue for or against rafa I try and figure out WHY he does what he does instead of going 'he's fucking lost the plot!!' I find it a more liberating exercise.
[/quote]

It is often a pointless exercise too Neil. We can all find reason to justify decisions. However, these reasons seem to act as excuses and it seems some will try apportion the blame everywhere and anywhere but at the managers door.
 
when do you rest someone, when they are tired or when they are injuried? surely resting someone when they are inuried defeats the purpose entirely, that's like locking the gate after the horses have bolted.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082686#msg1082686 date=1270513244]
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=39651.msg1082684#msg1082684 date=1270513161]
Ryan, the reason you leave Torres on is because he can finish better than any other player we have, not because of a hypothetical.

[/quote]

So then Torres should never ever be subsituted that what you're saying?
[/quote]

No 'would haves' from me Ryan, because that's assuming the same pass would have been played and Torres would have made the same runs.

The fact is though, with only a few games left and 4th place essential, it was a shit decision, however much Rafa tries to dress it up. And saying N'Gog 'did well' after fucking up a couple of chances is just insulting our intelligence. It was Sunday, with over four days until our next game for an early 20's super fit athlete to recover. We need 4th place more than we need UEFA Cup success anyway.

I'm not particularly overawed with Torres' attitude of late, but saying he should have been hooked or that Rafa was right, when we clearly have no one even close to the same quality is just mad.

The fact of the matter is, we drew the match so the gamble didn't pay off because whatever N'Gog and co brought to the game, we didn't score the goal to win us the game, despite creating some good chances.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082965#msg1082965 date=1270552598]
when do you rest someone, when they are tired or when they are injuried? surely resting someone when they are inuried defeats the purpose entirely, that's like locking the gate after the horses have bolted.
[/quote]

Neil I'm all for protecting a player from injury but there was no talk or sign of an injury to Torres. Yes he was fatigued and this may lead to injury but it's only hypothetical scare mongering that he would get injured if he stayed on. Yes it is also hypothetical that he would have scored but we'll never know. A gamble was taken, it didn't pay off.
 
In the Goodison derby a couple of seasons back it was the same situation. Torres was moaning at the ref, giving the crowd shit and generally sulking, and then he popped up with a goal and the game was won.

Whatever his attitude or body language, the fact is there's only one player in the side you'd want on the end of a created opportunity. Sulking or not.
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39651.msg1082973#msg1082973 date=1270553036]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082965#msg1082965 date=1270552598]
when do you rest someone, when they are tired or when they are injuried? surely resting someone when they are inuried defeats the purpose entirely, that's like locking the gate after the horses have bolted.
[/quote]



Neil I'm all for protecting a player from injury but there was no talk or sign of an injury to Torres. Yes he was fatigued and this may lead to injury but it's a hypothetical that he would get injured if he stayed on. Yes it is also hypothetical that he would have scored but we'll never know. A gamble was taken, it didn't pay off.
[/quote]

as I said I would have left him on, if that meant not starting him v benfica then so be it but rafa would be hung out to drag if he doesn't start torres. the question is can torres play full out for five games and europe, rafa knows the answer to that probably better than even torres himself.
 
The 3 points against Birmingham are INFINITELY more important than the game against Benfica.

Fuck the OOFA Cup.
 
[quote author=Stu link=topic=39651.msg1082534#msg1082534 date=1270483628]
a095b62ba601cdf2e9b5ff3d0e9c8069_gerrardscratch.gif

[/quote]


That just says it all really.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39651.msg1082988#msg1082988 date=1270553915]

The 3 points against Birmingham are INFINITELY more important than the game against Benfica.

Fuck the OOFA Cup.
[/quote]

That all depends on your perspective. If you're a manager on your last legs, looking to salvage some level of respect (particularly from potential suitors) from an absolutely horrific season, then you might conclude that the UEFA Cup represents a more favourable return for your efforts than a potentially fruitless battle for fourth place.
 
That clip gets more fascinating the more I watch it. First there's Torres' puzzled look and shake of the head as he's passing Stevie, which suggests Stevie may have asked him whether he was injured (what else could it be down to?). Then there's the fact that Torres runs rather than walks off, which players being subbed rarely do, especially if they ARE injured. Was he trying to make a point?
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39651.msg1083100#msg1083100 date=1270565773]
That clip gets more fascinating the more I watch it. First there's Torres' puzzled look and shake of the head as he's passing Stevie, which suggests Stevie may have asked him whether he was injured (what else could it be down to?). Then there's the fact that Torres runs rather than walks off, which players being subbed rarely do, especially if they ARE injured. Was he trying to make a point?
[/quote]

Stevie really prolongs his unbelieving gaze as well. I suspect he knew perfectly well that the TV cameras would be pointing at him.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39651.msg1083105#msg1083105 date=1270565961]
I suspect he knew perfectly well that the TV cameras would be pointing at him.

[/quote]

Seriously?

I'd very much doubt that. I'd say it was just a reaction to the decision, I doubt he thought about the cameras at the time.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39651.msg1083098#msg1083098 date=1270565355]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39651.msg1082988#msg1082988 date=1270553915]

The 3 points against Birmingham are INFINITELY more important than the game against Benfica.

Fuck the OOFA Cup.
[/quote]

That all depends on your perspective. If you're a manager on your last legs, looking to salvage some level of respect (particularly from potential suitors) from an absolutely horrific season, then you might conclude that the UEFA Cup represents a more favourable return for your efforts than a potentially fruitless battle for fourth place.
[/quote]


True, but I meant for us.

Nel is suggesting that Rafa took off Torres with a view to Benfica, and he's probably right.

But it was a realy stupid decision.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39651.msg1083100#msg1083100 date=1270565773]
That clip gets more fascinating the more I watch it. First there's Torres' puzzled look and shake of the head as he's passing Stevie, which suggests Stevie may have asked him whether he was injured (what else could it be down to?). Then there's the fact that Torres runs rather than walks off, which players being subbed rarely do, especially if they ARE injured. Was he trying to make a point?
[/quote]

Nobody trudges off slowly if their team are chasing the game, and I don't think see either player making a point to the cameras, the reactions were genuine.
 
Didn't mean to come off as condescending, but at 1-1 we were still chasing a winner, and I'd have thought it highly unlikely that Torres would slowly trudge off.

I can also see suggestions that Gerrard's reaction was for the TV cameras, which wouldn't deem it genuine. He looked in pretty solid disbelief to me.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39651.msg1083128#msg1083128 date=1270570091]
We weren't chasing the game, and nobody doubts the reactions were genuine. But thanks for sharing.
[/quote]Course we were chasing the game. And for the record Torres always jogs off.
 
[Handshake graemlin]

See your point, gentlemen, about chasing a winner (even if we weren't actually doing much chasing at the time!). Torres' reaction to what I assume must have been a question from Stevie remains, though. As for Stevie's own reaction, I don't think it's being alleged that he manufactured it for the cameras. The suggestion is rather that he emphasised it by holding on to it for a longer time than might have been expected, which IMO he did (for whatever reason), and he'll have known that the chances of him being spotted would increase if he did that.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39651.msg1083140#msg1083140 date=1270571655]
[Handshake graemlin]

See your point, gentlemen, about chasing a winner (even if we weren't actually doing much chasing at the time!). Torres' reaction to what I assume must have been a question from Stevie remains, though. As for Stevie's own reaction, I don't think it's being alleged that he manufactured it for the cameras. The suggestion is rather that he emphasised it by holding on to it for a longer time than might have been expected, which IMO he did (for whatever reason), and he'll have known that the chances of him being spotted would increase if he did that.
[/quote]Yup there was deffo a question from Stevie. 'you injured?' would be my guess.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39651.msg1083140#msg1083140 date=1270571655]
[Handshake graemlin]

See your point, gentlemen, about chasing a winner (even if we weren't actually doing much chasing at the time!). Torres' reaction to what I assume must have been a question from Stevie remains, though. As for Stevie's own reaction, I don't think it's being alleged that he manufactured it for the cameras. The suggestion is rather that he emphasised it by holding on to it for a longer time than might have been expected, which IMO he did (for whatever reason), and he'll have known that the chances of him being spotted would increase if he did that.
[/quote]

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I'm sure the horror was totally genuine, but Stevie's been a star long enough to know that people watch players' reactions to things like that.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=39651.msg1083106#msg1083106 date=1270566192]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39651.msg1083105#msg1083105 date=1270565961]
I suspect he knew perfectly well that the TV cameras would be pointing at him.

[/quote]

Seriously?

I'd very much doubt that. I'd say it was just a reaction to the decision, I doubt he thought about the cameras at the time.
[/quote]

He was probably wondering what the reaction would be like on SCM. Like he couldn't have guessed!
 
This all seems a bit too Machiavellian to me.

Gerrard was just frustrated and angry at seeing our best chance for a win jog off the pitch.

Simples.
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=39651.msg1083148#msg1083148 date=1270572130]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=39651.msg1083106#msg1083106 date=1270566192]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39651.msg1083105#msg1083105 date=1270565961]
I suspect he knew perfectly well that the TV cameras would be pointing at him.

[/quote]

Seriously?

I'd very much doubt that. I'd say it was just a reaction to the decision, I doubt he thought about the cameras at the time.
[/quote]

He was probably wondering what the reaction would be like on SCM. Like he couldn't have guessed!
[/quote]Whats that? That 99.9% of posters would think it was a bullshit decision and that Rafa was a clueless, smug bellend and the other 0.1% would be wrong?
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39651.msg1083173#msg1083173 date=1270574819]
Fucking hell!

*shakes head*
[/quote]Problem?
 
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