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Gerrard's face after the substitution

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I know zero about football?

How can you say that?
Seriously, fucking HOW?

Poor the O'Tomkins, I get thing right about ten times more often than you.

Still, like the massive divvy you are, I'll be happy to leave you endlessly quacking on about how Benitez and his pet shit players like Lucas, his shit tactics, line-ups and transfers and rubbish substitutions are *actually* really clever, while we finish 6th and Benitez (hopefully)gets sacked. And our only good players (Gerrard, Torresn Masher) leave. So you can play chalkboards with scopers like Insua, Lucas and Eggnog to your hearts content
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39651.msg1082790#msg1082790 date=1270538225]
I know zero about football?

How can you say that?
Seriously, fucking HOW?

Poor the O'Tomkins, I get thing right about ten times more often than you.

Still, like the massive divvy you are, I'll be happy to leave you endlessly quacking on about how Benitez and his pet shit players like Lucas, his shit tactics, line-ups and transfers and rubbish substitutions are *actually* really clever, while we finish 6th and Benitez (hopefully)gets sacked. And our only good players (Gerrard, Torresn Masher) leave. So you can play chalkboards with scopers like Insua, Lucas and Eggnog to your hearts content



[/quote]

You must be bored as me to have gone to the bother of typing all that.
 
I think the bottom line goes something like this:

Regardless of form, attitude or whatever - nuts on the chopping board when you get a chance in the dying minutes of a must win game, who do you want it to fall to?

For me the answer is Torres or Gerrard in that order.

Only one of them was on the pitch
 
that sub is a difficult one for me because on the one hand I was absolutely gobsmacked by the decision, put it this way I certainly wouldn't have subbed torres even though he was having a mare but on the other hand if rafa can see he is tired and struggling (and he's paid to look for the signs, prevention is better than cure) and took him off as a precaution because injuries whilst tired are more than likely to happen due to overexertion from two grueling games in a row, then I admire rafa for subbing him and putting the welfare of the player first and foremost. only rafa knows why he really took torres off
 
Single is bang on the money. It's as simple as he says, would you rather the ball fall to torres or n'gog?
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082722#msg1082722 date=1270518250]
Torres comes off and we start creating chances. We created 1 while he was on the pitch, and 10 when he was off it. That say's to me that the substitution was a good one.
[/quote]

Ryan, perhaps we created more chances as the team as a whole attacked more towards the end. Johnson advanced into the final third, we increased the tempo and the Brum players tired. All this contributed to the chances created late on. Removing Torres from the pitch didn't suddenly lead us to create more chances. N'gog made one chance on his own due to his fresh legs (the ball over the top from Gerrard) but he fluffed it. His other chances fell to him in the box. This isn't a dig at N'gog, he was good when he came on but he lacked that killer instinct to win us the game.
 
I would have like Torres to stay on. Regardless of his performance he's a player who can suddenly pop up and plant one in the back of the net. He's done it countless times before. Ngog didn't play badly but was wasteful with the chances he had. The lad tried and shouldn't be slaughtered for it but he's not got what it takes to be a top class player, it's obvious.

There's many other points that need to be made. Yes, it was a must win game but we should never have been put in a position where an away game to Birmingham was a must win game. We've fucked up over the whole season and shouldn't rely on a run of six "must win" games to qualify in 4th. It's too late now. Benitez is accountable for that. Having Ngog as primary striking cover is unacceptable. Benitez is accountable for that too.

As for Brums goal, the defending was shocking and the scorer had about an acre of pitch to run into completely unmarked.
 
Sunny the apologists will counter that with;

- Torres attitude stank. We created more with N'gog on instead.
- Who are we mere mortal to question the managers decision.
- It's the owners fault we have no back up for Torres.

Rafa seems to be exonerated from all blame as per usual.
 
Ryan has a point. Most people were giving torres shit in the match thread, because he WAS rubbish.
That's where his common sense ends.

Not one sensible football fan in the world would replace Torres for N'Gog in a must win game with 25 minutes to go.
You are being too smart for your own good mate.

Your Joe Cole reasoning is a bit tenuous given that he was replaced by Robben or Duff or Gudjohnson or some other world class seasoned pro. We don't have that luxury and as such we shouldn't entertain the idea.

Yep for 60 minutes Torres looked not up to scratch like he did against Villa this year and Sunderland last year both games he won in the last 5 minutes. What has N'Gog done to suggest he is a better option to do that in a game we cannot afford to not take 3 pts in? Nothing we all know it mate. It was a shit decision in a season of shit decisions

And we DIDNT win. So it wasn't a good substitution.
 
Also weren't Chelsea already winning when Joe Cole was taken off? Hardly the same as taking off your best player in a must win game.
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39651.msg1082879#msg1082879 date=1270545981]
Sunny the apologists will counter that with;

- Torres attitude stank. We created more with N'gog on instead.
- Who are we mere mortal to question the managers decision.
- It's the owners fault we have no back up for Torres.

Rafa seems to be exonerated from all blame as per usual.
[/quote]

It's not the owners fault we have no back up for Torres. £20m could have been spent on a class striker instead of a midfielder who's always crocked and never plays
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39651.msg1082893#msg1082893 date=1270547821]
Also weren't Chelsea already winning when Joe Cole was taken off? Hardly the same as taking off your best player in a must win game.


[/quote]

This reminds me of O'Tomkins quacking on about United playing two DMs as if this was somehow "right" and using a game in which they lost as the example.

Or that time he was made to look a fool by a poster using stills of the game in question to hand him his arse on a plate

Or the infamous "How can that team work? Seriously, fucking HOW?"

In fact, he's been a joke all fucking season and has got it right about as often as Benitez has. ie not very.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39651.msg1082896#msg1082896 date=1270547990]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39651.msg1082879#msg1082879 date=1270545981]
Sunny the apologists will counter that with;

- Torres attitude stank. We created more with N'gog on instead.
- Who are we mere mortal to question the managers decision.
- It's the owners fault we have no back up for Torres.

Rafa seems to be exonerated from all blame as per usual.
[/quote]

It's not the owners fault we have no back up for Torres. £20m could have been spent on a class striker instead of a midfielder who's always crocked and never plays
[/quote]

that's as may be but why wasn't the keane money forthcoming? the owners reap what they sow, by holding on to that 12-16m they stand to lose a lot more with no CL. how do we know rafa wasn't promised the keane money and went about his shopping (buying a fullback and a midfielder) expecting money for a striker from the sold striker and that money never came.
 
Torres is the World's best striker.

-You don't take him off in a must-win game

-You don't take him off if he's having a shit game, because as all top strikers have proved countless fucking times - they can be utterly anonymous and STILL produce the goods in the dying seconds.


If your families lives depended on a shot on goal in the 93rd minute, I don't think there would be many cretins who would choose N'gog (or anyone else for the record) over Torres.
 
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39651.msg1082910#msg1082910 date=1270549024]
-You don't take him off if he's having a shit game, because as all top strikers have proved countless fucking times - they can be utterly anonymous and STILL produce the goods in the dying seconds.




[/quote]

so torres is beyond subbing?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082903#msg1082903 date=1270548350]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39651.msg1082896#msg1082896 date=1270547990]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39651.msg1082879#msg1082879 date=1270545981]
Sunny the apologists will counter that with;

- Torres attitude stank. We created more with N'gog on instead.
- Who are we mere mortal to question the managers decision.
- It's the owners fault we have no back up for Torres.

Rafa seems to be exonerated from all blame as per usual.
[/quote]

It's not the owners fault we have no back up for Torres. £20m could have been spent on a class striker instead of a midfielder who's always crocked and never plays
[/quote]

that's as may be but why wasn't the keane money forthcoming? the owners reap what they sow, by holding on to that 12-16m they stand to lose a lot more with no CL. how do we know rafa wasn't promised the keane money and went about his shopping (buying a fullback and a midfielder) expecting money for a striker from the sold striker and that money never came.
[/quote]

Which is fair point Neil. I want the owners to fuck off too. End of the day a striker was more of priority for me
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082911#msg1082911 date=1270549134]
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39651.msg1082910#msg1082910 date=1270549024]
-You don't take him off if he's having a shit game, because as all top strikers have proved countless fucking times - they can be utterly anonymous and STILL produce the goods in the dying seconds.




[/quote]

so torres is beyond subbing?
[/quote]


in a must win game YES


when we're 3 nil up against Fulham, no.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39651.msg1082913#msg1082913 date=1270549167]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082903#msg1082903 date=1270548350]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39651.msg1082896#msg1082896 date=1270547990]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39651.msg1082879#msg1082879 date=1270545981]
Sunny the apologists will counter that with;

- Torres attitude stank. We created more with N'gog on instead.
- Who are we mere mortal to question the managers decision.
- It's the owners fault we have no back up for Torres.

Rafa seems to be exonerated from all blame as per usual.
[/quote]

It's not the owners fault we have no back up for Torres. £20m could have been spent on a class striker instead of a midfielder who's always crocked and never plays
[/quote]

that's as may be but why wasn't the keane money forthcoming? the owners reap what they sow, by holding on to that 12-16m they stand to lose a lot more with no CL. how do we know rafa wasn't promised the keane money and went about his shopping (buying a fullback and a midfielder) expecting money for a striker from the sold striker and that money never came.
[/quote]

Which is fair point Neil. I want the owners to fuck off too. End of the day a striker was more of priority for me
[/quote]

this is pure speculation from me but say what you want about rafa he is no fool (you'd think) he knows full well torres is a injury prone striker with the only other out and out striker a 20 year od kid (kuyt and babel pretty much playing all the games out wide) I seriously think that if he know how much money he was getting up front he would have bought a striker no question. if he knew he wouldn't have got the keane money I doubt he would have sold keane, I am 100% convinced he didn't sell babel in jan (after the twitter debacle) because he was told the babel money wouldn't be reinvested in the team so pulled the plug.

rafa was shafted in the summer, but that doesn't excuse buying an injury prone midfielder.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39651.msg1082896#msg1082896 date=1270547990]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39651.msg1082879#msg1082879 date=1270545981]
Sunny the apologists will counter that with;

- Torres attitude stank. We created more with N'gog on instead.
- Who are we mere mortal to question the managers decision.
- It's the owners fault we have no back up for Torres.

Rafa seems to be exonerated from all blame as per usual.
[/quote]

It's not the owners fault we have no back up for Torres. £20m could have been spent on a class striker instead of a midfielder who's always crocked and never plays
[/quote]

Oh I agree. I was just providing the usual excuses from the Rafa apologists.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082920#msg1082920 date=1270549557]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39651.msg1082913#msg1082913 date=1270549167]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082903#msg1082903 date=1270548350]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39651.msg1082896#msg1082896 date=1270547990]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39651.msg1082879#msg1082879 date=1270545981]
Sunny the apologists will counter that with;

- Torres attitude stank. We created more with N'gog on instead.
- Who are we mere mortal to question the managers decision.
- It's the owners fault we have no back up for Torres.

Rafa seems to be exonerated from all blame as per usual.
[/quote]

It's not the owners fault we have no back up for Torres. £20m could have been spent on a class striker instead of a midfielder who's always crocked and never plays
[/quote]

that's as may be but why wasn't the keane money forthcoming? the owners reap what they sow, by holding on to that 12-16m they stand to lose a lot more with no CL. how do we know rafa wasn't promised the keane money and went about his shopping (buying a fullback and a midfielder) expecting money for a striker from the sold striker and that money never came.
[/quote]

Which is fair point Neil. I want the owners to fuck off too. End of the day a striker was more of priority for me
[/quote]

this is pure speculation from me but say what you want about rafa he is no fool (you'd think) he knows full well torres is a injury prone striker with the only other out and out striker a 20 year od kid (kuyt and babel pretty much playing all the games out wide) I seriously think that if he know how much money he was getting up front he would have bought a striker no question. if he knew he wouldn't have got the keane money I doubt he would have sold keane, I am 100% convinced he didn't sell babel in jan (after the twitter debacle) because he was told the babel money wouldn't be reinvested in the team so pulled the plug.

rafa was shafted in the summer, but that doesn't excuse buying an injury prone midfielder.
[/quote]Point of order.
Rafa is a fucking fool.
He thinks laughing and smiling in a post match interview in which he has taken off the worlds best striker and replacedhim with some miss and miss kid and cost us any chance we had left of 4th place and champions league football next year is acceptable. Smug twat.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082911#msg1082911 date=1270549134]
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39651.msg1082910#msg1082910 date=1270549024]
-You don't take him off if he's having a shit game, because as all top strikers have proved countless fucking times - they can be utterly anonymous and STILL produce the goods in the dying seconds.




[/quote]

so torres is beyond subbing?
[/quote]

For a club in our situation Torres is WAY BEYOND subbing... He is so far beyond subbing that you cant even imagine.....
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082920#msg1082920 date=1270549557]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39651.msg1082913#msg1082913 date=1270549167]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082903#msg1082903 date=1270548350]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39651.msg1082896#msg1082896 date=1270547990]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39651.msg1082879#msg1082879 date=1270545981]
Sunny the apologists will counter that with;

- Torres attitude stank. We created more with N'gog on instead.
- Who are we mere mortal to question the managers decision.
- It's the owners fault we have no back up for Torres.

Rafa seems to be exonerated from all blame as per usual.
[/quote]

It's not the owners fault we have no back up for Torres. £20m could have been spent on a class striker instead of a midfielder who's always crocked and never plays
[/quote]

that's as may be but why wasn't the keane money forthcoming? the owners reap what they sow, by holding on to that 12-16m they stand to lose a lot more with no CL. how do we know rafa wasn't promised the keane money and went about his shopping (buying a fullback and a midfielder) expecting money for a striker from the sold striker and that money never came.
[/quote]

Which is fair point Neil. I want the owners to fuck off too. End of the day a striker was more of priority for me
[/quote]

this is pure speculation from me but say what you want about rafa he is no fool (you'd think) he knows full well torres is a injury prone striker with the only other out and out striker a 20 year od kid (kuyt and babel pretty much playing all the games out wide) I seriously think that if he know how much money he was getting up front he would have bought a striker no question. if he knew he wouldn't have got the keane money I doubt he would have sold keane, I am 100% convinced he didn't sell babel in jan (after the twitter debacle) because he was told the babel money wouldn't be reinvested in the team so pulled the plug.

rafa was shafted in the summer, but that doesn't excuse buying an injury prone midfielder.
[/quote]

Some of that is correct in my opinion Neil. I do think he was shafted with the money on the Keane deal but the error is signing Keane in the first place only not to use him. Then get rid in 6 months at a loss. That is insane. Yes the money was witheld but it was ridiculous decision to sign Keane, not use him in any of his preferred position and then sold him. It's easy now to exonerate Rafa from all blame and wave our fists angrily at the owners but Rafa made a big fuck up and its cost us big time.
 
before I start I think the subbing was the wrong thing to do, I wouldn't have done it and even though I moaned at gerrard's reaction (he's the CAPTAIN) my reaction was exactly the same but with that said;

these things no can can argue with

a) torres was TERRIBLE up to the 60 minute mark, to the point of not even chasing down the ball.

b) liverpool played a LOT better when torres went off. sure, there are a loads of reason for that but it is what it is liverpool's performance picked up after torres left the pitch.

c) torres missed chances against wigan, s'land, manu and an absolute PEACH of a chance v benfica

d) torres was rubbish v villa but one chance, one goal

e) liverpool last chance of silverware hangs in the balance on thursday

f) in the past torres has injuried himself late in games, could we have prevented that by not playing him to death despite fatigued, when you are tired that is when you are more susceptible to injury. its happed before.

I personally wouldn't have subbed torres, you don't take off your best players when you need a result but I have a 'little' sympathy with the decision and it 'almost' paid off. people are calling rafa a coward and shite house but protecting your player despite needing the points takes balls.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082911#msg1082911 date=1270549134]
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39651.msg1082910#msg1082910 date=1270549024]
-You don't take him off if he's having a shit game, because as all top strikers have proved countless fucking times - they can be utterly anonymous and STILL produce the goods in the dying seconds.




[/quote]

so torres is beyond subbing?
[/quote]
Not at all. If we were winning and he was being lazy, moody etc then yeah I would be calling for his withdrawl. If he was injured or could be potentially injured then I would also call for his withdrawl. If it was nothing game and he wasn't playing well I would call for fresh legs. This all goes out the window in a must win game with 25 Min's to go. I'm amazed people can't see this. If N'gog scores yeah the gamble pays off. Can we afford to take gambles like that? Can Rafa afford to take such risks after dropping so many points already this season.

Many are saying Torres was exhausted as if this justifies the decision. I'm sure Gerrard was exhausted in Istanbul, I doubt many we're calling for him to be replaced. Carragher was down with cramp on a few occasions but thats goes out the window in a must win game.

The only other reason to justify the decision is to highlight Torres 'stinking attitude'. Yes he was lazy and moody during the game but could that not have been addressed after the game or spoken about at half time. Surely he should have been left on the field in the hope he gets one chance to win us the points. I have nothing against N'gog coming on, I would have done it too. However, I would have taken off Lucas, Maxi, Yossi or Kuyt and thrown N'gog into the mix with Torres.

I don't see why anyone would want to justify such a bizarre decision. It reminded me of the decision to remove Gerrard in the derby a few season ago. The gamble paid off that time, it didn't this time.
 
I don't know why you're arguing or what your argument is half the time spidey. It doesn't seem to be a case of devils (or cretins advocate), so what's going on. It's all very conflicted, arguing the case for everyones points almost and rambling on in a million different directons.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082940#msg1082940 date=1270551063]
I'll also add over playing barnes, owen and fowler fucked them up.
[/quote]

Could we not make an exception for 25 mins in a one off game we needed win? Also Rafa has stated Torres was not injured. I'm all for protecting a player against injury but this wasn't the case here.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=39651.msg1082941#msg1082941 date=1270551134]
I don't know why you're arguing or what your argument is half the time spidey. It doesn't seem to be a case of devils (or cretins advocate), so what's going on. It's all very conflicted, arguing the case for everyones points almost and rambling on in a million different directons.
[/quote]

I don't really argue for or against rafa I try and figure out WHY he does what he does instead of going 'he's fucking lost the plot!!' I find it a more liberating exercise.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082940#msg1082940 date=1270551063]
I'll also add over playing barnes, owen and fowler fucked them up.
[/quote]

He's only played about 25 games this season!
 
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