Gerrard's face after the substitution

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I hope to fuck you don't end up in some dodgy London bar, you'll get the shit kicked out of you if you can't read body language basics.



- Cunt waves broken bottle at Spider Div

- Spider Div gleefully waves back thinking he's recognized an old mate.

- Cunt introduces broken bottle neck to Spider Div's head.
 
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39651.msg1082554#msg1082554 date=1270488261]
I hope to fuck you don't end up in some dodgy London bar, you'll get the shit kicked out of you if you can't read body language basics.



- Cunt waves broken bottle at Spider Div

- Spider Div gleefully waves back thinking he's recognized an old mate.

- Cunt introduces broken bottle neck to Spider Div's head.


[/quote]

I can tell the difference between bemusement/disappointment and anger.
I also don't need to resort to insults to get my point across.
 
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39651.msg1082554#msg1082554 date=1270488261]
I hope to fuck you don't end up in some dodgy London bar, you'll get the shit kicked out of you if you can't read body language basics.



- Cunt waves broken bottle at Spider Div

- Spider Div gleefully waves back thinking he's recognized an old mate.

- Cunt introduces broken bottle neck to Spider Div's head.


[/quote]

Are you Cunt in this scenario?
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39651.msg1082559#msg1082559 date=1270489541]
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39651.msg1082554#msg1082554 date=1270488261]
I hope to fuck you don't end up in some dodgy London bar, you'll get the shit kicked out of you if you can't read body language basics.



- Cunt waves broken bottle at Spider Div

- Spider Div gleefully waves back thinking he's recognized an old mate.

- Cunt introduces broken bottle neck to Spider Div's head.


[/quote]

Are you Cunt in this scenario?
[/quote]

difficult choice for ro-land as he doesn't want to call himself a cunt but would love to bottle me in the face.
 
HAHAHA.....is calling someone a 'div' an insult now?





oh, and yeh, I am the cunt in the scenario.....


*thuds spider div ferociously over the head until he admits he's a div*
 
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39651.msg1082563#msg1082563 date=1270490387]
HAHAHA.....is calling someone a 'div' an insult now?





oh, and yeh, I am the cunt in the scenario.....


*thuds spider div ferociously over the head until he admits he's a div*
[/quote]

div is a hurtful name *sobs*
 
In my opinion, debating whether Gerrard looks "angry" or "bemused" (more like bewildered, actually) is pretty immaterial because he's fucked off about it either way. Maybe him not throwing his toys out of the pram (as I would have been tempted to do) is him being captain-like.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39651.msg1082267#msg1082267 date=1270419179]
Perhaps Torres would not be so "Exhasted" if he was not playing alone up front all the bleeding time.

[/quote]

Chelsea, United and Arsenal all played with one up front at the weekend, as they do most weekends.
 
I really can't be arsed getting into this substitution debate with a whole heap of people happy to be "proven" right by hypotheticals ("Torres would have scored those chances N'Gog missed!" - FOR THE LOVE OF FUCKING GOD) but it's safe to say I was calling for Torres to be substituted long before he was.

His performance was disgraceful, his attitude stank the absolute fucking house out, and all this clamouring that "he could have buried one in the 89th minute" by way of decrying the substitution is absolute shit, and should never ever excuse the way he fucking arsed around the pitch for 60 minutes. He was fucking stinking, and should have been hooked at half-time.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082645#msg1082645 date=1270509621]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39651.msg1082267#msg1082267 date=1270419179]
Perhaps Torres would not be so "Exhasted" if he was not playing alone up front all the bleeding time.

[/quote]

Chelsea, United and Arsenal all played with one up front at the weekend, as they do most weekends.
[/quote]

They also create more and almost never play with a footballer who only passes the ball 5 yards in the sitting role.
 
Ryan your forgetting a striker's role in the team is to score goals. And he does it no matter how bad his performance is. Should we have subbed him against Sunderland, Man City and Chelsea last year, Villa this year, and whole host of others that I can't remember. It was Rafa's fault he left on the 10 men without a substitution to help the shape and and refresh the team on Thursday which made him feel that sub was necessary when in all actuality not doing it was a much easier way to get to the fourth spot. He is in a way prioritizing Europa fucking cup over the 4th spot.
 
I've been as critical as anyone of Gerrard this season.

He's been a fucking disgrace if you ask me but with regards his reaction to Torres being subbed, i've no complaints.
He just genuinely shocked and puzzled at Rafa's decision, as we all were.

In fact i'm kinda glad he reacted like he did as it at least shows he still does care.
 
Ryan...If Torres deserved to be subbed for sulking, being a twat then what about Gerrard this season?...
Surely he should have been subbed about 15 times for similar types of performances, eh?
 
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=39651.msg1082648#msg1082648 date=1270509898]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082645#msg1082645 date=1270509621]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39651.msg1082267#msg1082267 date=1270419179]
Perhaps Torres would not be so "Exhasted" if he was not playing alone up front all the bleeding time.

[/quote]

Chelsea, United and Arsenal all played with one up front at the weekend, as they do most weekends.
[/quote]

They also create more and almost never play with a footballer who only passes the ball 5 yards in the sitting role.
[/quote]

You mustn't have watched too much of Denilson and Mikel then.
 
[quote author=franklyfrank link=topic=39651.msg1082653#msg1082653 date=1270510585]
Ryan...If Torres deserved to be subbed for sulking, being a twat then what about Gerrard this season?...
Surely he should have been subbed about 15 times for similar types of performances, eh?
[/quote]

The only Gerrard 'effort' that's come close to that non-performance from Torres at the weekend was away to Wigan I felt, and I think I called for his substitution then too.

I'll ask it again - why is his 'performance' being ignored by everyone?
 
Denilson is pretty creative and scores some true belters while Mikel can still pass better than Lucas because unfortunately a school boy can.

Thats besides the fact that Denilson has played 19 games (4 goals) and Mikel 23 games, and thats also besides the fact that they aren't partnered with defensive masterclass consistently and although Masch can pass on his day he's usually better served passing short to a more creative outlet.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082662#msg1082662 date=1270511328]
I'll ask it again - why is his 'performance' being ignored by everyone?
[/quote]

Torres is a player that can play poorly for 89minutes, and then in the last minute, explode into action and win you the game. You know this already. But what you're doing is ignoring this fact by trying to justify Rafa's substitution of him as a warranted substitution because he was playing poorly, which in my opinion, is simply desperate.

We've all seen enough of Torres to know, he would have had a far better chance of scoring a goal if he was on the pitch than N'Gog. It may have been totally different chances that fell his way, but i'd put more money on him scoring from them that's for sure.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39651.msg1082667#msg1082667 date=1270511863]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082662#msg1082662 date=1270511328]
I'll ask it again - why is his 'performance' being ignored by everyone?
[/quote]

Torres is a player that can play poorly for 89minutes, and then last minute, explode into action and win the game. You know this. But you're trying to justify Rafa's substitution of him as a warranted substitution because he was playing poorly, which in my opinion is desperate.

I've seen enough of Torres to know, he would have had a far better chance of scoring a goal if he was on the pitch than N'Gog. It may have been totally different chances that fell his way, but i'd put more money on him scoring from them, that's for sure.
[/quote]

Hahaha, so tell me - why did all the chances fall to N'Gog when he was on the pithc, but none to Torres when he was there for twice as long?
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39651.msg1082667#msg1082667 date=1270511863]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082662#msg1082662 date=1270511328]
I'll ask it again - why is his 'performance' being ignored by everyone?
[/quote]

Torres is a player that can play poorly for 89minutes, and then last minute, explode into action and win the game. You know this. But you're trying to justify Rafa's substitution of him as a warranted substitution because he was playing poorly, which in my opinion is desperate.

I've seen enough of Torres to know, he would have had a far better chance of scoring a goal if he was on the pitch than N'Gog. It may have been totally different chances that fell his way, but i'd put more money on him scoring from them, that's for sure.
[/quote]

I wouldn't argue with that but you saw torres miss chances v wigan, two glorious chances v manu and one glorious chance v benfica so he can miss them its just more likely he woud score one of the chances that fell to ngog.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082670#msg1082670 date=1270512005]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39651.msg1082667#msg1082667 date=1270511863]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082662#msg1082662 date=1270511328]
I'll ask it again - why is his 'performance' being ignored by everyone?
[/quote]

Torres is a player that can play poorly for 89minutes, and then last minute, explode into action and win the game. You know this. But you're trying to justify Rafa's substitution of him as a warranted substitution because he was playing poorly, which in my opinion is desperate.

I've seen enough of Torres to know, he would have had a far better chance of scoring a goal if he was on the pitch than N'Gog. It may have been totally different chances that fell his way, but i'd put more money on him scoring from them, that's for sure.
[/quote]

Hahaha, so tell me - why did all the chances fall to N'Gog when he was on the pithc, but none to Torres when he was there for twice as long?
[/quote]

there are loads of reason for that, ryan
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082670#msg1082670 date=1270512005]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39651.msg1082667#msg1082667 date=1270511863]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082662#msg1082662 date=1270511328]
I'll ask it again - why is his 'performance' being ignored by everyone?
[/quote]

Torres is a player that can play poorly for 89minutes, and then last minute, explode into action and win the game. You know this. But you're trying to justify Rafa's substitution of him as a warranted substitution because he was playing poorly, which in my opinion is desperate.

I've seen enough of Torres to know, he would have had a far better chance of scoring a goal if he was on the pitch than N'Gog. It may have been totally different chances that fell his way, but i'd put more money on him scoring from them, that's for sure.
[/quote]

Hahaha, so tell me - why did all the chances fall to N'Gog when he was on the pithc, but none to Torres when he was there for twice as long?
[/quote]

Simple. Not only were Birmingham tired and stretched, but because, we did what we ALWAYS do under Rafa. Attack in the final 20minutes of a game when we're desperate for a goal. It just so happened that N'Gog was on the pitch in those 20minutes. Maxi had a couple of chances late on, as did Babel.. we created nothing as a team in the first half.. not just Fernando.

You know this already Ryan but you're just trying to defend the indefensible here.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082671#msg1082671 date=1270512033]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39651.msg1082667#msg1082667 date=1270511863]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082662#msg1082662 date=1270511328]
I'll ask it again - why is his 'performance' being ignored by everyone?
[/quote]

Torres is a player that can play poorly for 89minutes, and then last minute, explode into action and win the game. You know this. But you're trying to justify Rafa's substitution of him as a warranted substitution because he was playing poorly, which in my opinion is desperate.

I've seen enough of Torres to know, he would have had a far better chance of scoring a goal if he was on the pitch than N'Gog. It may have been totally different chances that fell his way, but i'd put more money on him scoring from them, that's for sure.
[/quote]

I wouldn't argue with that but you saw torres miss chances v wigan, two glorious chances v manu and one glorious chance v benfica so he can miss them its just more likely he woud score one of the chances that fell to ngog.
[/quote]

Torres misses chances. Glorious ones as you say. He's human.

But he's also capable of the spectacular goals. He could have just as easily banged one in from 25yards.

With N'Gog, it needs to be on a plate for him to score.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39651.msg1082676#msg1082676 date=1270512224]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082670#msg1082670 date=1270512005]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39651.msg1082667#msg1082667 date=1270511863]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082662#msg1082662 date=1270511328]
I'll ask it again - why is his 'performance' being ignored by everyone?
[/quote]

Torres is a player that can play poorly for 89minutes, and then last minute, explode into action and win the game. You know this. But you're trying to justify Rafa's substitution of him as a warranted substitution because he was playing poorly, which in my opinion is desperate.

I've seen enough of Torres to know, he would have had a far better chance of scoring a goal if he was on the pitch than N'Gog. It may have been totally different chances that fell his way, but i'd put more money on him scoring from them, that's for sure.
[/quote]

Hahaha, so tell me - why did all the chances fall to N'Gog when he was on the pithc, but none to Torres when he was there for twice as long?
[/quote]

Simple. Not only were Birmingham tired and stretched, but because, we did what we ALWAYS do under Rafa. Attack in the final 20minutes of a game when we're desperate for a goal. It just so happened that N'Gog was on the pitch in those 20minutes. Maxi had a couple of chances late on, as did Babel.. we created nothing as a team in the first half.. not just Fernando.

You know this already Ryan but you're just trying to defend the indefensible here.
[/quote]

DEFEND THE INDEFENSIBLE.

I'll tell you what fucks me off here Murph. It's people using hypotheticals and "he would have's" to 'prove' their point.

"If Torres was on, he'd have scored one of those chances" - Fucking arse. Pure hypotheitcal.

Here's one for ten - Why didn't any chances fall to him? I'll tell you why.

Because he did fuck all. Absolutely fuck all. He didn't work, didn't hold the ball up, didn'ty show for it, gave up every single time he lost it, and mopped around for 60 minutes. At some point, enough is enough. That sort of bullshit offering cannot be excused by a fucking hypothetical.

N'gog comes on works his arse off and creates or gets into space for a handful of chances. Soemthing Torres couldn't be arsed doing for the previous hour. Fuck. That.

This has got nothing to do with being pro or anit-Rafa, my disgust is aimed purely at the 'effort' the Spanirad put in, and people seemingly now making excuses for him. Do you think Mourinho would have stood for that? Cos he didn't when Joe Cole offered up similar shit on the pitch. He dragged him at half-time at home to Spurs in a match they were winning and destroyed his lack of effort in the post-game press conference.

This has nothing to do with Rafa, and everything to do with a primadonna performance from someone who sould know better.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39651.msg1082677#msg1082677 date=1270512337]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082671#msg1082671 date=1270512033]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39651.msg1082667#msg1082667 date=1270511863]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082662#msg1082662 date=1270511328]
I'll ask it again - why is his 'performance' being ignored by everyone?
[/quote]

Torres is a player that can play poorly for 89minutes, and then last minute, explode into action and win the game. You know this. But you're trying to justify Rafa's substitution of him as a warranted substitution because he was playing poorly, which in my opinion is desperate.

I've seen enough of Torres to know, he would have had a far better chance of scoring a goal if he was on the pitch than N'Gog. It may have been totally different chances that fell his way, but i'd put more money on him scoring from them, that's for sure.
[/quote]

I wouldn't argue with that but you saw torres miss chances v wigan, two glorious chances v manu and one glorious chance v benfica so he can miss them its just more likely he woud score one of the chances that fell to ngog.
[/quote]

Torres misses chances. Glorious ones as you say. He's human.

But he's also capable of the spectacular goals. He could have just as easily banged one in from 25yards.

With N'Gog, it needs to be on a plate for him to score.
[/quote]

the only thing I agree with rafa in regards to the sub is nando was tired, he was patently tired. the burst of sheer excelleration he uses to ghost away from defenders just wasn't there, but I still would have left him on but rafa is closer to the situation and closer to the player who knows if playing on whilst obviously fatigued would have injuried torres, let's face it its happened before.
 
Ryan, the reason you leave Torres on is because he can finish better than any other player we have, not because of a hypothetical.

I don't think its an indefensible sub I think it was the wrong one. But the MOTD did point out that on one of N'gog's missed chances he had a wide open pass to Gerrard who was open just around the penalty spot. Its that kind of play and lack of awareness and quality that makes Gerrard's face go the way it did when we take out Torres and put in N'gog.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082679#msg1082679 date=1270512585]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39651.msg1082676#msg1082676 date=1270512224]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082670#msg1082670 date=1270512005]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39651.msg1082667#msg1082667 date=1270511863]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39651.msg1082662#msg1082662 date=1270511328]
I'll ask it again - why is his 'performance' being ignored by everyone?
[/quote]

Torres is a player that can play poorly for 89minutes, and then last minute, explode into action and win the game. You know this. But you're trying to justify Rafa's substitution of him as a warranted substitution because he was playing poorly, which in my opinion is desperate.

I've seen enough of Torres to know, he would have had a far better chance of scoring a goal if he was on the pitch than N'Gog. It may have been totally different chances that fell his way, but i'd put more money on him scoring from them, that's for sure.
[/quote]

Hahaha, so tell me - why did all the chances fall to N'Gog when he was on the pithc, but none to Torres when he was there for twice as long?
[/quote]

Simple. Not only were Birmingham tired and stretched, but because, we did what we ALWAYS do under Rafa. Attack in the final 20minutes of a game when we're desperate for a goal. It just so happened that N'Gog was on the pitch in those 20minutes. Maxi had a couple of chances late on, as did Babel.. we created nothing as a team in the first half.. not just Fernando.

You know this already Ryan but you're just trying to defend the indefensible here.
[/quote]

DEFEND THE INDEFENSIBLE.

I'll tell you what fucks me off here Murph. It's people using hypotheticals and "he would have's" to 'prove' their point.

"If Torres was on, he'd have scored one of those chances" - Fucking arse. Pure hypotheitcal.

Here's one for ten - Why didn't any chances fall to him? I'll tell you why.

Because he did fuck all. Absolutely fuck all. He didn't work, didn't hold the ball up, didn'ty show for it, gave up every single time he lost it, and mopped around for 60 minutes. At some point, enough is enough. That sort of bullshit offering cannot be excused by a fucking hypothetical.

N'gog comes on works his arse off and creates or gets into space for a handful of chances. Soemthing Torres couldn't be arsed doing for the previous hour. Fuck. That.

This has got nothing to do with being pro or anit-Rafa, my disgust is aimed purely at the 'effort' the Spanirad put in, and people seemingly now making excuses for him. Do you think Mourinho would have stood for that? Cos he didn't when Joe Cole offered up similar shit on the pitch. He dragged him at half-time at home to Spurs in a match they were winning and destroyed his lack of effort in the post-game press conference.

This has nothing to do with Rafa, and everything to do with a primadonna performance from someone who sould know better.
[/quote]

I don't agree with the "would have's" either. It's not as simple as that, clearly.

But I just don't think hooking him off was the right decision given his history of putting sh*te 80minute performances, only to explode and win us the game late on. I've seen it time and again with Torres and whilst I'd agree that something needs to be done about it (look on a previous Nando thread, i've mentioned his whinging and diving before), I just don't thinking yesterday was the game to make an example of his poor performance.

If Rafa had been doing that from the start of the season (and had a better forward to sub Torres for) then I doubt we'd have seen such a poor 1st half display against the Brum. But if we're being honest, most of our attacking players were poor in the first half anyway, so why take off Nando? and why do you single out his poor performance? Why not Kuyt? or Yossi? I don't remember either doing much of note. But to take off our best goalscorer (by a distance) in a favour of a rookie forward was a poor decision in the end.

Whilst I don't rate N'Gog yet, admittedly, he did do well when he came on. He got into the positions to score but just didn't have enough quality to finish the chances that fell his way.
 
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=39651.msg1082684#msg1082684 date=1270513161]
Ryan, the reason you leave Torres on is because he can finish better than any other player we have, not because of a hypothetical.

[/quote]

So then Torres should never ever be subsituted that what you're saying?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39651.msg1082680#msg1082680 date=1270512593]
the only thing I agree with rafa in regards to the sub is nando was tired, he was patently tired. the burst of sheer excelleration he uses to ghost away from defenders just wasn't there, but I still would have left him on but rafa is closer to the situation and closer to the player who knows if playing on whilst obviously fatigued would have injuried torres, let's face it its happened before.
[/quote]

Excelleration? Isn't that something to do with spreadsheets? 😛

Hehe.. I get what you're saying and Rafa does get to see the players on a day to day basis in training. Nando may not have felt he was tired (his reaction), but perhaps his performance suggested otherwise.

The only thing I will say here is that it is quite typical of teams playing in Europe to start off a game tired and have a slow first half. We've seen it with United this year on countless occasions (there's some stat that they've lost most of their games this year straight after a European away match). With us, it's no surprise we started slowly given how much energy we expended against Benfica. But players often do pick up in the 2nd half, right about the time Nando was being taken off.
 
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