I was with you until your last statement...I mean discount Ben Davies...
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- Thread starter King Binny
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I was with you until your last statement...I mean discount Ben Davies...
I dont think Robertson is one of the players we should be looking to sell.
Disagree. Ok so I believe that if we had Mane this season they we qualify for 4th. Some of those crappy draws and loses become wins... Mane to me is definitely still a better player then Gakpo and Nunez, Jota and Fan Favorite Firmino. I think we could have done more to charm him to stay. Maybe we wouldn't have had to pay him 300k a week? But even if we did. Surely getting into the CL and financial benefits that brings negates the wages we would have paid to Mane.
I hope you're right on Nunez. I'm not seeing it myself. I definitely see more Andy Carroll than Lewandowski at the moment. I know Klopp likes this type of player though but I thought Klopp would have tried to replicate the success he had with Mane, Firmino and Salah by trying to sign like for like replacements. It feels like Klopp is going in a different direction football wise. The footballing interplay that Mane, Salah and Firmino I just can't see that same synergy with Nunez and Gakpo in our lineup.
Hopefully we have identified some amazing Moneyball players but I feel our scouting department of no longer as good as it was. It's frustrating because Brighton seem to be noticing great young cheap international talent and developing them.
If we had qualified for CL with Mane in our team I think it might have been worth it. Retrospectively I think Mane starts over Jota, Nunez and Gakpo when you look at the season. It might have been the difference between turning some of those draws into wins.
How many players have we let go on a free?
Every team does it these days - Milner & Bobby we’re always going on frees - as will Hendo - that’s partly out of respect and their age - Barnes, Rush, Gerrard and more all left on frees.
Granted we should have fucked off Kieta a year or 2 ago, but that’s a different story.
I’m not in the crowd that says we cut our losses early - otherwise we’d be fucking off Alisson, Van Dijk, Robbo, Fabs, Salah, Matip, Hendo & Thiago off this summer.
I’d sell Matip & Thiago tomorrow - Fabs next season and let Mo and Hendo run out their contracts and leave on frees and hang on to Allison & Robbo for another season.
For me - Nunez - happy to keep - he’s going to have to work hard and improve if he wants to start - he’s either dislodging Diaz or we’re changing or system to not need a false 9, because no way is he ever offering what Gakpo does - therefore he has a challenge - if he doesn’t show signs of improvement then ge should be fucked off next summer.
I’d go further - one of Diaz, Jota, Nunez or Gakpo even should be sold next summer - whichever one isn’t regularly playing and contributing - and they all have something to prove.
That is because the three signings have not lived up to the mark. Not because we let Mane go. Mane would have demanded somewhere close to Salah (maybe 50-75K lesser) wages and if not this season, sometime in the next few seasons, it will start to harm us. No one was complaining about Fabinho extension when he signed. Very few were complaining about Hendo extension. Now both these extensions will prevent us from completely revamping our midfield till around 2026-2027.
Even given Manes decline, Mane was a highly regarded and wanted man.
Nobody was chasing Henderson even during his peak.
The fact that Bayern were prepared to pay big bucks for a supposed declining player tells me there's a difference in quality between the two players. I think the club should have treated the extensions differently based on quality of the player.
We could have let Henderson leave and it wouldn't have made much difference, but letting Mane go and here we are find ourselves in Europa League.
To me it was obvious. Keep Mane and Salah but sell Firmino. I love Firmino, but again even now, no one is chasing for Firmino signature even though he's practically leaving on a free. It tells you how we should have assessed Mane in comparison to the how we should have assessed Firmino.
However I agree with you that the replacement signings we made since Mane left haven't been able to hit the ground running which has made our judgements look worse.
Cant disagree with that.
I know we should have handled players leaving more optimally. Not let so many folks leave on a free. But it is also hard to criticize them.
We were one of the best club in Europe to play for under an inspiring manager. Unlike in the past, there were not a lot of attractive options to leave us from. We were also punching above our weight. We offered excellent salaries but are not willing to pay Madrid, Barcelona, United, Chelsea salaries for non-elite players. One of the impacts of wages exploding is that clubs across Europe have become in general smarter about giving older places exorbitant wages for "one last contract".
All in all, under Klopp, there is not a lot of incentive for players to push for a move elsewhere until now, whereas for players like Gini, Can, etc - not a lot of incentive for us to offer extraordinary wages as we were confident of replacing them on cheaper wages.
The only two I am annoyed about is Ox and Keita. Ox had a horrible injury record and after being out for a year through injuries in 2018-2019, we offered him a four year contract extension in 2019-2020. Mental decision. We could have left them off for free in the last two years and I am sure some club would have picked up their wages if there was no transfer fee involved. Half of the midfielders in the PL and the Championship would have offered more than these two and would have been an optimal use of their wages.
We shouldn't attribute too much good sense to Bayern for wanting Mane, when they played Choupo-Moting up front all year as a replacement for Lewandowski and then fired their manager when they were in first place, only to see their season spiral away from them.
You could reasonably argue that someone on the well-run scale from Brighton to Chelsea, they were somewhat closer to the latter than the former this year.
Who out of that lot should we have got fees for?
Emre Can
Moreno
Clyne
Ox
Naby
Wini
Divock
Bobby
Sturridge
Lallana
So you're telling me we could not have got money for any of these?
@bluebell
Emre Can - can’t really blame Klopp for this one
Moreno - gahahahaha
Clyne - we probably should have fucked him off sooner - but no-one would pay for him.
Ox - hahahaha
Naby - yep agree this one
Wini - we offered him a contract - are you saying we should have sold him 1-2 years earlier - plus he was in his 30’s
Divock - Lord Divock can do what he wants
Bobby - bollocks - we offered him a contract and I have no issue with him being allowed to leave on a free - it was either that or a rolling one year contract
Sturridge - who would have paid money for Sturridge- don’t be silly.
Lallana - nonsense was anyone paying money for him.
So basically a bunch of aging or injury prone players that we should have sold while they were still useful or extended their contracts well into their 30’s.
See, this is nonsense - there’s a handful of players in that list we could have sold earlier without impact it the team - but mostly we were never getting anything for most of them.
Emre Can - can’t really blame Klopp for this one
Moreno - gahahahaha
Clyne - we probably should have fucked him off sooner - but no-one would pay for him.
Ox - hahahaha
Naby - yep agree this one
Wini - we offered him a contract - are you saying we should have sold him 1-2 years earlier - plus he was in his 30’s
Divock - Lord Divock can do what he wants
Bobby - bollocks - we offered him a contract and I have no issue with him being allowed to leave on a free - it was either that or a rolling one year contract
Sturridge - who would have paid money for Sturridge- don’t be silly.
Lallana - nonsense was anyone paying money for him.
So basically a bunch of aging or injury prone players that we should have sold while they were still useful or extended their contracts well into their 30’s.
See, this is nonsense - there’s a handful of players in that list we could have sold earlier without impact it the team - but mostly we were never getting anything for most of them.
@StevieM I am blaming the club, not just Klopp. Edward takes a fair share as he was the Sporting Director.
When the owners decide the club should be run in a self sustaining manner then you'd expect them to maximise every point of revenue, which means selling players at the right time.
If a player goes on the market he invariably sells. So Moreno, Gini, Can, Ox, Divockand Naby, attempts should have been made to offload them or renew their contracts at the bare minimum 18m before it ends.
Sell to buy model only works when you have players to sell.
I am under the impression Klopp will get around £200m to get the players he wants but if he doesn't then the club needs to look at selling players in order to rebuild.
I am talking of players like Thiago, Gomez, Matip, and even Konate. I
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Well, we're back there now. Time to get a strategy again.
Well, lets wait and see what happens in the window. Hes right in what he's saying, that it's a financial blow; but it's not like we were spending shedloads when we were qualifying for it every year
Yeah. And obviously, it would be fun to win it. Trophy is a trophy. Get another number on the Wall of Winners.
Ali Mak is almost done, £67m is what I've heard. Klopp needs to be clever about the rest of the money... some say its £100m which in most windows would be enough but if the figure is the figure then Klopp and Smackhead have to be wise to get the 4 players we need. If they only get two, I'll be bitter
I think he'll be backed, but they might offset it against spending in next summers window. Which wil put us back at square 1 if we don't address the CB issues this summer.
I'm hoping a few sales, combined with investment, will give us enough to bring in 4 first team ready players.
So, you would have sold Gini when… half way through the league winning season, in the middle of a global pandemic???
Catch yourself on.
Pretty much everyone was offered a new deal- but choose , for various reasons not to take it.
Those that weren’t offered a new deal could barely walk.
I’m all for selling players when the time is right, but these players that hit 30 aren’t going to bring in much money - they’re on big wages and very few teams want to take them on.
Sometimes it’s better to get another year out of them and let them go on a free.
Thiago’s a prime example - I’d be ok selling him if Barca want to take him back, but equally I’d except keeping him for one more year while, say, Mac Allistar beds in - we’d be lucky to get £10m and it’s really only Barca that would likely take him.
The players we need to sell are the 21-26 year olds that we can get a decent fee for.
We’ll get next to fuck all for the likes of Matip, Hendo, Thiago, etc. We might get money for Kelleher, Gomez, Robbo, Tsimikas or Fabs - but we’d have to buy replacements, so, bar Kelleher, there’s an argument for not selling unless there’s a kid coming through who could replace them.
If I was Sporting Director, I would always try to make sure I can sell an asset unless he is just too old. So if a players has 2 years left on his contract, if the manager wants him, I'd make the best offer we can make, if he refuses, I would put him on the transfer list, and sell him.
Letting players walk out the door for free when our budget is already tight means we struggle.
You say when you sell a player you have to get a replacement. Agree, it's the same when you let a player walk for free.
Right now i am looking at Konate and the Croatian who plays for RB Leipzig, I know which one I'd rather have.
The difference is - the player can still contribute in those last 2 years and provide more than a replacement might.
Also, they have invaluable experience and as they get older you can phase them out.
Sometimes other things are more important than “just” cash.
The most striking example I can give you is Gini - he was signed on a 5 year contract - so you would have either sold him at the end of his third year our offered a bumper new contract.
So, on the back of his contribution to winning the CL, at the age of 29 you would have either tied him to the club until he was at least 33 (only a 2 year extension) - I can tell you now - he would have asked for a fucking fortune.
Or… you would have sold one of our most consistent midfielders and quite possibly scuppered our league winning season - he played 37 league games in the Championship winning team.
There’s you sliding doors moment - A league title, but Gini still here leeching a huge wage, and what is now PSG’s problem is ours, or no League Title but £50m in the bank in 2019 just as a global pandemic was about to strike that we would have used to cover losses or what happened - a league title, he goes on a free and you concede that it was probably the right thing after all and we move on from you bleeding about how you’d sell every one with 2 years on their contract.
I’d agree with you on younger players - but there is merit keeping older players a little longer, giving them the opportunity to fleece a final pay day out of someone else.
Bobby & Milner are other examples, their last 2 years have arguably been worth more to us than whatever pitiful amount we would have got for them.
I agree that year 3 of a 5 year contract is when you should start taking a position on someone - but not that it’s as simple as sell or offer a new contract.
It’s hard not to deny FSG fucked up on the women’s game after supporting it well from the off initially. They then under invested, watched them get relegated while all our big rivals went in the opposite direction while made them play on a disgrace of a Prenton Park pitch a few years ago.
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