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Closes door.

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[quote author=Y1 link=topic=36858.msg976980#msg976980 date=1257142193]
What has happened here???? ??? 🙁

Oncy closes the door and outed the traitors (ahem me included) amongst us and now reopen another barn door shutting out those who were faint hearted?

No chance we will win the PL. If we do, I shall eat jellied eels, pie and mash for one month! There...
[/quote]

game on..
 
[quote author=madmax link=topic=36858.msg976988#msg976988 date=1257145456]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=36858.msg976980#msg976980 date=1257142193]
What has happened here???? ??? 🙁

Oncy closes the door and outed the traitors (ahem me included) amongst us and now reopen another barn door shutting out those who were faint hearted?

No chance we will win the PL. If we do, I shall eat jellied eels, pie and mash for one month! There...
[/quote]

game on..
[/quote]

you are on... except someone may have to send me those vile stuff, and i gladly swallow them if we win. No chance either way! 😉
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=36858.msg976965#msg976965 date=1257139048]
We're going around in circles.

I think Rafa has failed his primary target; which was no. 19..He deserved as much time as Houiller got which was 5 years; he got that and failed..has his time been a complete failure though?..no, it hasnt..he's brought 2 important trophies to us (even if he now thinks trophies aren't important)..he's also revamped the youth set-up and we're seeing more and more players come through, which will prove financially priceless in the years to come...and despite the bullshit football we're seeing now, this team is still better than Houillier's.

Even if he got sacked tomorrow he's still have my thanks for these things.

Now, does he deserve to go?

I think so; but I also think it would be suicidal if that happened..the ridiculously long contract extension given indicates that the pay-off would be over 16 million..that's money we don't have, and if it did, should be better used elsewhere...more importantly, Rafa is a good manager, and getting in any managers of even the same calibre would prove to be very difficult and very expensive as the new man would want greater financial assurances over transfers and the right to bring in his own people.

We cannot afford this.

Financially, Rafa must stay as long as we're stuck with Hicks and Gillette; and Rafa has to prove he can still extract quality from players and bring in the right ones....he's proven he can do it, even if his flops are sepctacular.

In a nutshell, I think we cant afford to keep him and we cant afford to sack him..time will tell which proves more expensive.
[/quote]

A whiff of reality, thank you Avvy.

regards
 
For the first time I can remember, I was actually embarassed to be a Liverpool fan this weekend. I just sat there watching the Fulham shaking my head and looking at it through my fingers. Yes Benitez has to shoulder some of the blam. Absolutely he does. He made some baffling decisions on Saturday. But so do the players. There's no excuse for that kind of performance on Saturday. Carra for one has been riding his luck of late and got caught out. Kuyt was anonymous for the second game on the run. It goes beyond the players and manager as well. With the two Amercians holding the purse strings we're always going to be fundamentally fucked. I worry about where we go next - there's no light at the end of a tunnel that's growing longer each week.
 
Ngog
Torres
Aquilani
Aurellio
Agger
Gerrard
Skrtel
Riera

All injured or struggling...

What the fuck do people expect?? Getting on the managers back is uncalled for and unhelpful IMO.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36858.msg977066#msg977066 date=1257154295]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=36858.msg976965#msg976965 date=1257139048]
We're going around in circles.

I think Rafa has failed his primary target; which was no. 19..He deserved as much time as Houiller got which was 5 years; he got that and failed..has his time been a complete failure though?..no, it hasnt..he's brought 2 important trophies to us (even if he now thinks trophies aren't important)..he's also revamped the youth set-up and we're seeing more and more players come through, which will prove financially priceless in the years to come...and despite the bullshit football we're seeing now, this team is still better than Houillier's.

Even if he got sacked tomorrow he's still have my thanks for these things.

Now, does he deserve to go?

I think so; but I also think it would be suicidal if that happened..the ridiculously long contract extension given indicates that the pay-off would be over 16 million..that's money we don't have, and if it did, should be better used elsewhere...more importantly, Rafa is a good manager, and getting in any managers of even the same calibre would prove to be very difficult and very expensive as the new man would want greater financial assurances over transfers and the right to bring in his own people.

We cannot afford this.

Financially, Rafa must stay as long as we're stuck with Hicks and Gillette; and Rafa has to prove he can still extract quality from players and bring in the right ones....he's proven he can do it, even if his flops are sepctacular.

In a nutshell, I think we cant afford to keep him and we cant afford to sack him..time will tell which proves more expensive.
[/quote]

A whiff of reality, thank you Avvy.

regards
[/quote]

Shove your "reality"! 😉
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36858.msg977201#msg977201 date=1257170299]
*enters thread*


*opens door*


*leaves thread*
[/quote]Close the door
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36858.msg977211#msg977211 date=1257171759]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36858.msg977201#msg977201 date=1257170299]
*enters thread*


*opens door*


*leaves thread*
[/quote]Close the door
[/quote]

Good job gene!
 
[quote author=vantage link=topic=36858.msg977251#msg977251 date=1257176061]
WTF is wrong with Agger now?
[/quote]
Not that much it seems.

He's travelling with the squad to Lyon and by the sound of it he's going to be fit to play. (It's his back that kept him out of the weekends game, and that's the only slight concern considering the ammount of time they've tried to fix that problem)

Gerrard, Riera, Aurelio and Skrtl are the only ones who are definitely out.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36858.msg977066#msg977066 date=1257154295]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=36858.msg976965#msg976965 date=1257139048]

In a nutshell, I think we cant afford to keep him and we cant afford to sack him..time will tell which proves more expensive.
[/quote]

A whiff of reality, thank you Avvy.

regards
[/quote]

Like our resident senior statesman I think that was a very good post Avvy. I've only quoted the last part because I think it sums up the catch 22 we find ourselves in.

It's a strange situation though because there are genuine arguments both ways. GH went through a crippling injury crisis for his last two years. Like Rafa he pointed to it as well but it didn't save Houllier; should it save Rafa?

We complained bitterly during 02/03 that we had a team which could beat anyone and would point to victories over the mancs, Arsenal and Barca to support the point but at the same time we would drop points to Palace, Southampton and others. We got sick of it with Houllier and now the same is true with Rafa.

The difference here is that it will not surprise me in the slightest if we now go on a very lengthy run of wins; we sweep all before us in the league and swamp every team in the CL group to surge into the next stage. In February we could start talking about the title challenge being back on and we may fall short by only 6 or 7 points. Everyone will think we've ironed out the wrinkles and the next season is 19 for sure - this crisis will be difficult to remember and be pointed to by the RCDNW brigade with smirks of how reactionary we all were.

Is that worth keeping Rafa for again; the hope and suggestion that maybe he finally - yet again ad-infinitum - has learned the lesson.

It's a painful way of doing it - sending your hopes through the roof, stamping on them brutally, building them up with increasing excitement only to fall just short but with the promise of so much more to come.

The extremes of both views polarise everyone IMO. Rafa is like every other manager; he's got his strengths and weaknesses and the reality is that he's got more strengths than most and less weaknesses too. But just because he's a very good manager doesn't mean he's the one to take us to the promised land.


For me Rafa has not essentially changed from his first season. I said at the time that he has an uncanny ability to prepare a team for a specific match and come out on top. If my life depended on a single result I think I'd choose Rafa ahead of any other manager in world football to take care of that game. He is perfectly suited to a situation where there are several key games to be negotiated each season. I said it in that first season - and I wasn't alone - that he was so focused on control that we stopped ourselves from losing rather than winning - the perfect approach when you're in a one off game, a cup match or in a league where there are only a few teams who can realistically beat you. The premier league is very different and I always remember Ferguson pointing it out after his team got beaten by Stoke a number of seasons ago; he declared there was no other league in the world that he had seen where one of the bottom clubs would take it to the top club for the full 90 minutes.

We're asking a lot that the quality which makes Rafa one of the outstanding managers in world football is the quality he has to let go of - to some extent - if he's to win the league in England. I personally don't think he can do it but, conversely, I think he'll get us closer than any other available manager each year and be successful in the cup games.

It leads me back to Avvy's final point; given what I am confident Rafa will deliver consistently we can't afford to say goodbye to him now. I expect that such a suggestion in a few months will seem ludicrous in the extreme but we'll be back considering it again next season - I guarantee it.
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=36858.msg978095#msg978095 date=1257286134]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36858.msg977066#msg977066 date=1257154295]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=36858.msg976965#msg976965 date=1257139048]

In a nutshell, I think we cant afford to keep him and we cant afford to sack him..time will tell which proves more expensive.
[/quote]

A whiff of reality, thank you Avvy.

regards
[/quote]

Like our resident senior statesman I think that was a very good post Avvy. I've only quoted the last part because I think it sums up the catch 22 we find ourselves in.

It's a strange situation though because there are genuine arguments both ways. GH went through a crippling injury crisis for his last two years. Like Rafa he pointed to it as well but it didn't save Houllier; should it save Rafa?

We complained bitterly during 02/03 that we had a team which could beat anyone and would point to victories over the mancs, Arsenal and Barca to support the point but at the same time we would drop points to Palace, Southampton and others. We got sick of it with Houllier and now the same is true with Rafa.

The difference here is that it will not surprise me in the slightest if we now go on a very lengthy run of wins; we sweep all before us in the league and swamp every team in the CL group to surge into the next stage. In February we could start talking about the title challenge being back on and we may fall short by only 6 or 7 points. Everyone will think we've ironed out the wrinkles and the next season is 19 for sure - this crisis will be difficult to remember and be pointed to by the RCDNW brigade with smirks of how reactionary we all were.
Is that worth keeping Rafa for again; the hope and suggestion that maybe he finally - yet again ad-infinitum - has learned the lesson.

It's a painful way of doing it - sending your hopes through the roof, stamping on them brutally, building them up with increasing excitement only to fall just short but with the promise of so much more to come.

The extremes of both views polarise everyone IMO. Rafa is like every other manager; he's got his strengths and weaknesses and the reality is that he's got more strengths than most and less weaknesses too. But just because he's a very good manager doesn't mean he's the one to take us to the promised land.


For me Rafa has not essentially changed from his first season. I said at the time that he has an uncanny ability to prepare a team for a specific match and come out on top. If my life depended on a single result I think I'd choose Rafa ahead of any other manager in world football to take care of that game. He is perfectly suited to a situation where there are several key games to be negotiated each season. I said it in that first season - and I wasn't alone - that he was so focused on control that we stopped ourselves from losing rather than winning - the perfect approach when you're in a one off game, a cup match or in a league where there are only a few teams who can realistically beat you. The premier league is very different and I always remember Ferguson pointing it out after his team got beaten by Stoke a number of seasons ago; he declared there was no other league in the world that he had seen where one of the bottom clubs would take it to the top club for the full 90 minutes.

We're asking a lot that the quality which makes Rafa one of the outstanding managers in world football is the quality he has to let go of - to some extent - if he's to win the league in England. I personally don't think he can do it but, conversely, I think he'll get us closer than any other available manager each year and be successful in the cup games.

It leads me back to Avvy's final point; given what I am confident Rafa will deliver consistently we can't afford to say goodbye to him now. I expect that such a suggestion in a few months will seem ludicrous in the extreme but we'll be back considering it again next season - I guarantee it.
[/quote]

Excellant post and the above bold is why exactly I lost faith in Rafa last season before a ball was kicked.

We probably will go on a run now but ultimately the damage is done and we will not win the league this year. That is the bottom line.
 
I can't believe nobody's advocated putting Yossi in the hole when Gerrard's been injured.

It seems perfectly obvious to me at least.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36858.msg978106#msg978106 date=1257286918]
I can't believe nobody's advocated putting Yossi in the hole when Gerrard's been injured.

It seems perfectly obvious to me at least.
[/quote]

[size=6pt]*Hopes he isn't about to be wooshed*[/size]


Errrr hello, there's at least 10 people who have said it more than once.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=36858.msg978157#msg978157 date=1257291369]
Avmenon is a bit of an annoying right-on tit, so I find it hard to listen to anything he says

Soz, like
[/quote]

If Avmenon grates, then you're easily annoyed Bren. He's a fine member of this site.
 
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=36858.msg979469#msg979469 date=1257376862]
Fine, i'm the fucking janitor.

*whistles, and mops up the shite*

Who's in?
[/quote]

I still want in!!! Let me in!!!
 
[quote author=Scotino link=topic=36858.msg979866#msg979866 date=1257419922]
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=36858.msg979469#msg979469 date=1257376862]
Fine, i'm the fucking janitor.

*whistles, and mops up the shite*

Who's in?
[/quote]

I still want in!!! Let me in!!!
[/quote]

Sort your avy situation out.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=36858.msg978157#msg978157 date=1257291369]
Avmenon is a bit of an annoying right-on tit, so I find it hard to listen to anything he says

Soz, like
[/quote]

Don't make me start a poll.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36858.msg977201#msg977201 date=1257170299]
*enters thread*


*opens door*


*leaves thread*
[/quote]

What's the significance of the door if you can enter the thread without opening it? Is there a reception area of something?
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=36858.msg980893#msg980893 date=1257503968]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=36858.msg977201#msg977201 date=1257170299]
*enters thread*


*opens door*


*leaves thread*
[/quote]

What's the significance of the door if you can enter the thread without opening it? Is there a reception area of something?
[/quote]
This is a very rare case of a door in a thread. Not outside of it.



*I entered through the window btw.... HA!... FOOOLS*
 
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