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Poll Carlo or Klopp?

Prefix for Poll Threads

Who would your choice be?

  • Ancelloti

    Votes: 19 32.8%
  • Klopp

    Votes: 37 63.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 2 3.4%

  • Total voters
    58
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I didn't realize this before, but Ancelotti has only won the league three times in his managerial career spanning 1995-2015: once with Milan, once with Chelsea and once with PSG. The only two major teams he failed to win the league with were Juventus and Real Madrid.

Smashing record in Europe though.

I was going to come in and post this. 3 league titles in a 20 year old managerial career. Seems a bit odd - I thought he'd won more. That's on par with Van Gaal (who has 3, not counting his Dutch ones) and Wenger (3), but well below Capello (7), Mourinho (6) and Guardiola (5). Klopp has 2 in a much smaller body of work. Rafa, Rijkaard and Pellegrini are also on 2.

Phenomenal record in Europe though as you say - 3 CL wins.

I think the major selling point of Ancelotti is his tactical flexibility - he's renowned for his ability to come in and suit his tactics according to his squad. Here's a great article from the Guardian on his tactical development as a manager.

Perhaps Carlo Ancelotti's greatest gift as a coach is his affability. He desperately wants to succeed but he recognises there are things in life other than football – such as food, even if he is rather slimmer now than he once was. His years at Milan under Silvio Berlusconi and at Chelsea under Roman Abramovich passed without ructions with owners noted for interfering. He even managed to cool a developing (on one side at least) feud with José Mourinho by suggesting they simply pack it in.

After the sulphurous reign of Mourinho, his breezy pleasantness will be a cleansing blast at the Bernabéu. Real Madrid can be a strange place politically but if there is any top manager equipped to handle the internal pressures, it is Ancelotti, a man seemingly able to face down most situations with a raise of his famous eyebrow (according to the journalist Sheridan Bird, the effect is the result of limited movement caused by an elbow in the face from Marco Tardelli).

His easygoing nature extends to tactics. Ancelotti may be inclined to the 4-3-2-1 on which he wrote his coaching dissertation at Coverciano but he will change according to circumstance – a lesson he learned at Parma, his first job inmanagement. Then, he admits, he was too wedded to the 4-4-2 he had learned under Arrigo Sacchi at Milan. That he had learned it, even, said much for his character and his willingness to learn. Ancelotti arrived from Roma aged 28 and took time to adapt.

"He struggled at first," Sacchi said. "Berlusconi said we had an orchestra director who couldn't read sheet music. I told him I would teach him to sing in tune with our orchestra. Every day, I would make him come an hour before training with some kids from the youth team and we would go through everything. Eventually he sang in perfect tune."

At Parma, Ancelotti insisted on playing that way, even though that meant Gianfranco Zola playing on the left wing until he decided to move to Chelsea. It also meant he missed out on the chance to sign Roberto Baggio, who was keen to leave Milan, but wanted to play behind the front two rather than compete with Hernan Crespo and Enrico Chiesa for one of the two striking berths and so joined Bologna instead.

Now, Ancellotti insists, he would be more flexible, would find a way to accommodate a talent like Baggio's. "I lost a great opportunity to improve the team with the ability of Baggio," he said. "But that was a lack of experience. I had been a coach just two years. I didn't have the knowledge to know I could change things. And maybe I was a little bit scared to change because it was the start of my career."

He proved that in his second coaching job, at Juventus, where he switched to a back three, playing 3-4-1-2 to accommodate Zinedine Zidane behind a front two.

At Milan, it was fairly obvious Ancelotti wanted to play a 4-3-2-1 but when the order came from Berlusconi to use two central strikers, he demurred and ended up playing 4-3-1-2 slightly more than twice as often in Serie A as he did his preferred style.

At Chelsea, he tried to operate with a diamond in midfield but, realising that Frank Lampard is better with the ball in front of him than playing with his back to goal, soon adapted, using Deco or Joe Cole in the role before switching back to a shape that varied between 4-3-2-1 and 4-3-3.

In Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Ancelotti found the idea front man for his 4-3-2-1 at Paris Saint-Germain, with Ezequiel Lavezzi, Jérémy Ménez, Nenê and Javier Pastore playing off him. Even then, he was prepared to change to 4-4-2 when the occasion demanded it.

It is hard to imagine Ancelotti changing much in his first weeks at Madrid – although much, of course, depends on who they sign. It's certainly possible to imagine a 4-3-2-1 with Karim Benzema at the peak, with Cristiano Ronaldo and Mesut Ozil tucked behind in what would effectively be free roles, and a three of Xabi Alonso, Sami Khedira and Luka Modric providing the platform. Or perhaps Angel di María could be used a little deeper than previously – as Pastore was often used at PSG – as a creative player who starts deep and then advances.
More likely, especially with Isco set to join and another forward likely, is that the 4-2-3-1 will remain. It's a system that allows the use of four creative players, plus at least one attacking full-back and a player who can advance from deep and so fits a squad who are both heavy on attacking players, the inclinations of the president Florentino Pérez and the way Madrid need to play in a league in which they are expected to win the vast majority of their games.

The one problem is that Ancelotti has used a 4-2-3-1 in just 3% of the league games in which he has been coach since taking over at Juventus in 1999. For a manager so undogmatic it probably isn't an issue but it does seem he has been appointed more for his personality than because his natural tactical philosophy is a fit with the players in the squad.

Think that's a major plus in a manager - someone who'll come in and adapt to what he's given straight away, rather than try to impose his own fixed style on the team.

Having said that, since his Juventus days, Ancelotti's only been at clubs who've been willing to bankroll their way to trophies. Someone said in the other thread that he built that Milan side on his own - well, they spent gargantuan sums on the top players of the time - 42 million on Rui Costa, 37 million on Inzaghi, 30 million on Nesta, 25 million on Shevchenko, 22 million on Seedorf, 18 mill on Pirlo, 10.5 millon on Stam, 8.5 million on Kaka. Massive sums in those days.

Chelsea, PSG and Real of course also gave him a galaxy of world stars to work with. Point being that it's much easier being tactically flexible with the Ronaldos and the Kakas than with the likes of Benteke and Ings.

So yes, despite his fairly impressive CV, I do have some reservations. The biggest one being will he even be terribly invested in a project like Liverpool? The last 15 years show that he's cherry-picked the best jobs in the market. The Liverpool job will be something he hasn't done since his Parma days.

My gut says that he'd get us back into the top 4, and get us playing respectably in Europe as well. But will he be able to deliver a title in 4-5 years given that City, Chelsea and United will still outspend us considerably? I have my doubts.

Will Klopp? I'll let people like @rurikbird answer, who're more familiar with his body of work.
 
I want a manager that speaks honestly (to an extent), that feels the emotion of the game the way a supporter would.
I'm tired of seeing a man who thinks he's great by constantly quoting from psychology books he's read.
 
I don't think either would come here. Ancelotti certainly wouldn't. Anyone other than those two will be a much of a muchness in my opinion. Meh.
 
@dmishra I think we need to forget about the title for the moment. The manager that comes in and wins us a title in our current set up is going to be lottery win style lucky and / or a generational talent. In short, it's very unlikely to happen.

We need to re establish ourselves as a top team. That's proving to be a hard enough goal as it is.
 
We need to re establish ourselves as a top team. That's proving to be a hard enough goal as it is.

Ditto
2C4841FD00000578-3233128-image-a-38_1442182312419.jpg
 
I'd probably pick Klopp but like most on here know absolutely nothing about him bar the obvious. i.e he's won some trophies, people seem to like him, he's a bit of a character and Dortmund played excellent football for a while. That is enough to get his name down on the sheet but I haven't seen anyone give us a detailed post as to why they want him or why Klopp is the right man for the job. It's easy post his name and move on. He isn't Brendan Rodger for a start. I was always willing to 'trade up' if Klopp was available but I'd love if someone delved into it further for us. Perhaps @rurikbird could break it down and inform us whether Klopp is in fact the right man for us.

I'm sure Klopp is a breath of fresh air when you are winning. We can all picture the animated manager on the sidelines of his former club donned in his Dortmund costume. Don't forget the monster truck hat and smug grin to the reporters. We will lap this shit up right away and continue to fawn over it as long as we are getting results. Rodgers' himself endeared himself to the fans, he said the right things about the history of the club, he brought back the red nets, he adopted a Shankly esque celebration, hell he even got his own song from the Kop.

Klopp like all managers will have to be careful. Their traits and mannerisms will become excruciating when/if the results go sour. Now that is me just talking about him as a man. That is what we see on the outside. That is why I'm hoping someone can analyse his formations and tactics for us. Another general consensus is that Klopp can unearth quality players for peanuts. Kagawa, Lewandoski, etc. However he will be operating under a different budget here. Will this mean he will be in the market for more expensive players and we'll miss out on his ability to pick up relatively unknown players? Also, what is he like to build a defense? He claims to play 'heavy metal' football. Will this suit the premier league?

I'm not being negative on Klopp here btw, apologies if it reads that way. He has won trophies and is semi available. I wanted Klopp in the summer. I'm just hoping he's the right man for us because I've actually got no clue to be honest. I doubt many on here do bar the obvious superficial reasons and his supposed affinity to work with a club like ours.
 
Like most people I wouldn't mind Klopp: he's a fascinating character. But I think it would be time for a wise old head to come in. Ancelotti is the right man, short-term, to restore a bit of gravitas to the club. The likes of Van Gaal and Mourinho brush Rodgers away almost contemptuously with one or two simple but shrewd tactical changes. That's painful to watch. The top managers crave clarity, not complexity. Ancelotti would come in and get players playing in position, give them as little as possible to think about and get them playing with a clear purpose. Then he'd build on that.
 
Like most people I wouldn't mind Klopp: he's a fascinating character. But I think it would be time for a wise old head to come in. Ancelotti is the right man, short-term, to restore a bit of gravitas to the club. The likes of Van Gaal and Mourinho brush Rodgers away almost contemptuously with one or two simple but shrewd tactical changes. That's painful to watch. The top managers crave clarity, not complexity. Ancelotti would come in and get players playing in position, give them as little as possible to think about and get them playing with a clear purpose. Then he'd build on that.

I totally agree that Ancelotti would be a wiser short term move to give us some immediate respect. Klopp might just add to the current cartoon image of the club.

I've bolded the final part of your post because it reminded me of one I once made about Hodgson. Rafa was playing players out of position and complicating matters towards the end of his tenure. I was looking for positives when Roy arrived and I convinced myself that he would come in and do the simple things, just like you alluded to above. Now, i'm not comparing Roy to Carlo but on a side note your post made me wince thinking back at my own naivety with regards to Hodgson at the time.
 
I agree with a lot of points in favour of Ancelotti.

It's just this picture that's really putting me off him.

800px-Ancellotidouble.jpg
 
Ha, Rafa went to Chelsea too and won a trophy with him and many would take him back.
 
It should be an easy sell, most of our managers go onto be more successful in bigger jobs when we sack them for being shite.
 
I was going to come in and post this. 3 league titles in a 20 year old managerial career. Seems a bit odd - I thought he'd won more. That's on par with Van Gaal (who has 3, not counting his Dutch ones) and Wenger (3), but well below Capello (7), Mourinho (6) and Guardiola (5). Klopp has 2 in a much smaller body of work. Rafa, Rijkaard and Pellegrini are also on 2.

Phenomenal record in Europe though as you say - 3 CL wins.

I think the major selling point of Ancelotti is his tactical flexibility - he's renowned for his ability to come in and suit his tactics according to his squad. Here's a great article from the Guardian on his tactical development as a manager.



Think that's a major plus in a manager - someone who'll come in and adapt to what he's given straight away, rather than try to impose his own fixed style on the team.

Having said that, since his Juventus days, Ancelotti's only been at clubs who've been willing to bankroll their way to trophies. Someone said in the other thread that he built that Milan side on his own - well, they spent gargantuan sums on the top players of the time - 42 million on Rui Costa, 37 million on Inzaghi, 30 million on Nesta, 25 million on Shevchenko, 22 million on Seedorf, 18 mill on Pirlo, 10.5 millon on Stam, 8.5 million on Kaka. Massive sums in those days.

Chelsea, PSG and Real of course also gave him a galaxy of world stars to work with. Point being that it's much easier being tactically flexible with the Ronaldos and the Kakas than with the likes of Benteke and Ings.

So yes, despite his fairly impressive CV, I do have some reservations. The biggest one being will he even be terribly invested in a project like Liverpool? The last 15 years show that he's cherry-picked the best jobs in the market. The Liverpool job will be something he hasn't done since his Parma days.

My gut says that he'd get us back into the top 4, and get us playing respectably in Europe as well. But will he be able to deliver a title in 4-5 years given that City, Chelsea and United will still outspend us considerably? I have my doubts.

Will Klopp? I'll let people like @rurikbird answer, who're more familiar with his body of work.


Good post dmish, I missed this first time around. I noticed you also calling out rurik to help us examine this properly. Ha. I called upon him to analyses Klopp for us.
 
It should be an easy sell, most of our managers go onto be more successful in bigger jobs when we sack them for being shite.

Bill Shankly
Bob Paisley
Joe Fagan
Kenny Dalglish
Graeme Souness
Roy Evans
Gérard Houllier
Rafael Benítez
Roy Hodgson


Hmmmmm. Not sure about that one.
 
I'd be OK with either but my no.1 choice would absolutely be Ancelotti. We need experience in the role (FSG PLEASE NOTE, though I'm not convinced they will) and, while Klopp has a good deal of experience, he's chalked up rather less than Ancelotti. He'd also be coming off the back of his worst season in a decade and, for all his ability (he'll defo do someone a good job again one day), I don't see him settling the players and indeed the whole club down the way Ancelotti would.
 
I'd be OK with either but my no.1 choice would absolutely be Ancelotti. We need experience in the role (FSG PLEASE NOTE, though I'm not convinced they will) and, while Klopp has a good deal of experience, he's chalked up rather less than Ancelotti. He'd also be coming off the back of his worst season in a decade and, for all his ability (he'll defo do someone a good job again one day), I don't see him settling the players and indeed the whole club down the way Ancelotti would.
Ancelotti would be the sensible and probably wisest choice. I don't know though. Playing it safe seems so dull. Why not take a punt on a young vibrant manager. Give him a decent DoF and watch him drag LFC to the topper most of the popper most. If it all fails well...... It's better to burn out than to fade away right?
 
Klopp has more experience selling his best players every year.
 
Ancelotti would be the sensible and probably wisest choice. I don't know though. Playing it safe seems so dull. Why not take a punt on a young vibrant manager. Give him a decent DoF and watch him drag LFC to the topper most of the popper most. If it all fails well...... It's better to burn out than to fade away right?

Trouble with that (apart from taking advice on pretty much anything from Kurt Cobain 😉) is that we've been there, done the vibrant young manager bit and are now counting the cost. Besides, if Rodgers wouldn't work under a DOF you can bet your bottom dollar Klopp won't either.
 
Trouble with that (apart from taking advice on pretty much anything from Kurt Cobain 😉) is that we've been there, done the vibrant young manager bit and are now counting the cost. Besides, if Rodgers wouldn't work under a DOF you can bet your bottom dollar Klopp won't either.
I was going more for Neil Young but I get your point 😉
 
Trouble with that (apart from taking advice on pretty much anything from Kurt Cobain 😉) is that we've been there, done the vibrant young manager bit and are now counting the cost. Besides, if Rodgers wouldn't work under a DOF you can bet your bottom dollar Klopp won't either.
Klopp's worked under a DOF all his career.
He's also won league titles and got to a European Cup final.
He's a fair bit more vibrant than a manager without a trophy throughout his career.
 
...but, for all his past success, would be coming off a season even worse than our last one. Fair point about the DOF connection thus far, but there were persistent reports that he wanted control over transfers when FSG put feelers out earlier this year. My statement above was based on that, and on the way it suggests that he would now want full control.
 
We should go for Jose, I hate him but he's had his eye on this or the United job for ages. If we're talking about a quick fix, he doesn't stay anywhere for long. Klopp raises too many question marks, Carlo is a good shout.
 
Ancelotti would be the sensible and probably wisest choice. I don't know though. Playing it safe seems so dull. Why not take a punt on a young vibrant manager. Give him a decent DoF and watch him drag LFC to the topper most of the popper most. If it all fails well...... It's better to burn out than to fade away right?

You need to take a vacation, mate!
 
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