Can we find the Lavia?

[Modo]

http://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/threads/cutting-the-rope.165798/#post-1996325

That's a post I wrote in Dec 2020.

The problem we're currently facing is that our most prominent players are all basically the same age.

I saw it coming. The panic we had this summer selling both Hendo and Fabs, losing Firmino for free, selling Mane for peanuts last summer.

Yeah I guess it isn't that bad anymore with Jota signing in the summer. He might be part of the next front three.
In midfield we have a 19 year old in Jones. Keita hasn't been great, Ox will surely be sold and Wijnaldum won't stick around after summer.
I think a player around 22-24 years old would help ease the transition there.
Could do with another wing forward in the same age bracket, Elliott being a little too young.
A backup to Firmino should be considered as well. Divock will be sold.

Ok, the situation isn't critical yet.

It's scary that we didn't do anything about it until 3 years later.

 

[bluebell]

Hindsight is 20/20 adn all that, but after winning the CL Origi was valued at around £30 mill. Why didn't we sell?

Why didn't we sell Ox?
Why didn't we sell Keita?

I mean we're not talking about 20 year old players with a lot of promise. We bought Ox and Keita to make a difference. Spent almost £100 mill on both.
I can't say for certain that FSG isn't involved somehow, but more often than not, the money we bring in through transfers is often used to bring in new players.

Klopp doesn't sell players that don't want to go.. The salaries paid out is ridiculous. 2nd highest in the PL and was the oldest team in PL too.
They need to appoint an SD who has a plan who will look to sell players when they reach the other side of the hill.

 

[Modo]

Not sure he was valued at 30m then, didn’y he sign a contract extension after CL win? At that point had he run his contract down or did he a year left? I can’t rem but not sure selling Origi fot 10m would have made much difference.

Teams would have easily paid £30 mill for Origi after his CL performances in the semi and final. He didn't have a year left in his contract that summer.

 

[Modo]

Klopp doesn't sell players that don't want to go.. The salaries paid out is ridiculous. 2nd highest in the PL and was the oldest team in PL too.
They need to appoint an SD who has a plan who will look to sell players when they reach the other side of the hill.

Exactly, which is wrong. A manager needs to be ruthless too. I mean you don't have to expect a player to act like Sakho in order to be sold.

 

[binomial]

Teams would have easily paid £30 mill for Origi after his CL performances in the semi and final. He didn't have a year left in his contract that summer.

I remember both Wolves and Valencia being linked, neither were willing to put up the money.

 

[Fabio]

The problem we have is a manager who's too loyal, and an ownership structure who are averse to paying money out consistently. They probably loved the fact klopp didn't want to sell anyone

 

[binomial]

The problem we have is a manager who's too loyal, and an ownership structure who are averse to paying money out consistently. They probably loved the fact klopp didn't want to sell anyone

Or maybe we have an ownership who are averse to paying out so we have a manager who has no choice but to make do with a far from ideal surrounding and then we get fans putting 2 and 2 together and making it as if Klopp wants to keep every player until they're 60.

Put yourself in Klopp's position, what more could you do if every summer you're being told no.

 

[rubans]

Teams would have easily paid £30 mill for Origi after his CL performances in the semi and final. He didn't have a year left in his contract that summer.

So how long did he have left then? He signed a new contract July 2019.
We got offers but not even half of 30m.
Just checked, he had a year left. No one was willing to pay 30m for a sub in his final year of contract with known injury issues. At the time, he was linked with likes of Betis.

 

[bluebell]

Exactly, which is wrong. A manager needs to be ruthless too. I mean you don't have to expect a player to act like Sakho in order to be sold.

May be Klopp doesn't have it in him, but a SD should. Before the transfer window opens, they should be discussing player contracts, who goes, salaries etc...

 

[Modo]

So how long did he have left then? He signed a new contract July 2019.
We got offers but not even half of 30m.
Just checked, he had a year left. No one was willing to pay 30m for a sub in his final year of contract with known injury issues. At the time, he was linked with likes of Betis.

Ok maybe I remembered it wrong, still should have been sold that summer.

 

[moron]

Hindsight is 20/20 adn all that, but after winning the CL Origi was valued at around £30 mill. Why didn't we sell?

Why didn't we sell Ox?
Why didn't we sell Keita?

I mean we're not talking about 20 year old players with a lot of promise. We bought Ox and Keita to make a difference. Spent almost £100 mill on both.
I can't say for certain that FSG isn't involved somehow, but more often than not, the money we bring in through transfers is often used to bring in new players.

Based on the appearances by those quoted, I would have sold all three for a combined 40M to 45M, not even 50M. The later 2 with their appearance records have cost this club, and yes selling all 3 to buy one fit player wpuld have been worth it and provided necessary rest to the others in our team. Maybe then Fabinho, and Hendersons legs would still have functioned.

 

[Modo]

May be Klopp doesn't have it in him, but a SD should. Before the transfer window opens, they should be discussing player contracts, who goes, salaries etc...

Yeah well we'll see if this SD can make sure Klopp gets rid of non-contributing players in the future.

 

[Modo]

Based on the appearances by those quoted, I would have sold all three for a combined 40M to 45M, not even 50M. The later 2 with their appearance records have cost this club, and yes selling all 3 to buy one fit player wpuld have been worth it and provided necessary rest to the others in our team. Maybe then Fabinho, and Hendersons legs would still have functioned.

The last thing you said is spot on. I bet some of our players have more miles on their legs than they should have thanks to players like Ox and Keita.

 

[dogboy]

FSG have literally gotten away with fucking murder for a few years now.

Are the bodies under Melwood?

 

[dogboy]

No I'm not part of any loon club or any club for that matter, and certainly not ones other people wanna falsify me as being part of......only club I belong to is my own.

Em, who's gonna break the news?

 

[StevieM]

@StevieM Mark is not part of the certifiable "loons" (btw Is it me, Moron and Donovan or is @binomial also in the club?) and he is pissed at how poorly player recruitment is.

That’s not how lunacy works…

There are other honorary members, past and present - Dreamie has at times been the patron saint of lunacy.

 

[StevieM]

No I'm not part of any loon club or any club for that matter, and certainly not ones other people wanna falsify me as being part of......only club I belong to is my own.

Oh… you’re in… you’re a kind of cuspy, one foot in, one foot out, straddling, sometimes balls deep, sometimes pants on kind of in…

… but you’re in.

 

[the count]

Em, who's gonna break the news?

It's funny when the loons try to decide who is and who isn't loon.

 

[binomial]

Oh… you’re in… you’re a kind of cuspy, one foot in, one foot out, straddling, sometimes balls deep, sometimes pants on kind of in…

… but you’re in.

I'm more of a you fockin' wot m8, tattoo's all over his face, what did you just say, then gets up in your face, points a gun round the back of your head and slowly repeats what did you just say......kind of out.

 

[rubans]

Ok maybe I remembered it wrong, still should have been sold that summer.

I understand the intention but selling Origi for 10m after CL winning goal wouldn’t have been sensible. He also scored decent goals 2019-20 during our Prem win. He was worthy of his place on balance.

Just the nature of how we operate is a good strong mid table club now. Only thing holding it together is Klopp, everything else can and will be replaced.

 

[Squiggles]

I've banged on about it before, but I suggest Klopp carries some responsibility for our failure to sell players in recent years, regardless of the budgets imposed upon him.

Klopp is firm enough to have very open and honest conversations with players (Henderson) and also to freeze out the likes of players who cause more drama than they are worth (Sakho). But not ruthless enough to freeze out and sell a player who logic suggests they should leave but they demonstrate a reasonable to good attitude behind the scenes - Keita, Origi, Chamberlain, Matip/Gomez, and potentially Thiago now. Furthermore both Henderson and Fabinho have seemingly left on their own terms when they wanted rather than any push from the club. Klopp wanted Milner to stay. We refused any prospect of a permanent sale of Carvalho, etc. Amongst all that there's enough evidence to suggest Klopp has some issue letting go.

For all of Edwards's skill and mystique, he did not seemingly have the authority to evolve this squad, and it felt Klopp perhaps 'won' too many of the discussions. It's also possible Klopp knows all this and values squad morale over ruthlessly evolving the squad, but that's why having a sporting director with a strong remit makes so much sense on paper. There's a degree of separation, there's increased objectivity, and an increased willingness to make tough but necessary decisions. There are obvious risks of clashes - the model isn't perfect, but we have suffered for not having it in place. In hindsight, Edward's role and remit should have increased the more he proved himself. Edwards should have been able to insist the likes of Keita and Chamberlain were sold and reinvested. It might have kept him here longer, too, and the squad would likely be in better shape than it is.

 

[moron]

Are the bodies under Melwood?

Nah they are in @StevieM 's house.

 

[moron]

I'm more of a you fockin' wot m8, tattoo's all over his face, what did you just say, then gets up in your face, points a gun round the back of your head and slowly repeats what did you just say......kind of out.

You are a top poster, this site without you would not be worth visiting.
(please hit the like button)

 

[binomial]

You are a top poster, this site without you would not be worth visiting.
(please hit the like button)

Ab-sol-ute-ly.

I bring it all baby, the sarcasm, the entertainment, the hostility, the nitty and gritty, the slap bang bosh and wham and also a whole bunch of countless valid arguments to throw at people. I'm the number 1.

SCM essentially revolves around me, I'm the reason why everyone logs in, visits and has something to say & unless you agree with me I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks.

See, now all of the above would by definition "make me a loon" which is why none of it is any true....except maybe bringing the countless valid arguments.

If you wanna find your loons, and I mean reaaallllly find your loons.....you don't have to look far, just pop over to Rawk.

 

[Brizzle]

No I'm not part of any loon club or any club for that matter, and certainly not ones other people wanna falsify me as being part of......only club I belong to is my own.

This is what a loon would say

 

[binomial]

This is what a loon would say

Would it, yeah?

I'm also not part of any far right wing party....or any other party for that matter.
I'm also not part of some drug trafficking biker gang.
Also (sadly) I'm not part of any polyamorous relationship where I get it on with 3 chicks at once.
& definitely not part of the fanbase that wants to dictate what players should and shouldn't do as if I'm owed something.

Just a few examples but carry on.

 

[StevieM]

Or maybe we have an ownership who are averse to paying out so we have a manager who has no choice but to make do with a far from ideal surrounding and then we get fans putting 2 and 2 together and making it as if Klopp wants to keep every player until they're 60.

Put yourself in Klopp's position, what more could you do if every summer you're being told no.

Isn’t that the thing though - he’s been told the same every summer - the club is to be self sustaining - FSG will invest in infrastructure but they’re not giving out money or going into debt for players - equally they’re not taking money out of the club and they’re helping to grow revenues.

How we spend or raise additional money is up to Klopp - he can choose to sell or retain anyone, he can choose to extend contracts and increase wages or let players run down contracts and leave on a free - he can choose to blow £60m on one player about to hit prime or the same on 3 x £20m younger players or he can approve signing a bunch of 30 somethings on free’s, he can choose to retain a core team or churn players constantly.

It’s all there - and he’s good enough to make ur work without having to rely on the cheque book.

Problem is - Klopp or someone has either got the buying strategy wrong or the team tasked with making it work arent very good at their job.

Truth is - it’s a bit of both - we could have gone down the route Arsenal seem to have - signing less established younger players on lower wages and sacrificing League position, CL & trophies in the short term, for a potential future crack at glory. The problems come for Arsenal when all those players start asking for big fat contract renewals and all of a sudden the wage budget is screwed or they start breaking up a winning team.

You look at our buying strategy - why did we drop pretty much our entire budget on Nunez last summer, when we desperately needed a midfielder - and then splurge another significant sum on Gakpo?

We’ve got some promising youngsters - Harvey, Doak, Bradley, Clark, Badgertits… fuck it… play them - we’re not winning the league or Champions League next season - or we’ll end up having to spend £50m a poo each time we want a player that’s half decent.

Why not steal a bit of Chelsea’s strategy or do Brighton - be all Brad Pitt and be Moneyball and sign a stack of you potential at the 19-21 that have a high probability of succeeding at that £20m price point - granted again, Brighton aren’t going to win anything and Chelsea will fuck most of them out on loan and half of them will never ever see significant first team action for Chelsea.

That’s our problem - we pride ourselves in making the best use of our resources l, but we haven’t and our buying strategy is so fucking random at times… and let’s face it, us, “the fans”, talk about developing youth, but when it comes down to it we want splurges on ready-made superstars.

We’re as all over the shop off the pitch as we are on it at times - that’s our issue - get a strategy that works within the framework we have - we’ve ballsed that up after getting it right.

 

[StevieM]

Ab-sol-ute-ly.

I bring it all baby, the sarcasm, the entertainment, the hostility, the nitty and gritty, the slap bang bosh and wham and also a whole bunch of countless valid arguments to throw at people. I'm the number 1.

SCM essentially revolves around me, I'm the reason why everyone logs in, visits and has something to say & unless you agree with me I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks.

See, now all of the above would by definition "make me a loon" which is why none of it is any true....except maybe bringing the countless valid arguments.

If you wanna find your loons, and I mean reaaallllly find your loons.....you don't have to look far, just pop over to Rawk.

Now that sounds like the loon we always accused you of being.

 

[binomial]

Now that sounds like the loon we always accused you of being.

Case in point, need I say more?

The thing with accusations is.....they can be started by anyone at anytime and are often almost always baseless which is why you'd never see someone like my good self Stevie........EVER STARTING ONE.

 

[peekay]

I've banged on about it before, but I suggest Klopp carries some responsibility for our failure to sell players in recent years, regardless of the budgets imposed upon him.

Klopp is firm enough to have very open and honest conversations with players (Henderson) and also to freeze out the likes of players who cause more drama than they are worth (Sakho). But not ruthless enough to freeze out and sell a player who needs to go for the greater good however demonstrates a reasonable to good attitude behind the scenes - Keita, Origi, Chamberlain, Matip/Gomez, and potentially Thiago now. Both Henderson and Fabinho have seemingly left on their own terms when they wanted rather than any push from the club. Klopp wanted Milner to stay. We refused any prospect of a permanent sale of Carvalho, etc. There's enough evidence there to suggest Klopp has some issue letting go.

For all of Edwards's skill and mystique, he did not seemingly have the authority to evolve this squad, and it felt Klopp perhaps 'won' too many of the discussions. It's also possible Klopp knows all this and values squad morale over ruthlessly evolving the squad, but that's why having a sporting director with a strong remit makes so much sense on paper. There's a degree of separation, there's increased objectivity, and an increased willingness to make tough but necessary decisions. There are obvious risks of clashes among managers - the model isn't perfect, but we have suffered for not having it in place. In hindsight, Edward's role and remit should have increased the more he proved himself. Edwards should have been able to insist the likes of Keita and Chamberlain were sold and reinvested. It might have kept him here longer, too, and the squad would likely be in better shape than it is.

I remember reading somewhere that Edwards did not want to renew the contracts of Hendo and Gini whereas Klopp was for it. Edwards won the Gini round. When it came to Hendo, Klopp personally intervened and the contract was done in two weeks. While I don't think there is open animosity as both Edwards and Klopp are in general cool with respect to maintaining relationships and they are not like Mourinho and Rafa to air out dirty laundry in public, I feel like there is enough smoke to indicate that Edwards left as he did not want to be held responsible for the extensions. I am betting he also saw the limits of the FSG approach and decided to "retire a hero, than live long enough to be the villain".