Benitez: I have no cash for a summer spree

[FoxForceFive]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39515.msg1077257#msg1077257 date=1269767149]
Excellent post and really well researched and certainly not ''waste of bandwidth. Clearly the last 2 transfer window have not added to the team and has been disasterous.

However all this comparison with Arsenal, who are unique in their approach, probably in European football, still does not deny the fact that to compete at the very top takes money. Just last year, the calls for Wenger's head reached fever pitch. Arsenal over the last five years have been less successful than us in terms of League position and trophies won. Arsenal aren't our targets, our targets are Chelsea and Man Utd.

Look at Arsenals wage bill which you omitted from your compelling argument. Sorry I don't
do facts and figures, but I know its significantly higher. There is a correlation between wage bill and premiership position. I don't have the facts and figures, (a recurring theme) but we've actually been punching above our weight in the Premiership certainly and probably in Europe.

Wenger is the 2nd longest serving Manager in the Premiership, he's been there over a decade and has complete control. He's taken his team from regular contenders and winners to battling for 4th position, so it can be argued he's taken that club backwards over the last 5 years.

It is a slightly unfair comparison though it does make fascinating reading and in the context of your argument backs it greatly from that perspective. In that regard I'm humble enough to say I was certainly 'owned' and I'm flattered that you clearly took the time and trouble to obtain the statistics to do so. I'm glad that I can inspire another poster in that way.

In closing I'm humbled by your post, magnifico.

[/quote]

I'd just like to say, if there's any good way to handle having your arse handed to you on a plate, the post above is it.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=39515.msg1077308#msg1077308 date=1269776301]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39515.msg1077257#msg1077257 date=1269767149]
Excellent post and really well researched and certainly not ''waste of bandwidth. Clearly the last 2 transfer window have not added to the team and has been disasterous.

However all this comparison with Arsenal, who are unique in their approach, probably in European football, still does not deny the fact that to compete at the very top takes money. Just last year, the calls for Wenger's head reached fever pitch. Arsenal over the last five years have been less successful than us in terms of League position and trophies won. Arsenal aren't our targets, our targets are Chelsea and Man Utd.

Look at Arsenals wage bill which you omitted from your compelling argument. Sorry I don't
do facts and figures, but I know its significantly higher. There is a correlation between wage bill and premiership position. I don't have the facts and figures, (a recurring theme) but we've actually been punching above our weight in the Premiership certainly and probably in Europe.

Wenger is the 2nd longest serving Manager in the Premiership, he's been there over a decade and has complete control. He's taken his team from regular contenders and winners to battling for 4th position, so it can be argued he's taken that club backwards over the last 5 years.

It is a slightly unfair comparison though it does make fascinating reading and in the context of your argument backs it greatly from that perspective. In that regard I'm humble enough to say I was certainly 'owned' and I'm flattered that you clearly took the time and trouble to obtain the statistics to do so. I'm glad that I can inspire another poster in that way.

In closing I'm humbled by your post, magnifico.

[/quote]

I'd just like to say, if there's any good way to handle having your arse handed to you on a plate, the post above is it.
[/quote]

how has his arse been handed to him? singlerider made a detailed post which the the long and the short of it was our spending is comparable to arsenal and they are challenging and we are not, but fails to point out arsenal have won nothing and that thier wage bill is higher than our and that just LAST SEASON our roles were reversed and before that rafa has finished about arsenal.

putting all that aside the people that HAVE won the big cups, manu and chelsea, have spent more AND have a higher wage bill so comparisions should be drawn with manu and chelsea as they are the ones we have to overhaul if WE want to win stuff.

 

[Avmenon]

We can only use the 'net spend' (TM) and 'wage bill' (TM) argument against Chelsea, Arsenal* and the Scum because they've won the title.

But we can't use it against teams lower than us** because they haven't won the title.

(*but we can use it against Arsenal because although they've spent a lot less than us, they haven't won anything during The Rafa Years either)

(**not for much longer)

Is that about right, Neil?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39515.msg1077317#msg1077317 date=1269777610]



We can only use the 'net spend' (TM) and 'wage bill' (TM) argument against Chelsea, Arsenal* and the Scum because they've won the title.

But we can't use it against teams lower than us** because they haven't won the title.

(*but we can use it against Arsenal because although they've spent a lot less than us, they haven't won anything during The Rafa Years either)

(**not for much longer)

Is that about right, Neil?


[/quote]


yes 😉

isn't the above strengthening rather than weakening my arguement.

we have a smaller wage bill and spend less then manu and chelsea - haven't being able to finish above them (well we did finish above chelsea last year)

the teams below us have a smaller wage bill and spend less - haven't been able to finish above us (but may this season)

who is to say finishing above chelsea last season is any less of a blip than villa finishing above us this season?

 

[Avmenon]

That's all I wanted to hear.

Thanks, Neil.

Anyway, the difference is that Villa was (until last night's disaster) playing good football; as did most of 10 Premier League teams which beat us.

We look pathetic, clueless and are devoid of any belief...and have been so for most of the season.

But yes, it's the owners fault.

 

[Biggus Dickus]

Regardless of whether Rafa should go or not, we are proper fucked until something happens at the ownerships level. Both of them are fucking as good as broke.

GTFO

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39515.msg1077255#msg1077255 date=1269766696]

I think you've forgot to take into account £12m we got back for Keane + Roughly £33m more in wages that the Gooners paid over this period of time.

So the difference in spend is actually closer to £7.5m.

Looking at the players that both teams have signed, i'd still choose ours (even if it did cost us £7.5m more).

Eduardo, Sagna, Vermelen, Nasri, Ramsey, Fab, and Arshavin

Or

Torres, Mascher, Skrtel, Magic, Aquilani, Riera, Yossi, Lucas, Insua, Babel, Ng'og and the Greek.


[/quote]

That's a fair point, I completely forgot about making some back on Keane, and Arsenal do indeed outspend us on wages to the tune of about £10-12M a year - which for what it's worth I think is fair comment - you do need to spend big to attract top talent.

However, I don't think you can say that we do not do that - Stevie is on about £150K a week, Fernando is on about £100K, Carra is on about £80K, Aqua is on about £85Kish, dunno what Dirk is on, isn't Magic supposed to be on £140K a week or something ridiculous? Or was that bullshit? Mascher is supposedly getting a new £90K a week contract, Pepe is on about the same, Agger is supposedly on about £70K a week, Skrtel approx. £50K, Riera, Babel and Yossi - who knows? Lucas and Insua probably two bits of fuck all (well, relatively speaking - I wouldn't turn it down like).

If we were to compare our first team regulars to Arsenal's, I bet there's not too much difference - Cesc is on about £120K a week, Arshavin is on about £90K, I think Van Persie is about the same, Eduardo is about £60K - I think in the grand scheme of things Arsenal's top players aren't really paid all that much by comparison to the rest of the big teams - hence why all their players keep fucking off somewhere else.

So really a fairer evaluation could be made by comparing regular starters wages against each other, which unfortunately are a bitch to find - so it's a bit of a moot point. That said, I accept that they pay more and so can afford to have a stronger squad.

However, if they've outspent us on wages by £11M per season the last 3 seasons, and we add that to the £12M we got back for Keane, that still only makes it £45M - making the difference in net spend more like £17.25M - which equates to roughly one £12M player we can pay £100K a week for one year.

Or in other words an Arshavin, Eduardo or a Nasri if you will.

That really could be the difference for us now between languishing and challenging, and whilst the list of us vs them makes pretty good reading to start with, by the time we get to Aquilani, Riera, Yossi, Lucas, Insua, Babel, Ng'og and the Greek we're looking at players that either don't get first team football or shouldn't be.

I'm more than happy to accept that Rafa needed backing last summer more than ever - and the owners completely failed to capitalise on the progress we'd made and as a result we've not only stagnated but actually gone backwards. However, what I'm not prepared to accept is something that - to me - looks like a pretty obvious ploy to pass the buck when it's patently obvious that the manager is just as culpable for the state we find ourselves in.

Now, KK makes a very salient point when he says that Arsenal shouldn't be our targets - it should be the Scum and the Chavs - who obviously massively outspend us on wage bills and also can afford to spunk £20M+ on players when needed, but the sad truth now is that our targets have become the likes of Spurs, Citeh and Villa - and I really don't see the amount of financial backing Rafa has or hasn't had being that much of a factor in that (with the exception perhaps of Citeh). These are teams that we should have distance between, these are teams that should be looking at us as we look upon United and Chelsea, and really - given the amount the manager has at his disposal, we should be looking at top 4 as an absolute minimum.

This year it's looking unlikely - a bit of luck and maybe who knows, but either way it'll have been a massive struggle and one that it's hard to justify.

Enough money and enough talent to compete with the big boys - maybe not enough to win it outright, but enough to be there or thereabouts - after that it comes down to managerial nous. Rafa has certainly proven in the past that he can pull something out of the bag when the backs are to the wall, and he's certainly proven that in a 2-legged cup tie he can mix it with the best, but what he really needs to prove is that he can produce the results consistently, season after season.

He needs to prove he can learn from his mistakes, be adaptable enough to work with what he's got, be humble enough to know when he's wrong and it isn't working and pragmatic enough to change it round - even if it goes against his own instincts.

I've yet to see evidence that he is willing or able to do any of these things, and it's incredibly frustrating that year after year when it finally seems like he's figured things out and the penny has dropped - next year it's a return to type. Players out of position, misplaced priorities, overly cautious tactics against minnows, a man-management approach that has seemingly zero consideration for the effect of confidence on a players form, a failure to reward good performances with more games and perhaps most frustratingly of all an absolute blindness to the completely fucking obvious.

Rafa has not been given the support he needs by the owners, this much is true - but the same could be said of him and some of his players, shit happens - such is life. What he really needs to do is practice what he preaches and start concentrating on the next game rather than airing dirty laundry in public and going bitching to the press about not having enough money.

He had money - not enough perhaps, but it is what it is. He chose what to do with it, and now this is the situation we're in and it ain't changing any time soon. I've always said (and I've had some shit jobs in my time) that a job is as shit as you choose to make it - even if you're pulling minimum wage working in some shitty retail job you can still put a smile on your face and make the most of what you've got - moping around bitching about how shit everything is just pisses everyone off and drags the mood down - and to me that's exactly what Rafa is doing right now.

Shut the fuck up, and get on with it. These are your tools, make the most of them, if you've got issues then talk about it later.

Right now, you've got a job to do

 

[Stulikesdrums]

Good post SR but you just don't know what Rafa's man management skills are like, what he is like to deal with day to day. Sure, there are guys who have fallen foul of him and they have been dropped quite quickly but ALL our top players speak publically about how much he has done for their game and how much they respect him. It's a hard one to call.

I agree with the rest your post whole heartedly.

 

[singlerider]

Hence why I said 'seemingly'.

I agree - none of us can really know the ins and outs of what goes on, but it seems to me fairly obvious that if you've got a player who has been in a dreadful run of form, and who seems to be just turning the corner - then dropping them after they've just played well will be crushing for their confidence.

Especially so for forwards who've just scored - surely a forward has to be one of *the* most vulnerable positions along with keeper in terms of confidence - we've all seen the difference between a forward who's confident and one who's not, the same player can look like two completely different people.

We've seen Keane, Babel and Crouch all dropped after good all-round performances and goals to boot, and though we can't make any presumptions about the kind of man-management that goes on behind the scenes, that sort of treatment is out in the open and is fairly cut-and-dry.

Sure, you can say all you want about Rafa having his own particular plan in mind, but it doesn't make any allowances for the fact that these are human beings who will perform to a varying standard depending on how they are feeling.

Now, I'm sure somebody will say that "Oh, they're paid enough, they should just fucking get on with it" but the truth is that a lot if not most people would have a similar response at work if the same thing happened to them - imagine you've been working somewhere for a while, going unnoticed and unrecognised for your efforts and feeling like you're getting nowhere. then one day your boss comes along and says they're considering you for a promotion and want to give you a chance to prove yourself. You think "Great!" You do your bit and make a good impression and you think "That's in the bag, I've done really well there" only to find that you're back to square one.

Essentially, you've just had a massive vote of no confidence from the person who determines your fate. You're bound to be a bit brainfucked, feel pretty down about things, and as a result your performance will go down - it's not hard to understand why.

To me, that is what Rafa has done on numerous occasions, and whilst it might fit in with his overall plan for how things are gonna work it has a negative impact on people that he may need to rely on one day, and as a result the team suffers. It's not quite cutting your nose off to spite your fate, but it is pure bloody-mindedness and a failure to get the best out of your staff.

In essence, for me - it's bad management

 

[darkstarexodus]

tl;dr

Just kidding. Fantastic posts Dan and I agree 100% regarding the effect of confidence and morale. It's a major factor why some of our players have not performed as we would like, Babel, Keane and Aquilani being the three that obviously spring to mind.

 

[ibromurph]

SR.. did you count Toure sold by Wenger for 15m in your figures?

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39515.msg1078183#msg1078183 date=1269893438]
SR.. did you count Toure sold by Wenger for 15m in your figures?
[/quote]

Nope totally forgot him.

Guess that evens it up for Keane

 

[Avmenon]

Massive ownage by the Ho.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39515.msg1078319#msg1078319 date=1269912639]
Massive ownage by the Ho.
[/quote]

I don't think you've taken the time to read all of SR posts in this thread mate. He does make some very valid points (quite a few i totally agree with), but has admitted himself that the £33m more in wages that the gooners pay should be taken into account.

In this period also the crow, Dossena and any day now Riera will have all been moved on, so in effect we've got a difference of roughly £20m (£25m if Riera stays) spend between the 2 clubs.

So, by spending £20m more than them we've added:

Torres, Mascher, Skrtel, Magic, Aquilani, Yossi, Lucas, Insua, Babel, Cavalieri, Ng'og, the Greek and maybe Riera will still be here too.

Whilst the gooners have added:

Eduardo, Sagna, Vermelen, Nasri, Ramsey, Fab, and Arshavin

Wenger is rightly hailed as being one of the best in the business with regards to getting value for money, yet looking at the above i think i'd choose Rafa's signings over his (even if it did cost £20m more).

Rafa has underachieved this season and maybe it will cost him his job, but please stop trying to paint everything he's done with us as being utter shite.

 

[Sunny]

In other shock news Ricky Martin has announced he is gay. He just didn't seem the type

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39515.msg1078396#msg1078396 date=1269940336]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39515.msg1078319#msg1078319 date=1269912639]
Massive ownage by the Ho.
[/quote]

I don't think you've taken the time to read all of SR posts in this thread mate. He does make some very valid points (quite a few i totally agree with), but has admitted himself that the £33m more in wages that the gooners pay should be taken into account.

In this period also the crow, Dossena and any day now Riera will have all been moved on, so in effect we've got a difference of roughly £20m (£25m if Riera stays) spend between the 2 clubs.

So, by spending £20m more than them we've added:

Torres, Mascher, Skrtel, Magic, Aquilani, Yossi, Lucas, Insua, Babel, Ng'og, the Greek and maybe Riera will still be here too.

Whilst the gooners have added:

Eduardo, Sagna, Vermelen, Nasri, Ramsey, Fab, and Arshavin

Wenger is rightly hailed as being one of the best in the business with regards to getting value for money, yet looking at the above i think i'd choose Rafa's signings over his (even if it did cost £20m more).

Rafa has underachieved this season and maybe it will cost him his job, but please stop trying to paint everything he's done with us as being utter shite.

[/quote]

fucking A, r4pm

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39515.msg1078396#msg1078396 date=1269940336]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39515.msg1078319#msg1078319 date=1269912639]
Massive ownage by the Ho.
[/quote]

I don't think you've taken the time to read all of SR posts in this thread mate. He does make some very valid points (quite a few i totally agree with), but has admitted himself that the £33m more in wages that the gooners pay should be taken into account.

In this period also the crow, Dossena and any day now Riera will have all been moved on, so in effect we've got a difference of roughly £20m (£25m if Riera stays) spend between the 2 clubs.

So, by spending £20m more than them we've added:

Torres, Mascher, Skrtel, Magic, Aquilani, Yossi, Lucas, Insua, Babel, Cavalieri, Ng'og, the Greek and maybe Riera will still be here too.

Whilst the gooners have added:

Eduardo, Sagna, Vermelen, Nasri, Ramsey, Fab, and Arshavin

Wenger is rightly hailed as being one of the best in the business with regards to getting value for money, yet looking at the above i think i'd choose Rafa's signings over his (even if it did cost £20m more).

Rafa has underachieved this season and maybe it will cost him his job, but please stop trying to paint everything he's done with us as being utter shite.

[/quote]

I wouldn't say that everything he's done is utter shite for an instant - I'm just taking issue with the opposing view that he should be absolved of all blame and that the situation we find ourselves in is not down to him as much as anyone else - and for the record I think he's underachieved in more seasons that just this one.

Sure, Wenger is a bit of a one-off and seems to have the Midas touch when it comes to transfers - especially on the cheap, and for what it's worth I think that our list does make better reading than theirs - up to a point.

If we balance up with Keane, Toure, Voronin and Dossena that leaves it as overall standings Rafa - lost £34M, Wenger - made £25M making the difference £59M in Wenger's favour. Take out the wages estimating an outspend of £11M a year (though I have to say - I do have my doubts over the validity of this one, as I think we should be comparing first-team salaries against one another, which we're not doing - but we'll give it benefit of the doubt) and this brings it down to £26M.

So, we've spent £26M more than them, but we've got Torres, Mascher, Skittles, Magic et al to make up for it - fair enough. To be honest I'd probably be inclined to think that Torres and Mascher alone are almost enough to make it worth it, chuck Magic and Skittles in there and you'd probably be hard pushed to find many Reds that wouldn't agree with the prospect of outspending our rivals to get that quality of player.

However, that's only one way of looking at it - if we look at the rest of that list, the Babels, Aqualanis and the like what we're looking at there is a shitpile of money that has been spent on players that either aren't up to the job, aren't being used to their maximum potential, or are too young and inexperienced to really be considered anything other than propsects - despite being forced into more important roles within the team.

I'd say we'll ignore Yossi, cos he's a good squad player (even if he rarely gets played in a position he's good in these days), ignore Insua and Ngog because they were cheap and young and ignore Kyrgiakos because he's looking like a half decent signing.

So - we're looking predominantly at Aqualani (£17M), Babel (£11.5M), Riera (£8M), Lucas (£5M) and Cavalieri (£3.5M). I've included Cavalieri because I fail to see how a reserve keeper was an important enough position to spend £3.5M on, especially when we've been hoovering up every young keeper in the solar system for so many years - surely one of them by now must've been ok? So, in all that we've got £45M worth of players that are either not good enough, don't have the manager's faith, or both . . . err, actually - maybe not both either they aren't good enough and have the manager's faith, or maybe are good enough and don't have the manager's faith, but we'll never know . . . or something.

I dunno, it's all too confusing. Basically, we're looking at £45M of fuck up with which we need/needed to fill several positions urgently. LB, CM, CM (backup), LW, ST (backup) - or RW and shift Dirk back to his proper position. I reckon we'd have to roughly partition that into about £10M each for the forward positions and CM, and about £5M each for backup CM and LB.

Not ideal, I'll grant you, but surely it has to be better than having an injury prone striker with no real backup, two left wingers, neither of which have the manager's confidence, a centre mid the manager's afraid to play, a centre mid everyone's afraid the manager will play, and a left back who's had so many new arseholes torn his buttcheeks must look like the surface of the moon.

Like I was saying before - it's not just a matter of making a booboo in the transfer market and getting the odd player here and there wrong, it's the complete lack of provision for Plan B - what the fuck was gonna happen if/when Torres got injured?

I dunno, I'm not trying to say it's *all* Rafa's fault - but I certainly think it's mostly his fault given the time and the money he's had to construct the team how he wants it. Don't get me wrong, there's some massive successes in there, but there's still worryingly basic failings and an unshakeable notion that maybe he just doesn't really learn from his mistakes.

Ever since the game last year when Lucas got played on the wing I had Rafa Out as my signature and he proceeded to make me look like a cunt all season.

This year I took it off and he's gone and done the same thing again