Why aren't we more excited about Origi?

[manwithnoname]

I accept that I do also have an ingrained and perhaps old-fashioned affinity for strikers who score lots of goals

I'm not being glib, but that's all I care about. I know and understand the modern 'value' associated with hold-up play, ability to work the channels, versatility, workrate and any other trope or cliche, but I still enjoy seeing strikers score goals more than anything else

So I've always loved even the less highly rated or lauded strikers like Cole or Defoe, and envy teams who have players like RVN, Costa, Aguero et al, while enjoying the mayhem that a machine like Owen could cause, as well as the more obviously outrageously gifted Suarez, Fowler or Torres

And thanks to this discussion, I'm totally clueless about what's happening in this final episode of Westworld, which I struggle to keep up with even when I'm properly concentrating

 

[Kay Age El]

I've just paused Westworld for the night, it's a movie length final episode goddammit and my head is spinning with AI and time travel and naked cowboy ladies and sick coughing kids that's constantly making the baby alarm flash its stressful blue blinks.

And that has got absolutely nothing to do with Origi btw.. unless of course we'd start calling him The Sheriff or something equally lame..

 

[moron]

Actually I am - I think there are few comparisons you can make regarding strikers these days - as most are just average - I think Origi is very good, he was proving to be something very special last season until that Everton player deliberately fucked him up. His record is actually very good and deserves a fair assessment on the basis that he has not been starting games from the start of the season like the others in our regular lineup so he will need a few games to get into it.

 

[mom]

Good player but not a great. But he's young and has loads of potential and a great manager above him so who knows what his ceiling is.

 

[Pesam]

Maybe I'm not seeing something. But watching Demebele and Iheanacho (or whatever the fuck his name is) tonight, I rate them both higher

Especially Dembele

Weirdly enough the majority of City and Celtic fans I speak to are not convinced by either Iheanacho or Dembele. I've spoken to many City fans who reckon Iheanacho will never be good enough to play regularly. The Celtic fans that I know (and who raved about Wanyama, Van Dijk, Forster etc) reckon they should accept the first £20m bid that comes in for Dembele!

Obviously both these players are a similar age to Origi so writing them off this early is just wrong but so far neither of the 2 players you mention seem to be winning favour amongst the people who see them most often.

 

[Frogfish]

Which other 21 yr old (or younger) is tearing it up for a top team in any of the big leagues (Spain, Italia, Germany, PL) ? I can't think of one off the top of my head. And that's probably got more to do with the way football is played now than 20, 10 or maybe even 5 years ago. I'm sure that Owen, Fowler and Torres would still be scoring goals consistently - but at the same rate ? Possibly , impossible to say.

However it does seem that young strikers are no longer given the same opportunities at top teams - they need to have proved themselves elsewhere before those teams are willing to take a gamble on them as their main striker. Maybe Iheanacho and Origi will break the mould, maybe Woodburn will in due time. I've great hopes for both Origi and Woodburn given careful management and match time.

 

[Woland]

I thought he was cack and now I think he's boss. Pretty much everyone I speak to who goes the match is excited about him. If he keeps improving at the rate he has the last year he'll be as good as anyone we've got.

 

[Rosco]

Rashford is playing out of position and 2 years younger

And rashford isn't that good either

And he's scored more league goals than Origi too

 

[LeTallecWiz]

And he's scored more league goals than Origi too

and started more games too I'm guessing!

 

[Rosco]

and started more games too I'm guessing!

Not if he disappeared ?

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Not if he disappeared ?

I'm being whooshed right?

 

[Rosco]

No not really.

I suppose i'm really bemused by the stupidly over the top labels like 'world class talent' bestowed upon Origi by Hansern (while seeking to downplay non LFC strikers) despite at age 21 Origi having 4 Premier League goals to his name in a season and a half. Eapecially given the lack of any real striking competition.

Harry Kane, who isn't a 'world class talent' was significantly better at age 21.

I feel like i need to say I think he's a decent player who could have a good career. But i don't see that we have a future outstanding player on our hands.

I'm guessing Hansern probably said similar about Jordan Ibe - how is he getting on ?

 

[tombrown]

He was 22 when Blackburn broke the transfer record to sign him

OK ... so

Blackburn - "a very big club in the premiership?"

 

[manwithnoname]

OK ... so

Blackburn - "a very big club in the premiership?"

Yeah, they were catapulted into the top echelons of the game by a massive and sudden influx of cash, appointed the legendary Kenny Dalglish as manager, outspent everyone to buy up some of the best players around, paid a record fee for a goalkeeper (Flowers) and then broke the transfer record twice to sign Shearer and then Sutton, and duly won the league.

Due to the cash spent, wages offered and the signings they made, the expectations were obviously high

The Chelsea of the day, if you like.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

No not really.

I suppose i'm really bemused by the stupidly over the top labels like 'world class talent' bestowed upon Origi by Hansern (while seeking to downplay non LFC strikers) despite at age 21 Origi having 4 Premier League goals to his name in a season and a half. Eapecially given the lack of any real striking competition.

Harry Kane, who isn't a 'world class talent' was significantly better at age 21.

I feel like i need to say I think he's a decent player who could have a good career. But i don't see that we have a future outstanding player on our hands.

I'm guessing Hansern probably said similar about Jordan Ibe - how is he getting on ?

I think Harry Kane is brilliant - a twat, but brilliant. But where was he as a 20 year old? Any where? I think most Spurs fans say they never thought he'd be this good. It's all about breaks ... Origi hasn't played 50 games in a season, which is what Kane did at 21/22 and scored 30 goals in the process. So it's all about the opportunities players get, and take ... Origi was playing great last year before he got injured - far better than Firmino or Studge. He's not the finished product, and may actually never get there, but I have no issue with calling him a world class talent because he has everything in his locker ... The question is will he make it, which is never a given in the sport as we've seen with other 'world class talents' ...

 

[Rosco]

I think Harry Kane is brilliant - a twat, but brilliant. But where was he as a 20 year old? Any where? I think most Spurs fans say they never thought he'd be this good. It's all about breaks ... Origi hasn't played 50 games in a season, which is what Kane did at 21/22 and scored 30 goals in the process. So it's all about the opportunities players get, and take ... Origi was playing great last year before he got injured - far better than Firmino or Studge. He's not the finished product, and may actually never get there, but I have no issue with calling him a world class talent because he has everything in his locker ... The question is will he make it, which is never a given in the sport as we've seen with other 'world class talents' ...

If he's a world class talent he'll make it. The phrase is far too readily touted at an early stage (and then excuses are made up as to why you/someone were right about his world class talent but all this other stuff happened).

As for Harry Kane, during 14/15 season he was the same age as Origi is now. He scored 21 league goals - 28 starts and 8 sub appearances.

The season before that for Kane was more Origi like - 6 starts, 10 sub appearances - 3 goals.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

If he's a world class talent he'll make it. The phrase is far too readily touted at an early stage (and then excuses are made up as to why you/someone were right about his world class talent but all this other stuff happened).

As for Harry Kane, during 14/15 season he was the same age as Origi is now. He scored 21 league goals - 28 starts and 8 sub appearances.

The season before that for Kane was more Origi like - 6 starts, 10 sub appearances - 3 goals.

No, if he's a world class talent he won't necessarily make it there are things that hold players back - work ethic, injuries, not enough games (be it because the gaffa is under pressure, or they're playing for a city/chelsea/barca etc). The key developmental age for players is 18-22 - you rarely see players break through from the unknown (alla Vardy) past 25 ... so if they don't get the necessary breaks, they don't make it to the level they can reach ... That's all I'm saying. It's not just talent ...

 

[ILD]

And rashford isn't that good either

I disagree. I think he's very good and I'm delighted he isn't getting much game time this season.

 

[manwithnoname]

I disagree. I think he's very good and I'm delighted he isn't getting much game time this season.

Why? Do you think he would have outscored Zlatan?

Because he's scored 12

 

[ILD]

Why? Do you think he would have outscored Zlatan?

Because he's scored 12

I'm delighted he isn't getting too much game time as I wanted his development as a player to be stunted. I think he's a great talent. Same goes for Martial.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

I'm delighted he isn't getting too much game time as I wanted his development as a player to be stunted. I think he's a great talent. Same goes for Martial.

Yup ... and I think Manure would probably be in a better position if Mourinho would go with:
Martial-Rasfhord
Mata

Speed, talent etc ...

 

[Woland]

World class talent is totally subjective, means different things to different people.... But Kane is one of the best strikers in one of the best leagues in the world. He's pretty damn good, and I don't think he just got lucky like loads of people do. But as we've seen millions of times comparing players in different systems and ages makes no sense. Drogba was crap till mid 20s. Suarez found his shooting boots after we'd had him a year. You don't know when someone's peak time is going to kick in, but Origi is the most promising kid we've had in ages. He's got 3 in 4 league cup appearances and 2 from 250 mins in the prem, most of which have been 20 mins here and there. That's damn good, and if he keeps his place I expect him to score loads in this side.

 

[tombrown]

Yeah, they were catapulted into the top echelons of the game by a massive and sudden influx of cash, appointed the legendary Kenny Dalglish as manager, outspent everyone to buy up some of the best players around, paid a record fee for a goalkeeper (Flowers) and then broke the transfer record twice to sign Shearer and then Sutton, and duly won the league.

Due to the cash spent, wages offered and the signings they made, the expectations were obviously high

The Chelsea of the day, if you like.

I'm messing with you.
I have a slightly different interpretation of what is a big club in the premiership, but its purely subjective and an exercise in futility to debate it ... a bit like the annual "what is the definition of world class?" debate that this forum indulges in

 

[Kay Age El]

I don't think it's fair or even clever to classify Origi as a world class talent really, it kinda also spirals expectations into orbit and that won't help him nor us. He needs to develop nice and steadily and I am very positive he could turn into a very good or even great striker for us. I like him.

But world class talents are rare and more 'obvious'.

Lewandowski was around 22 when he joined Dortmund and he more or less instantly set the Bundesliga alight, Ronaldo when he joined United and got his first season under his belt became more or less unplayable. Pogba, though some might still disagree, is a world class talented player that has made an impact from more or less take-off career-wise. And then there's a few of our own strikers in Suarez, Torres and Owen whom are/were all in their own way obvious world class talents.

Origi is not in that bracket for me, but he doesn't have to be either to become a world class striker. Time will tell, and for now, we should have a lot of faith in him, I know I do.

 

[Rosco]

No, if he's a world class talent he won't necessarily make it there are things that hold players back - work ethic, injuries, not enough games (be it because the gaffa is under pressure, or they're playing for a city/chelsea/barca etc). The key developmental age for players is 18-22 - you rarely see players break through from the unknown (alla Vardy) past 25 ... so if they don't get the necessary breaks, they don't make it to the level they can reach ... That's all I'm saying. It's not just talent ...

Not enough games is generally out of their control, particularly if your competition is strong. Certain managers don't give young players many opportunities. But i'm not sure either of those apply to Origi at the moment.

And you can't separate work ethic and injuries from talent or ability. Being fit enough to play regularly is a talent in itself. The better someone looks after themselves the less time they'll spend out. Obviously separate out injuries caused by contact / tackles / falls etc.

Could he turn out to be the next Drogba ? Absolutely, but its a long shot.

Turning out like Welbeck is a distinct possibility too.

 

[Kay Age El]

World class talent is totally subjective, means different things to different people.... But Kane is one of the best strikers in one of the best leagues in the world. He's pretty damn good, and I don't think he just got lucky like loads of people do. But as we've seen millions of times comparing players in different systems and ages makes no sense. Drogba was crap till mid 20s. Suarez found his shooting boots after we'd had him a year. You don't know when someone's peak time is going to kick in, but Origi is the most promising kid we've had in ages. He's got 3 in 4 league cup appearances and 2 from 250 mins in the prem, most of which have been 20 mins here and there. That's damn good, and if he keeps his place I expect him to score loads in this side.

Kane is not just a lucky one-season wonder type of player, not even close.

He is a genuine striker that we'd be absolutely lucky to have in our ranks. I don't get if people can't see that, but I guess they've only seen him in glimpses or for England where he has looked well below par. I have seen him loads for Spurs (as I have followed one of his teammates pretty close) and he's more or less always a danger-man, always a threat for any defense, never backs down and constantly delivers (bar a few games early Season). He is undoubtedly a world class talent.

 

[Woland]

I don't think it's fair or even clever to classify Origi as a world class talent really, it kinda also spirals expectations into orbit and that won't help him nor us. He needs to develop nice and steadily and I am very positive he could turn into a very good or even great striker for us. I like him.

But world class talents are rare and more 'obvious'.

Lewandowski was around 22 when he joined Dortmund and he more or less instantly set the Bundesliga alight, Ronaldo when he joined United and got his first season under his belt became more or less unplayable. Pogba, though some might still disagree, is a world class talented player that has made an impact from more or less take-off career-wise. And then there's a few of our own strikers in Suarez, Torres and Owen whom are/were all in their own way obvious world class talents.

Origi is not in that bracket for me, but he doesn't have to be either to become a world class striker. Time will tell, and for now, we should have a lot of faith in him, I know I do.

Lewandowski was crap in his first season for Dortmund. Klopp got loads of grief for persisting with him.

 

[Kay Age El]

Lewandowski was crap in his first season for Dortmund. Klopp got loads of grief for persisting with him.

I guess I was over-selling that bit then, he scored 1 in 4 in a team that won the Bundesliga with him as their main striker. So even though he wasn't completely otherworldly he was still an integral part.

But yeah I guess your point is valid still.. he wasn't sparkling from the off.

 

[Woland]

My only point really is that Origi should be judged on his own merits, and after a bad start he now looks genuinely very promising to me and I think he could be great.

 

[Kay Age El]

My only point really is that Origi should be judged on his own merits, and after a bad start he now looks genuinely very promising to me and I think he could be great.

..and I agree.