Not Gini though.
Thur thing boss!
- Thread starter LeTallecWiz
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Not Gini though.
& also I'd be wanting our scouts to be doing a much better job at present of finding these teenagers for us to develop......their success rate in finding players (particularly overseas) for our beat down, almost lifeless academy has been poor....and I know a lot of this doesn't get talked about and overlooked for the first team but for me it's a serious issue....so that we don't have to be looking at a deal for a 19 year old Lavia at 50m, because we already have 2 or 3 in the academy/first team who we bought in years ago for a few mill.
So many good players I've seen at the u21 tournament who would be instantly worth investing in.
So many good players I've seen at the u21 tournament who would be instantly worth investing in.
I'm completely on board with this.l, but I do think there's a disconnect between the academy and the first team. The only way anyone seems to get a chance is an injury crisis. Trent, Jones, Phillips, Stefan, Williams (neco and Rhys), all only really got chances due to injuries. Otherwise we just buy for the position. It's rare a player gets the chance to play their way in to the team.
TAA, Bajcetic, Nat Phillips & Rhys Williams (one half season), Kelleher, and last of all, the generational talent, Curtis "Toxteth Zidane" Jones. Not a bad haul for a team which has consistently competed for the league.
I've got no issue with phasing away from Fab, he was THAT poor last season although I think him featuring predominantly all season says to me Klopp will be willing to give him another season.....half season to prove his worth and regain his form, which I'd be ok with.
Look at Hazard at Chelsea, he had that 1 really really poor season after having 4-5 brilliant seasons, then the next he had one of his best.
If Fab struggles next season until Christmas, love the guy but he has to be fully phased out.
As far as Lavia having a higher ceiling than Baj.....what is that based on? Isn't that because Lavia has had the platform to perform week in week out and remind everyone every week what he can do? Baj hasn't really had that, he's been a bit part player that filled in when we had an injury crisis and in that time he played very well.
It is very difficult to find the space for a young player to play his way into the team in a squad which has consistently hit 90 points over the past few seasons. Unless they are a TAA level elite talent.
& with the exception of Chelsea (who are notoriously the best at bringing players through) I get the argument will be "but who else has a high success rate of constantly feeding through academy players"
My answer is I don't really care, stop focusing on other clubs and what they're not doing & using that as a reason why we shouldn't change that for us.....to use to our advantage.
Barca Madrid Sporting Lyon Ajax Monaco Chelsea etc all these clubs have mastered this art......where are we? Why are we so far down that list.
Trent is the only one from those names I'd consider an out and out success.....Jones creeping into the hat.
The rest, just no. Playing a dozen games in all comps over the course of 4-5 years isn't success especially in Nat and Rhys case where we were down to the bare bones....they weren't planned for the season, it was only due to an emergency situation they were needed.
I have already said I have no clue how good or bad he is. Just the sense I am getting from reading Southampton fans opinion on him. Also, Chelsea, Arsenal, United and us are in for him and no one has balked away from the price. There must be something there. Also, given that Fabinho, Thiago are all on their way out, no harm in having two midfielders with similar attributes in the squad.
Since 2019, we have hit 90 points three times and played in two CL finals. There is not a lot of space for youngsters to find their way into such a squad unless they are genuinely elite. You cant complain, why aren't we doing what Dortmund, Brighton are doing and then complain why we aren't we competing at the top end of the table. In the PL, given the level of competitiveness with Chelsea and the current version of City, you pick one or the other.
A certain Roy Keane was relegated once upon a time before moving to Utd.
Hmm.
But Dortmund did compete for the title last season didn't they? With a decent number of talented youths......Madrid have managed to make it work too as have Barca, who've bought through the likes of Nacho, Asencio, Marcelo, Ramos, Puyol, Pedri, Alves, Busquets.....all these players were signed by Madrid/Barca before they turned 20.
I do get your point in the grand scheme of things but it feels as times our scouts don't even try to work for the academy & that's hugely disappointing.
The issue is we don't seem to do enough in the transition from youth to 1st team. I've no doubt there is some talent there, but if we're not providing the step up, it's no wonder players struggle or only find moves to Scotland or the championship
I've never seen natural talent in a lot of these players that've since moved on to play at lower level.....I think Brewster & Wilson was the only 2 since Trent I've seen at the academy who I thought, "Yeah, very gifted players with the potential to go all the way"...sadly for 1 reason or the other hasn't worked out.
Sterling I saw a lot of good things, the pace to blitz past full backs for sure, but I thought he was way too raw and didn't think he could cope physically......great he proved me wrong.
The rest? Just another academy player....it's very easy to tell if you've watched enough youth football who stand out from the rest, Rossiter....Brannagan,.....Ojo.....Lloyd Jones......Brewitt.......Wisdom etc were never it.
Sterling I saw a lot of good things, the pace to blitz past full backs for sure, but I thought he was way too raw and didn't think he could cope physically......great he proved me wrong.
The rest? Just another academy player....it's very easy to tell if you've watched enough youth football who stand out from the rest, Rossiter....Brannagan,.....Ojo.....Lloyd Jones......Brewitt.......Wisdom etc were never it.
Madrid and Barcelona aren't playing in leagues where a draw is as bad as a defeat.
If there's the same leeway here as in La Liga then maybe Klopp could have given more kids a run out
This scenario only plays out true if you're in a head to head race for the title from start to finish against a sportswashing club where every game is almost seen as an automatic win before a ball is kicked.
So ok yes you could apply this statement for the 3-4 years where we were involved in that......otherwise I don't see how that's true.
The operative word being in the premier league. Madrid paid 8-9 million euros for Marcelo in 2007 and then he was not a regular player for another 3 years. We could not have afforded that amount at that time for a player who spends close to three years on the bench. Madrid paid close to world record fee for Ramos in 2005.
The level of competitiveness in La liga is low. Also, it seems every footballer in Spain from 5 years onwards dream of playing for Madrid or Barcelona. So it is easy to create a great youth system if you are one of the two.
Ok I suppose they weren't the best examples.....& I could move away from Spain into the Prem & focus on Arsenal/Chelsea for example buying the likes of Martinelli, Gnabry & Musah into their academy.....bringing through Saka, Smith Rowe, Willock, Wilshire, Maitland-Niles, Fabregas, Bellerin. Not even gonna bother going through Chelsea's list.
Why is our output not nearly as strong? We are a bigger global appeal than them......& nationally we occupy a wider county ranger than them including Lancashire & Cheshire.
We can talk about the varying quality and depth of talent pools in different areas and the level of competitiveness when it comes to getting these players into the club but fundamentally I think it boils down to investment.
Happy to be told I'm wrong by someone with more inside knowledge or someone who has done the research but my assumption is that we don't spend (either on fees or wages) the sort of money some of our competitors do and consequently the general level of talent isn't quite as high.
I don't think there is much more Klopp can do to make room for young talent in the team. TAA has become a star. Jones, Elliot Bajcetic, Kelleher and one or two others have been given opportunities (though sometimes out of necessity). Ultimately you can only work with what you've got.
Happy to be told I'm wrong by someone with more inside knowledge or someone who has done the research but my assumption is that we don't spend (either on fees or wages) the sort of money some of our competitors do and consequently the general level of talent isn't quite as high.
I don't think there is much more Klopp can do to make room for young talent in the team. TAA has become a star. Jones, Elliot Bajcetic, Kelleher and one or two others have been given opportunities (though sometimes out of necessity). Ultimately you can only work with what you've got.
You are making my point with Arsenal. They gave the space and time needed for those talents to develop where they consistently finished in the Europa league places. And when they finished in Europa league places, they spend more money than we did. Fabregas belonged to a different era. Then we might as well bring in Gerrard, Carragher, Fowler, McManaman into the discussion.
Cant compare Chelsea to us. They spend significant amount of money on youth prospects. Almost to the level where we spend on first team.
But Chelsea also scouted the likes of James, Mount, Loftus Cheek, Hudson Odoi, Gallagher, Abraham, Tomori, Chalobah, Guehi, Colwill for nothing and made a fortune out of it. How do they do it? They must have scouts who work non-stop to make the academy better.
If we can’t scale up like that nationally or even locally then it wouldn’t hurt to set aside 5m each summer for talents to go straight into our u21s for a year or 2…like we did Sterling, Doak and Bajcetic. More of these types.
If we can’t scale up like that nationally or even locally then it wouldn’t hurt to set aside 5m each summer for talents to go straight into our u21s for a year or 2…like we did Sterling, Doak and Bajcetic. More of these types.
Not sure about the specifics, but Chelsea spend a lot more on academy, youth prospects, salary, etc. They have access to larger talent pool due to location and they have the money. Around 2018-2020, they had more than 40 players on loan and I am sure all of their wages were subsidized in some form by Chelsea.
If we start spending that amount on our youth team, we wont have any money for first team. We do spend some amount on promising youth prospects. Elliott, Carvalho, Calvin Ramsay all belong to that category. But we barely have a first team squad without holes in them. At that point, we cant do the Chelsea style indiscriminate spending on academy and youth.
Exactly. I remember around 2005-2012, lot of posters were like why cant we do what Arsenal does with youth prospects. Arsene Wenger at that time was offering 15-25K per week or higher wages for talented youth players. The normal wages for youth prospects was like 5K or lower at that time. There is a reason why so many of them rejected contract offers from Barcelona and other top clubs to join Arsenal. Not because of Arsene Wenger's magical ability to improve them. Credit to him for identifying that strategy. But when other clubs, particularly Chelsea started copying that, his effectiveness in attracting youth prospects decreased significantly.
Just Mount alone should recoup back a big part of the original cost for that 40 odd young players. They also get substantial loan fees off a good number of them. Just speculating though, who knows how many hands they greased to get the youngsters in the first place.
Not debating that point. But the thing is there is a safety in numbers approach. The spend a decent chunk of money hoovering up youth talent, wages etc. Yes, when Mount, Loftus Cheek, Tomori works out, they get significantly higher returns. But their approach was Abramovich's way of getting past the FFP. We dont have that money to spend on youth teams, not to that extent without sacrificing first team expenditures.
It is like couple of my friends who told me if I had only invested 20000 among multiple tech companies in 2008-2010, I could have retired by now. That is correct, but I would need to not eat for a year to have 20000 to invest in tech companies in 2008-2010.
I think Robertson was older , this kid is 19 and we gonna play him in a role that is better equipped for a player with experience. Everyone kept on going on about Touchomaini, and Cav for RM, they got thumped by Man City, if they had someone like the guy they sold to united, would they have still git spanked as badly ? Despite his skill level I think he is a bit overly confident in his abilities and will cost us next season.
The scouting side of things isn't that important. Any half decent youth scout, given a decent budget and the mandate to sign 20 odd youth prospects would be able to turn a decent profit out of that activity.
The issue is that there are rules around youth recruitment. Some clubs follow them, some don't. We were forever being told "City have offered the parents XYZ" but we weren't willing to match that because of the rules. It will come as a surprise to some of you, but the likes of City and Chelsea aren't always that squeaky clean when it comes to following the rules. I know, shocking, eh?
And the scheme now has a potentially small shelf life because FIFA was talking about restricting the number of (professional) players clubs can send out on loan, to prevent clubs from harvesting all the youth talent - the limit was 8 last year, ultimately coming down to 6. There were years when Chelsea had 20-30 players out on loan.
Basically, FIFA wants these kids to go through Academies near to where they live, grow up in their parents' home, make their debuts for clubs they probably supported as kids and maybe turn a profit for those clubs when it's clear they're good enough to step up somewhere else. And this is probably a better route for those kids because they stand a chance of making it where they train, rather than being farmed out across Europe, 9 months here, 9 months there, or playing youth or reserve team football only at a big club and then feeling totally fucked over if they don't make it.
The business of football doesn't want that, those kids are just a commodity, a means to an end.
The issue is that there are rules around youth recruitment. Some clubs follow them, some don't. We were forever being told "City have offered the parents XYZ" but we weren't willing to match that because of the rules. It will come as a surprise to some of you, but the likes of City and Chelsea aren't always that squeaky clean when it comes to following the rules. I know, shocking, eh?
And the scheme now has a potentially small shelf life because FIFA was talking about restricting the number of (professional) players clubs can send out on loan, to prevent clubs from harvesting all the youth talent - the limit was 8 last year, ultimately coming down to 6. There were years when Chelsea had 20-30 players out on loan.
Basically, FIFA wants these kids to go through Academies near to where they live, grow up in their parents' home, make their debuts for clubs they probably supported as kids and maybe turn a profit for those clubs when it's clear they're good enough to step up somewhere else. And this is probably a better route for those kids because they stand a chance of making it where they train, rather than being farmed out across Europe, 9 months here, 9 months there, or playing youth or reserve team football only at a big club and then feeling totally fucked over if they don't make it.
The business of football doesn't want that, those kids are just a commodity, a means to an end.
Don't worry BB, I'm sure you'll have your heart set on someone else by this time tomorrow.
There are many many many.....many players out there with an impeccable injury record that want to join us.
Maybe we looked to the u21 tournament for validation, weren't too impressed with either Thuram Kone Veiga or Gravenburch and looked elsewhere? If that's the case then maybe we're got our eye on a few that are left in the SF's.
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