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The good of the game.

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Molbystwin

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Just been sitting here in the heat watching Barca easily destroy Osasuna and I have finally come round to the realisation that Jimmy Hill ably assisted by Marc Bosman have unwittingly created an ugly monster.

Finally last night I got to listen to the talksport link posted up ( thanks very much whoever it was!) in it Craig Johnston amongst telling of his fascinating life goes on to espouse a clearly firmly held belief that clubs are paying far too much money to players and talks of agents being a "cancer" in the game who have inflated the wages to ludicrous levels.

A bit strong I thought but then, Gray correctly pointed out that If the clubs were to come to a point where they stopped paying players ridiculous wages then they would simply not play for that particular club.

So where do you go next?

The newspapers reported last week that Man City have spent 1,000,000£ a day for the last 3 years, inconceivable spending for any other teams bar maybe Chelsea or perhaps Real or Barca, but to what end? Has it improved the game? The influx of cash has only served to make a very small cabal of financially unassailable clubs who can literally cherry pick the players from any club they so desire. I dont begrudge the players who earn the money, but Jimmy hill and the PFA all those years ago probably didnt envisage players earning 250,000£ a year let alone a week. It has gone too far, is unsustainable and what is more you can see how it will crash.

The hoo-ha here in Spain recently was spectacularly Spanish but nonetheless interesting. The Villareal chairman, a fella called Roig {side note i've unfortunately met the geezer and taught his progeny and his is an utter tool of a man, responsible for a chain a superstores, I dislike him enough to wish him ill or at least that someone shits in his ear while he sleeps} After Villareal got a pasting by Real he basically spat the dummy over the disparity in La Liga and convened a meeting with numerous other chairmen of the top flight clubs, the meeting was invite only and Real and Barca were not invited. The meeting revolved around the fact that in Spain due to Real and Barca being able to negotiate unilateral TV rights agreements meant the rest of the league was not only massively inferior on the pitch but once proud clubs were fundamentally now "feeder clubs" unable to retain their best players. Players who whether avaricious young men or not are nonetheless compelled to join one of the big two in order to win anything in their careers. So far so what? Footy is great yeah! ....

Roig, cunt that he is, suggested something so outrageously brave that it would never come to pass but nonetheless would work, he said that any team that facing one of the big two should field a youth side or a B team and take the beating, because in essence all other teams were just that. How much would the TV companies be willing to pay to the big two if it was literally a procession of massive wins against financially subdued opponents? Would people still want to watch? Would the advertising slots be sold? At its base being what use is the rest of the league if i can hardly dream of competing?

Of course it wont happen, nobody is that courageous, but then the situation we are in now is so financially twisted that maybe it should, maybe it would take a collective action by so called "lesser" clubs to cut through all the hype and the greed and point out that in actuality it isnt right what is happening, player power is off the scale fed by big businnes and greed and it no longer is a game because there no longer exists any kind of fair competition.

As a fans of an English club we could argue the situation in Spain is different as here there is a top 6 but even a cursory look will show you that our own league is just as infected by the market. As a fan of a "big club", consider the sales of players weve made recently and the burgeoning Man City.... we havent won the league for twenty years and in all likelihood unless something changes we probably wont win again until it all blows up.

The greed extends all the way up to FIFA, Qatar World cup anyone? This mad idea of Roigs' could easily apply to clubs chosing not to release players for the WC. IMO the clubs must grow some balls and stand up to this hyper inflationary nonsense. Wages are harming the good of the game and reducing the health of the leagues and they have to be brought under control. Jimmy hill was right to wrest control away from the clubs 50 years ago and I dont begrudge a player a rich living, but when it damages a culturally important activity it has to stop. Craig was bang on the wages are killing the game and it will not end nicely.
 
I love that every now and then we get someone on SCM that writes something from the heart that makes a good read.

My feeling is that I'd love the game to go back to the late 70s/ early 80s when all 24 clubs were in with a shout each season. Just doesn't seem there is any way back.
 
Good post, Molby.

I've had long discussion about this with my brother.
The three main suggestions that popped up were:

1. A draft like they have in the US. But this wouldn't work in a league system where teams get relegated.
Every team in the country would act as feeder club for the premier league clubs. So a draft system wouldn't work.

2. An FA regulated salary cap. I'm really to tired to explain but you get the gist of it. Problem is, would the premier league be able to attract top players from other countries? Doubtful.

3. The best solution IMO would be a salary cap but it should be regulated by UEFA. They should also add a spending cap to that.

Anyway looking at the top leagues in Europe, La Liga, Bundesliga, the premier league, Seria A and Ligue 1 (france).
Which teams have won the domestic league during the last 15 years?

La Liga: Real Madrid, Valencia, Barcelona and Depor.
Bundesliga: FC Bayern Munich, Kaiserslautern, Borussia Dortmund, SV Werder Bremen, VfB Stuttgart and Wolfsburg.
Seria A: Juventus, Milan, Lazio, Roma, Inter
Ligue 1: Monaco , Lens, Bordeaux, Nantes, Marseilles, Lyon and Lille
Premier League: Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea

The only thing I can deduce by this simple list is that the premier league and La Liga teams are the ones who are worse off.
I don't want to take anything away from Man U, I think they're dominance the last 20 years have been because they've invested in the right players. They haven't bought any title IMO.

Can't say the same about the Barca , Real and Chelsea though.
 
It is interesting to note that the two leagues, the Premiership and La Liga, while being the wealthiest are also, in terms of title winners, are the most uncompetitive.


However I do realise that this point may only be interesting because I have drink taken
 
IMO this is looking at the problem from the wrong end: wages are not the problem (if the problem is a lack of competitiveness), but rather the symptom of hugely inflated revenues, and the highly unequal distribution among the clubs. With more equal revenues more equal performance would inevitably follow. Now, we have this to some extent in the prem with collective tv rights - is that enough? Not in my view, but it's a damn site better than the Spanish situation, which i think is crazily short-termist: Real and Barca should recognise that without the other 18 teams there is no league, and nothing to sell.

As for how to equalise revenues? Not easy, obviously: the big clubs are powerful and would likely object to more regulations. But then, what can they do? Is there really an appetite for a breakaway European Super League? Unlikely. Examples of regulations:

1. Salary cap
2. Transfer spending cap, to fall within budgets of, say, the top 8 clubs... maybe £20m net a year?
3. Further tv revenue sharing
4. Sharing of CL revenues between ALL top flight clubs
5. Some sort of ticket price quota. eg cap of £30 for first 30k tickets, then £10 over and above

Just some ideas, not saying any one of them is actually practical. I do agree with the general theme that a little more intervention to level the playing field would be a good thing, though, definitely.
 
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46904.msg1400221#msg1400221 date=1316297630]
Good post, Molby.

I've had long discussion about this with my brother.
The three main suggestions that popped up were:

1. A draft like they have in the US. But this wouldn't work in a league system where teams get relegated.
Every team in the country would act as feeder club for the premier league clubs. So a draft system wouldn't work.

2. An FA regulated salary cap. I'm really to tired to explain but you get the gist of it. Problem is, would the premier league be able to attract top players from other countries? Doubtful.

3. The best solution IMO would be a salary cap but it should be regulated by UEFA. They should also add a spending cap to that.

Anyway looking at the top leagues in Europe, La Liga, Bundesliga, the premier league, Seria A and Ligue 1 (france).
Which teams have won the domestic league during the last 15 years?

La Liga: Real Madrid, Valencia, Barcelona and Depor.
Bundesliga: FC Bayern Munich, Kaiserslautern, Borussia Dortmund, SV Werder Bremen, VfB Stuttgart and Wolfsburg.
Seria A: Juventus, Milan, Lazio, Roma, Inter
Ligue 1: Monaco , Lens, Bordeaux, Nantes, Marseilles, Lyon and Lille
Premier League: Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea

The only thing I can deduce by this simple list is that the premier league and La Liga teams are the ones who are worse off.
I don't want to take anything away from Man U, I think they're dominance the last 20 years have been because they've invested in the right players. They haven't bought any title IMO.

Can't say the same about the Barca , Real and Chelsea though.
[/quote]

A wage cap would no doubt be illegal in fact all kinds of European wide legislation would be required but the financial fair play rules should be strict and enforced, rule 1, clubs must make a profit. Obviously ridiculous but at least it would wash out clubs being bought as trophies buy rich foriegners.

Secondly you could flip the league payments, 20th place earns the cash the 1st does and vice versa, it's a obvioulsy plainly mad idea but then so is spending a million pounds a day on a business which can never actually provide you with a return. The clubs need to make better ties with the players union, by no means do all the players live high on the hog, clubs also need UEFA and the individual FA's need to listen. If it continues as is it will lose its appeal as it becomes less and less competitive, bloated and corrupt with a small number of teams, chosen by whim, full of spoilt mega stars completely separated from the reality of the communities from whence they came. For all the game has "grown" it really does need to be bigger than that.
 
surely the idea of reversing the TV money is fatally flawed?! you might get a lot of extremely uncompetitive fixtures come the last 1/3 of the season!

i'm not altogether sold on the FFP regs, either: they can do a lot of good, especially for clubs like us, but encouraging competitiveness? utd have won 4 of the last 7 titles - how many would they have won if chelsea and abramovich never happened? 6? maybe even 7? now, that doesn't mean i think sugar daddies are a good way of increasing competition, but at least that's one of their side effects. for me, the FFP rules take one step in the right direction towards sustainability, but 2 steps back from a competitive league: they need to be combined with revenue-sharing/reducing, or caps on spending, as i described.
 
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46904.msg1400221#msg1400221 date=1316297630]
Can't say the same about the Barca , Real and Chelsea though.
[/quote]

What's the argument for Barca having bought their titles?

I'm interested given that you say Utd haven't.

Great post by Molby anyways. I love watching La Liga (Barca mostly) but these days it is a joke. It wasn't this bad a few years back but the problem now is that the league is broke and every other week another club is going into administration. It's clearly a situation that can't continue. The first step in La Liga is to address the TV rights money but it's not going to deal with the wider problem. The FFP rules are supposedly there to address that but with clubs like City and PSG spending like there is no tomorrow and carefully constructed sponsorship deals aimed at getting around future financial restrictions, I don't think they'll be solving any issues. Not in their first incarnation anyway.
 
Never said anything about Barca buying their "titles" maybe a title?
They do however have a tendency to stack a team with top players. Remember when Van Gaal was coaching them?
Didn't they buy like 7 or 8 top rated Dutch players?

This season they've stacked their team with Sanchez and Fabregas paying about 60 million Euros.

Around the time we won the CL they added Etoo, Ronaldinho, Deco, Giuly and Edmilson to their team, I think they won the league that year. Dunno if it's buying a league title, compared to what Chelsea did and what Man C are attempting to do, but I guess it's close.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=46904.msg1400239#msg1400239 date=1316302200]
surely the idea of reversing the TV money is fatally flawed?! you might get a lot of extremely uncompetitive fixtures come the last 1/3 of the season!

i'm not altogether sold on the FFP regs, either: they can do a lot of good, especially for clubs like us, but encouraging competitiveness? utd have won 4 of the last 7 titles - how many would they have won if chelsea and abramovich never happened? 6? maybe even 7? now, that doesn't mean i think sugar daddies are a good way of increasing competition, but at least that's one of their side effects. for me, the FFP rules take one step in the right direction towards sustainability, but 2 steps back from a competitive league: they need to be combined with revenue-sharing/reducing, or caps on spending, as i described.
[/quote]

It is difficult to say how many Man U would have won if Roman had not bought Chelsea. For sure they would have won more than 4. If Roman/ Sheik Mansour had not happened, who knows. Maybe we could have been competitive and won the league due to continuous presence in the Champions League. Or Arsenal could have retained Adebayor, Toure, Clichy, Nasri and built upon it.

When roman pushed up the bar, Man U were able to handle it and raise to the challenge due to their resources. Roman and now Sheikh have reduced the margin of error for Spurs, us and Arsenal. Without Roman maybe ManU would not have risen to the next level and the margin of error could have been reasonable for Rafa and Houllier.
 
How is that different to Utd filling their side with 20M players though?

In the last couple years they've been chucking money about rather needlessly I must admit. The Ibrahimovic deal was a disaster.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=46904.msg1400247#msg1400247 date=1316307314]
How is that different to Utd filling their side with 20M players though?

In the last couple years they've been chucking money about rather needlessly I must admit. The Ibrahimovic deal was a disaster.
[/quote]

Come to think of it, you're right about United.
 
The problem here is that the genie is already out of the bottle and now it looks like it will take an entire financial collapse within the game to put it back in. The seeds of this current malaise were sown when the old first division (led by non other than Man Utd) decided that the system of revenue sharing that had been in place throughout the football league was no longer acceptable to them and that the big clubs should receive a bigger slice of the cake, this gave birth to the bastard that is the Premier League. Europe followed suit and to one degree or another all the top leagues have lost their edge, with the slight exception of the Bundesliga but even they have caved in and allowed Bayern to operate on different rules to the rest of the league, how long it will remain competitive remains to be seen.

Spain has fallen the furthest in terms of competitiveness but its not alone, the Champions League is turning into a cartel and the financial fair play rules, while possibly well meaning will do to European competition what the Premier League did to the domestic game, basically enshrine the top teams as the only ones who will ever contest the title.

As a fan of a top team its a slightly contradictory situation to be in, we spend big relative to the 80% of the league below us but we cannot hope to compete financially with the guys at the top, we are like Arsenal running just to stand still. I dont see us winning the title this season or any season soon unless we find €100m a year to start throwing at players, and in that case are we any better than City Chelsea etc. I firmly believe that there are options there to bring in salary caps using legal work arounds but the will of the big clubs is not there and as long as that remains the case nothing will change.

Football now like all global billion dollar industries answers to only one force, not the fans, not the governing bodies but economics, only when the game has cannibalised itself to such an extent that people start to walk away will we start to see change. I hope the Spanish teams do revolt and put an end to the hypocrisy of sportsmanship and fair play in a competition that is stacked like a rigged deck, maybe then the other clubs around europe will take note and restore some balance to the game, otherwise its a slow death
 
[quote author=RedStar link=topic=46904.msg1400313#msg1400313 date=1316336310]
The problem here is that the genie is already out of the bottle and now it looks like it will take an entire financial collapse within the game to put it back in. The seeds of this current malaise were sown when the old first division (led by non other than Man Utd) decided that the system of revenue sharing that had been in place throughout the football league was no longer acceptable to them and that the big clubs should receive a bigger slice of the cake, this gave birth to the bastard that is the Premier League. Europe followed suit and to one degree or another all the top leagues have lost their edge, with the slight exception of the Bundesliga but even they have caved in and allowed Bayern to operate on different rules to the rest of the league, how long it will remain competitive remains to be seen.

Spain has fallen the furthest in terms of competitiveness but its not alone, the Champions League is turning into a cartel and the financial fair play rules, while possibly well meaning will do to European competition what the Premier League did to the domestic game, basically enshrine the top teams as the only ones who will ever contest the title.

As a fan of a top team its a slightly contradictory situation to be in, we spend big relative to the 80% of the league below us but we cannot hope to compete financially with the guys at the top, we are like Arsenal running just to stand still. I dont see us winning the title this season or any season soon unless we find €100m a year to start throwing at players, and in that case are we any better than City Chelsea etc. I firmly believe that there are options there to bring in salary caps using legal work arounds but the will of the big clubs is not there and as long as that remains the case nothing will change.

Football now like all global billion dollar industries answers to only one force, not the fans, not the governing bodies but economics, only when the game has cannibalised itself to such an extent that people start to walk away will we start to see change. I hope the Spanish teams do revolt and put an end to the hypocrisy of sportsmanship and fair play in a competition that is stacked like a rigged deck, maybe then the other clubs around europe will take note and restore some balance to the game, otherwise its a slow death
[/quote]

Excellent post, I couldnt agree more, who will pay to watch a slow death? The fans? 1000% ticket price increase in under 20 years. The sport will endure, its so engrained it cannot but endure however in its current form it will lose so much of what it can be. How can it continue to be the peoples sport when it excludes so many just because of the price of entry? What will it become in future? Nothing but a plaything for the rich from the owners down to the spectators a ghost of itself. In the rush for lucre it's lost sight of its roots and is weaker for it not stronger. I don't now what the solution is but as followers of the sport we shouldnt just ignore it.

In the end will we just have one undisputed European wide champion, fed by the other clubs, owned by some Oligarch, once a year the most lucrative feeder club will be given the chance to attend a ceremonial slaughter. Sky would wet itself with excitement.

Anyway fuck this.... im excited and shit scared about our whupping of or by Spurs.

C'mon the 'Pool!!
 
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