stop the 4-4-1-1 system
- Thread starter aquaman4
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And put who up front with Torres?
Agreed ... we need to go to a 4-4-2 or a 4-4-1-1 with the 1 being Yossi and the middle being Gerrard/Mascherano (until Aquilani is fit, which should be in about 2-4 months)
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=37877.msg1013225#msg1013225 date=1260728730]
And put who up front with Torres?
[/quote]
We've got nothing to really lose anymore, give Yossi that position ... and start giving Pacheco minutes there too.
And put who up front with Torres?
[/quote]
We've got nothing to really lose anymore, give Yossi that position ... and start giving Pacheco minutes there too.
Our tempo is slow because we have too many slow players who also move the ball (or hold it for too long)
Lucarse, Insua and Casper are the main culprits, although Kuyt and Riera are almost as bad
Lucarse, Insua and Casper are the main culprits, although Kuyt and Riera are almost as bad
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37877.msg1013281#msg1013281 date=1260731125]
Our tempo is slow because we have too many slow players who also move the ball (or hold it for too long)
Lucarse, Insua and Casper are the main culprits, although Kuyt and Riera are almost as bad
[/quote]We also play waaaaaaaaay to narrow, I lost count of how many free kicks we won all within the lines of the 18 yard box.
Wider, faster, better. As if Rafa will change it.
Our tempo is slow because we have too many slow players who also move the ball (or hold it for too long)
Lucarse, Insua and Casper are the main culprits, although Kuyt and Riera are almost as bad
[/quote]We also play waaaaaaaaay to narrow, I lost count of how many free kicks we won all within the lines of the 18 yard box.
Wider, faster, better. As if Rafa will change it.
I don't think that systems or tactics played any part in that defeat.
We ran ourselves ragged first half and tired badly. We allowed Arsenal the space we had denied them in the first half.
Following the first goal our heads dropped and there wasn't the energy or desire to mount a serious challenge.
That we were unable to work their goalkeeper in a whole half in front of the Kop is worrying.
I don't know how this will be changed, apart from us getting lucky. We had a strong team out today and it failed. We will be fighting fires all season I think.
We ran ourselves ragged first half and tired badly. We allowed Arsenal the space we had denied them in the first half.
Following the first goal our heads dropped and there wasn't the energy or desire to mount a serious challenge.
That we were unable to work their goalkeeper in a whole half in front of the Kop is worrying.
I don't know how this will be changed, apart from us getting lucky. We had a strong team out today and it failed. We will be fighting fires all season I think.
Torres surrounded by 4 defenders when he recieves the ball - Result of the formation. If we had another striker up there they would split and draw 1/2 of the defenders.
Torres picking up a ball 10 yards wide of the box - Result of the tactics. If we didn't have right wingers at left wing, midfielders in the hole and strikers at right wing, we may not have as many people getting out of position all the time so that when a ball is played upfield someone is there to meet it. It also might help if, now and again, a supposed attacking player didn't have to track back every single time the ball was played within the channel that their opposing player was in.
We're too narrow, we don't have enough pace and this system only works with pacy and skillful wide players (that actually stay frigging wide) supporting the attack (not marking a bloody man), we have 1 skillful wide player and that's it, not a tap of pace on the flanks. UTD don't play this system yet they manage to flood the box with 3-5 players more often than not. If we get somebody in the box it's usually 1 player (forgetting set pieces) meeting a ball, what good is that?
Even when the system does work there is no excuse for playing it at home, we used to be attack, attack, attack at Anfield, heck playing towards the kop used to be considered as good as a 1 goal head start. Now we have to put up with lackluster huff and puff BS while we shoot for goal 5 times (3 off target) in a match :🙂
Torres picking up a ball 10 yards wide of the box - Result of the tactics. If we didn't have right wingers at left wing, midfielders in the hole and strikers at right wing, we may not have as many people getting out of position all the time so that when a ball is played upfield someone is there to meet it. It also might help if, now and again, a supposed attacking player didn't have to track back every single time the ball was played within the channel that their opposing player was in.
We're too narrow, we don't have enough pace and this system only works with pacy and skillful wide players (that actually stay frigging wide) supporting the attack (not marking a bloody man), we have 1 skillful wide player and that's it, not a tap of pace on the flanks. UTD don't play this system yet they manage to flood the box with 3-5 players more often than not. If we get somebody in the box it's usually 1 player (forgetting set pieces) meeting a ball, what good is that?
Even when the system does work there is no excuse for playing it at home, we used to be attack, attack, attack at Anfield, heck playing towards the kop used to be considered as good as a 1 goal head start. Now we have to put up with lackluster huff and puff BS while we shoot for goal 5 times (3 off target) in a match :🙂
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37877.msg1013281#msg1013281 date=1260731125]
Our tempo is slow because we have too many slow players who also move the ball (or hold it for too long)
Lucarse, Insua and Casper are the main culprits, although Kuyt and Riera are almost as bad
[/quote]
Casper is slow compared to Kuyt?
Bloody hell mate, you really struggle to be honest about Dirk eh?
Our tempo is slow because we have too many slow players who also move the ball (or hold it for too long)
Lucarse, Insua and Casper are the main culprits, although Kuyt and Riera are almost as bad
[/quote]
Casper is slow compared to Kuyt?
Bloody hell mate, you really struggle to be honest about Dirk eh?
Yeah, Casper holds onto the ball too long, makes wrong choices and isn't good enough to be in our first team
That said, on a scale of 'not good enough to be in our first team' he's nowhere near the worst
That said, on a scale of 'not good enough to be in our first team' he's nowhere near the worst
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37877.msg1013317#msg1013317 date=1260735086]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37877.msg1013281#msg1013281 date=1260731125]
Our tempo is slow because we have too many slow players who also move the ball (or hold it for too long)
Lucarse, Insua and Casper are the main culprits, although Kuyt and Riera are almost as bad
[/quote]
Casper is slow compared to Kuyt?
Bloody hell mate, you really struggle to be honest about Dirk eh?
[/quote]Benayoun in the second half put in one of the weakest most pathetic effortless shite halves of football I have ever fucking seen.
In fact I don't think I've ever seen a more weak and surrendering performance from our whole team. It made me fucking ashamed to be red. Rafa or no they are a bunch of fucking losers. Pathetic
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37877.msg1013281#msg1013281 date=1260731125]
Our tempo is slow because we have too many slow players who also move the ball (or hold it for too long)
Lucarse, Insua and Casper are the main culprits, although Kuyt and Riera are almost as bad
[/quote]
Casper is slow compared to Kuyt?
Bloody hell mate, you really struggle to be honest about Dirk eh?
[/quote]Benayoun in the second half put in one of the weakest most pathetic effortless shite halves of football I have ever fucking seen.
In fact I don't think I've ever seen a more weak and surrendering performance from our whole team. It made me fucking ashamed to be red. Rafa or no they are a bunch of fucking losers. Pathetic
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37877.msg1013281#msg1013281 date=1260731125]
Our tempo is slow because we have too many slow players who also move the ball (or hold it for too long)
[/quote]
That's one of the first things you've said I've kinda agreed with in ages. It's not all about having slow players (Alonso was like fucking erosion), it's about the speed of the ball movement. Alonso always zipped it about, played the first time ball, and ensured Gerrard and Torres had time and space.
Our problem these days is that everything's too ponderous, unimaginative, and downright SLOW. The opposition's midfield four always have time to get behind Gerrard and deny him space, cos the ball takes too long in getting to him.
Our tempo is slow because we have too many slow players who also move the ball (or hold it for too long)
[/quote]
That's one of the first things you've said I've kinda agreed with in ages. It's not all about having slow players (Alonso was like fucking erosion), it's about the speed of the ball movement. Alonso always zipped it about, played the first time ball, and ensured Gerrard and Torres had time and space.
Our problem these days is that everything's too ponderous, unimaginative, and downright SLOW. The opposition's midfield four always have time to get behind Gerrard and deny him space, cos the ball takes too long in getting to him.
I have been saying we should drop this formation for a long long time.
As has been said though who do you then play up front with Torres?
The system is far too reliant on Torres and Gerrard both being on the park at the same time, and when they are, being at the top of their game.
If that does not happen it just does not work and limits us appallingly.
We just have to get a decent striker in next month.
Re Yossi, the left is absolutely the worst position you can play him. Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left and put Yossi on the right.
regards
As has been said though who do you then play up front with Torres?
The system is far too reliant on Torres and Gerrard both being on the park at the same time, and when they are, being at the top of their game.
If that does not happen it just does not work and limits us appallingly.
We just have to get a decent striker in next month.
Re Yossi, the left is absolutely the worst position you can play him. Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left and put Yossi on the right.
regards
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013540#msg1013540 date=1260746760]Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left
[/quote]
Heh, I was thinking along similar lines in the ratings thread - sad state of affairs.
Agree re: the formation needing changing as well.
[/quote]
Heh, I was thinking along similar lines in the ratings thread - sad state of affairs.
Agree re: the formation needing changing as well.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013540#msg1013540 date=1260746760]
I have been saying we should drop this formation for a long long time.
As has been said though who do you then play up front with Torres?
The system is far too reliant on Torres and Gerrard both being on the park at the same time, and when they are, being at the top of their game.
If that does not happen it just does not work and limits us appallingly.
We just have to get a decent striker in next month.
Re Yossi, the left is absolutely the worst position you can play him. Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left and put Yossi on the right.
regards
[/quote]
I don't really pay much attention to the 'system', as it interchnages and fluctuates wildly, but I wouldn't advocate throwing th toys out of the pram with the Gerrard and Torres partnership just yet. As others have noted, it was good enough last season, and I daresay having both of the two main protagonists out of the side for most of the year has qwelled it somewhat. Our issue is that there's a massive over-reliance on Gerrard and Torres to be our only creative attacking outlets. If they don't create something through a neat bit of inter-passing (whilst doing ti quickly and at high speed) then the move invariably breaks down.
We simply need beter players around them. We need greater options, to be able to change the point of attack, and threats coming from different areas. No system is going to work unless you've got quality players to make it happen.
I have been saying we should drop this formation for a long long time.
As has been said though who do you then play up front with Torres?
The system is far too reliant on Torres and Gerrard both being on the park at the same time, and when they are, being at the top of their game.
If that does not happen it just does not work and limits us appallingly.
We just have to get a decent striker in next month.
Re Yossi, the left is absolutely the worst position you can play him. Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left and put Yossi on the right.
regards
[/quote]
I don't really pay much attention to the 'system', as it interchnages and fluctuates wildly, but I wouldn't advocate throwing th toys out of the pram with the Gerrard and Torres partnership just yet. As others have noted, it was good enough last season, and I daresay having both of the two main protagonists out of the side for most of the year has qwelled it somewhat. Our issue is that there's a massive over-reliance on Gerrard and Torres to be our only creative attacking outlets. If they don't create something through a neat bit of inter-passing (whilst doing ti quickly and at high speed) then the move invariably breaks down.
We simply need beter players around them. We need greater options, to be able to change the point of attack, and threats coming from different areas. No system is going to work unless you've got quality players to make it happen.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37877.msg1013547#msg1013547 date=1260747019]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013540#msg1013540 date=1260746760]Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left
[/quote]
Heh, I was thinking along similar lines in the ratings thread - sad state of affairs.
[/quote]
The pace of today's game was significantly quicker than the midweek plodfest against the Italians in a nothing game guys. Dossena wouldn't have had the same space and time, nor would he have offered a similar performance. I'd be surprised if Benayoun started on the left more often than Riera from nwo on, although I suppose that depends on Rafa's thoughts on Riera these days really.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013540#msg1013540 date=1260746760]Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left
[/quote]
Heh, I was thinking along similar lines in the ratings thread - sad state of affairs.
[/quote]
The pace of today's game was significantly quicker than the midweek plodfest against the Italians in a nothing game guys. Dossena wouldn't have had the same space and time, nor would he have offered a similar performance. I'd be surprised if Benayoun started on the left more often than Riera from nwo on, although I suppose that depends on Rafa's thoughts on Riera these days really.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37877.msg1013550#msg1013550 date=1260747162]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013540#msg1013540 date=1260746760]
I have been saying we should drop this formation for a long long time.
As has been said though who do you then play up front with Torres?
The system is far too reliant on Torres and Gerrard both being on the park at the same time, and when they are, being at the top of their game.
If that does not happen it just does not work and limits us appallingly.
We just have to get a decent striker in next month.
Re Yossi, the left is absolutely the worst position you can play him. Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left and put Yossi on the right.
regards
[/quote]
I don't really pay much attention to the 'system', as it interchnages and fluctuates wildly, but I wouldn't advocate throwing th toys out of the pram with the Gerrard and Torres partnership just yet. As others have noted, it was good enough last season, and I daresay having both of the two main protagonists out of the side for most of the year has qwelled it somewhat. Our issue is that there's a massive over-reliance on Gerrard and Torres to be our only creative attacking outlets. If they don't create something through a neat bit of inter-passing (whilst doing ti quickly and at high speed) then the move invariably breaks down.
We simply need beter players around them. We need greater options, to be able to change the point of attack, and threats coming from different areas. No system is going to work unless you've got quality players to make it happen.
[/quote]
That's what I am saying Ryan, they both need to be there and on blob, and if the season thus far is remotely indicative of the rest of the campaign , it's too risky and we need something more conventional
regards
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013540#msg1013540 date=1260746760]
I have been saying we should drop this formation for a long long time.
As has been said though who do you then play up front with Torres?
The system is far too reliant on Torres and Gerrard both being on the park at the same time, and when they are, being at the top of their game.
If that does not happen it just does not work and limits us appallingly.
We just have to get a decent striker in next month.
Re Yossi, the left is absolutely the worst position you can play him. Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left and put Yossi on the right.
regards
[/quote]
I don't really pay much attention to the 'system', as it interchnages and fluctuates wildly, but I wouldn't advocate throwing th toys out of the pram with the Gerrard and Torres partnership just yet. As others have noted, it was good enough last season, and I daresay having both of the two main protagonists out of the side for most of the year has qwelled it somewhat. Our issue is that there's a massive over-reliance on Gerrard and Torres to be our only creative attacking outlets. If they don't create something through a neat bit of inter-passing (whilst doing ti quickly and at high speed) then the move invariably breaks down.
We simply need beter players around them. We need greater options, to be able to change the point of attack, and threats coming from different areas. No system is going to work unless you've got quality players to make it happen.
[/quote]
That's what I am saying Ryan, they both need to be there and on blob, and if the season thus far is remotely indicative of the rest of the campaign , it's too risky and we need something more conventional
regards
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013574#msg1013574 date=1260748986]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37877.msg1013550#msg1013550 date=1260747162]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013540#msg1013540 date=1260746760]
I have been saying we should drop this formation for a long long time.
As has been said though who do you then play up front with Torres?
The system is far too reliant on Torres and Gerrard both being on the park at the same time, and when they are, being at the top of their game.
If that does not happen it just does not work and limits us appallingly.
We just have to get a decent striker in next month.
Re Yossi, the left is absolutely the worst position you can play him. Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left and put Yossi on the right.
regards
[/quote]
I don't really pay much attention to the 'system', as it interchnages and fluctuates wildly, but I wouldn't advocate throwing th toys out of the pram with the Gerrard and Torres partnership just yet. As others have noted, it was good enough last season, and I daresay having both of the two main protagonists out of the side for most of the year has qwelled it somewhat. Our issue is that there's a massive over-reliance on Gerrard and Torres to be our only creative attacking outlets. If they don't create something through a neat bit of inter-passing (whilst doing ti quickly and at high speed) then the move invariably breaks down.
We simply need beter players around them. We need greater options, to be able to change the point of attack, and threats coming from different areas. No system is going to work unless you've got quality players to make it happen.
[/quote]
That's what I am saying Ryan, they both need to be there and on blob, and if the season thus far is remotely indicative of the rest of the campaign , it's too risky and we need something more conventional
regards
[/quote]
Heh, I was responding more to the theme of the thread than your post Vlad. Yours just seemed to be the last one there really.
But yes, I think we're (sorta) in agreement.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37877.msg1013550#msg1013550 date=1260747162]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013540#msg1013540 date=1260746760]
I have been saying we should drop this formation for a long long time.
As has been said though who do you then play up front with Torres?
The system is far too reliant on Torres and Gerrard both being on the park at the same time, and when they are, being at the top of their game.
If that does not happen it just does not work and limits us appallingly.
We just have to get a decent striker in next month.
Re Yossi, the left is absolutely the worst position you can play him. Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left and put Yossi on the right.
regards
[/quote]
I don't really pay much attention to the 'system', as it interchnages and fluctuates wildly, but I wouldn't advocate throwing th toys out of the pram with the Gerrard and Torres partnership just yet. As others have noted, it was good enough last season, and I daresay having both of the two main protagonists out of the side for most of the year has qwelled it somewhat. Our issue is that there's a massive over-reliance on Gerrard and Torres to be our only creative attacking outlets. If they don't create something through a neat bit of inter-passing (whilst doing ti quickly and at high speed) then the move invariably breaks down.
We simply need beter players around them. We need greater options, to be able to change the point of attack, and threats coming from different areas. No system is going to work unless you've got quality players to make it happen.
[/quote]
That's what I am saying Ryan, they both need to be there and on blob, and if the season thus far is remotely indicative of the rest of the campaign , it's too risky and we need something more conventional
regards
[/quote]
Heh, I was responding more to the theme of the thread than your post Vlad. Yours just seemed to be the last one there really.
But yes, I think we're (sorta) in agreement.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37877.msg1013577#msg1013577 date=1260749216]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013574#msg1013574 date=1260748986]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37877.msg1013550#msg1013550 date=1260747162]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013540#msg1013540 date=1260746760]
I have been saying we should drop this formation for a long long time.
As has been said though who do you then play up front with Torres?
The system is far too reliant on Torres and Gerrard both being on the park at the same time, and when they are, being at the top of their game.
If that does not happen it just does not work and limits us appallingly.
We just have to get a decent striker in next month.
Re Yossi, the left is absolutely the worst position you can play him. Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left and put Yossi on the right.
regards
[/quote]
I don't really pay much attention to the 'system', as it interchnages and fluctuates wildly, but I wouldn't advocate throwing th toys out of the pram with the Gerrard and Torres partnership just yet. As others have noted, it was good enough last season, and I daresay having both of the two main protagonists out of the side for most of the year has qwelled it somewhat. Our issue is that there's a massive over-reliance on Gerrard and Torres to be our only creative attacking outlets. If they don't create something through a neat bit of inter-passing (whilst doing ti quickly and at high speed) then the move invariably breaks down.
We simply need beter players around them. We need greater options, to be able to change the point of attack, and threats coming from different areas. No system is going to work unless you've got quality players to make it happen.
[/quote]
That's what I am saying Ryan, they both need to be there and on blob, and if the season thus far is remotely indicative of the rest of the campaign , it's too risky and we need something more conventional
regards
[/quote]
Heh, I was responding more to the theme of the thread than your post Vlad. Yours just seemed to be the last one there really.
But yes, I think we're (sorta) in agreement.
[/quote]
*rummages for bunting*
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013574#msg1013574 date=1260748986]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37877.msg1013550#msg1013550 date=1260747162]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37877.msg1013540#msg1013540 date=1260746760]
I have been saying we should drop this formation for a long long time.
As has been said though who do you then play up front with Torres?
The system is far too reliant on Torres and Gerrard both being on the park at the same time, and when they are, being at the top of their game.
If that does not happen it just does not work and limits us appallingly.
We just have to get a decent striker in next month.
Re Yossi, the left is absolutely the worst position you can play him. Bizarre as it sounds, and I never thought I would hear myself saying this, after his midweek performance, he should have stuck with Dosenna on the left and put Yossi on the right.
regards
[/quote]
I don't really pay much attention to the 'system', as it interchnages and fluctuates wildly, but I wouldn't advocate throwing th toys out of the pram with the Gerrard and Torres partnership just yet. As others have noted, it was good enough last season, and I daresay having both of the two main protagonists out of the side for most of the year has qwelled it somewhat. Our issue is that there's a massive over-reliance on Gerrard and Torres to be our only creative attacking outlets. If they don't create something through a neat bit of inter-passing (whilst doing ti quickly and at high speed) then the move invariably breaks down.
We simply need beter players around them. We need greater options, to be able to change the point of attack, and threats coming from different areas. No system is going to work unless you've got quality players to make it happen.
[/quote]
That's what I am saying Ryan, they both need to be there and on blob, and if the season thus far is remotely indicative of the rest of the campaign , it's too risky and we need something more conventional
regards
[/quote]
Heh, I was responding more to the theme of the thread than your post Vlad. Yours just seemed to be the last one there really.
But yes, I think we're (sorta) in agreement.
[/quote]
*rummages for bunting*
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