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Should Barca sell Messi as they rebuild?

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Well, I think no one in their right mind will argue that Messi is responsible for Barca's defense being shit. But there is at least a kernel of truth behind the phrase "Barcelona and Argentina have begun to fail in similar ways" in that once you have a player or two who don't do much off the ball, you have to compensate by having more water-carriers and ball-winners around, which then leads to more dependence on Messi to provide the creativity every time, which also makes it easier to stop him. Argentina bored everyone to death in the World Cup playing 3 defensive midfielders; Barca got walloped 8-2 playing a narrow defensive 4-4-2 with 2 CMs as wingers.

So even though I'm not sure I'm buying the entirety of Jonathan Wilson's argument – I'm conditioned never to bet against Messi – the phrase "he is not the solution to a glass jaw, just a finer grade of crystal" feels true to me. Beautifully written phrase too, it has to be said.

Great phrase but nobody buys a player like Messi to shore up a leaky defence so its something of a taut
I'd be much more scared if Mbappe went to city than Messi at 33. It's like United going all out for Sanchez just because (although clearly a better player). I don't believe he will improve them so perfectly when they are full of other gaps.

Maybe I'm just hoping, but he's 33, not 27. Let's hope he does a Torres

Torres was physically shot when he went to Chelsea, Messi is slowing down but hes still world class for probably a couple more seasons. City have other issues to deal with but this would still be a massive coup for them, hes arguably the greatest player of all time.
 
Forget the romance, Lionel Messi will not make Manchester City better

Jonathan Wilson

A possible Pep and Leo show at the Etihad is a mouthwatering prospect but a defensive rejig is more pressing for the club’s title ambitions than the addition of a strolling goalscoring genius

A fortnight ago, two key storylines emerged from Lisbon. There was the collapse of Barcelona and another premature Manchester City exit. From a narrative point of view, the reunion of Lionel Messi and Pep Guardiola makes perfect sense, a fusion of two current storylines, the rekindling of one of football’s great romances.

There they were, in 2011, Pep and Leo, the genius coach who had changed how the game is played and the genius player with the lightning feet and the extraordinary brain, a collaboration that had created arguably the greatest club side there has ever been. Who dreamed then, as they celebrated on the Wembley pitch after their second European title together, young and hopeful, kings of the world, that it would be a high they would spend the rest of their lives trying to replicate? But age, misfortune and entropy come to us all.

The next season saw José Mourinho’s revenge, domestically. An exhausted Guardiola was unable to respond. There was an incomprehensible Champions League exit to Chelsea, two games in which Barça did almost everything right but failed to convert chances and conceded three times on the counterattack. The template of doom was set.

Messi has won the Champions League once more, in 2015. But Guardiola remains stuck on two titles, behind Bob Paisley and Zinedine Zidane. Semioticians of managerial fashion perhaps saw in Guardiola’s decision to wear a long-sleeved T-shirt under a thin-knit cashmere jumper on a roasting night in Lisbon evidence of his anxiety, an additional layer of protection proving counterproductive as he sweated through both.

As football has become more about regaining than retaining the ball, legitimate questions have begun to be asked about whether Guardiola is any longer at the tactical forefront of the game. Reservations have begun to be expressed about Messi as well. Brilliant as he is – this was the 11th straight season in which he scored 25 or more league goals, quite apart from everything else he does – does he unbalance a side? Why is it that over the past four years or so, both Barcelona and Argentina have begun to fail in similar ways? And can a 33-year-old who runs so little really be worth the best part of £100m a year?

So how better to quell the doubts, what better way for City to complete the project of building Barcelona amid the dark satanic mills, than by reuniting them?

There had been some minor chafing in that final season at Barcelona, a sense that Messi was beginning to weary of Guardiola’s incessant demands, but there is nothing like absence and heartache to sweep away the minor irritations and remind us what we used to have. There could be no better finale to Messi’s club career than for him to complete this one last job, to rekindle the perfect dream he and Guardiola once shared. But for all the bells may be ringing out and calling them together, there is the awkward matter of reality. Football is not – yet – a Netflix series, still less a romcom.

Those quibbles about Messi and Guardiola may still be distant – both remain very near the top of their game – but they are real enough. In 2009-10, Messi regained the ball 2.1 times per game in La Liga. By 2011-12 that was down to 1.2. Since Guardiola left, that figure has never risen above 1tA comparison with City’s attacking right is revealing. The season before last, the role was shared between Riyad Mahrez, Bernardo Silva and Raheem Sterling, who averaged 1.4 regains per game (although Bernardo Silva was notably more effective in that regard than Mahrez). Last season, Mahrez played on the right 20 times in the league and averaged 1.3 regains per game, while Bernardo played there 11 times and averaged 1.8. Mahrez’s comparatively low figure is itself revealing, but it is still about two‑thirds more than current Messi.

Perhaps Messi could find new energy with a new challenge but Barcelona are the archetype of the press-and-possess side. If he is not closing people down there it is probably because he is no longer capable of doing so. To accommodate a figure who offers so little in terms of defensive work would require a significant rejig.

Assuming a player who has only ever played for one club is able to settle elsewhere, Messi would of course add to City’s attacking potency. He should be a guarantee of goals. He is arguably the greatest ever dribbler. He sees angles and options long before they reveal themselves to mortals. Whether he played as a false 9 or on the right, he would make City, as he would make any team in the world, a better attacking side. He has a capacity to shift the momentum of games.

But attacking isn’t City’s problem. They were top scorers in the Premier League last season. They scored four or more goals in 11 of their 38 league games. Their problem, increasingly, is without the ball. That is where Jürgen Klopp and the German school have found an advantage. Guardiola knows that, which is why the thought of Lyon’s counterattack prompted such a major tactical adjustment.

Messi will not make City better defensively; quite the reverse. In 2017, Barça went out of the Champions League having conceded four and three in individual knockout games; in 2018, after conceding three; in 2019; four; in 2020, eight. Managers changed, players changed, systems changed, Messi was constant: he is not the solution to a glass jaw, just a finer grade of crystal. This, anyway, is the first time Guardiola has ever entered a fifth season at a club as manager. Part of his brilliance is his intensity, his relentless drive for improvement and control. Even last summer there were rumblings from within the City camp that he was more demanding than ever before; it’s hard to imagine the disappointments of last season will have made him any more relaxed.

At a time when City’s priority must be resetting their counter-press and reducing their vulnerability to the break, the addition of a brilliant but idiosyncratic attacking talent, however dramatically satisfying, seems a needless complication.

I think it's easy enough to counter those arguments even if they are well put together. If you're going to put forward the well worn "Messi has too much power / doesn't run enough / unbalances the side" argument, I'd like to see it framed properly with the context of the teams Messi has found himself leading acknowledged.

Both Barcelona and Argentina have had ample opportunity to build solid sides that maximised the talents of one of the best ever (imo the best). They failed time after time.

Argentina have produced an incredible array of attacking talent over the last 10 years or so but in midfield and particularly in defence they've been pretty average. That and poor team selection / tactics has been the main reason their teams have been hard work. They should've won more for sure (would've won the WC had Higuiain not fluffed his lines on multiple occasions) but they handicapped themselves repeatedly.

Barcelona we've already talked about. They've also employed average coaches, wasted millions and ended up with a slow defence/midfield that repeatedly gets bypassed and caught out. Messi may not do much running these days but replace him with a pressing machine and things don't magically get better.

As for City, their attack actually could do with being improved. One of the issues they've had - in addition to their glass jaw - is that they get caught out when they've not been ruthless in front of goal (sound familiar?). And it's undeniable that some of the fear factor they had a couple seasons ago has been lost. Teams feel more able to come at them now. It's all connected.
 
La Liga have issued a statement supporting Barcelona's stance saying the release clause is still valid, and he can't leave on a free.
 
Yeah La Liga are fucked. No Ronaldo, no Neymar, now no Messi. They went down a weird galactico path which led to millions of kids around the world following players before teams, but now it's come back to haunt them as they have no stars. Most of the clubs are already on the verge of bankruptcy because they never sorted their media deals out as a bloc. They'll probs pay for mbappe to come and play for a different team every week.
 
I would turn the whole thing into a seniors league and roll out all the old stars again, Figo, Raul, Rivaldo, McManaman, yeah it'd do far better ratings than the premiership.
 
La Liga says Messi cannot leave Barcelona on a free transfer
In an official statement, Spain's top league confirmed that it is siding with Barcelona and declared that the only way Lionel Messi can leave Barcelona is if another club pays his €700m release clause. The Argentine did not show up to Barcelona's COVID-19 testing and preseason training, according to reports.

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So what now? A protracted ugly court case? City or anyone won't pay anything close to 700M, but would they pay say 200M? Would Barca prefer to have that money or an unhappy Messi?
 
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From what I can gather La Liga hold his registration and will now wait for Barca to be happy to release him before they hand it to anyone else. So yeah he's stuck there until there's a negotiation between City and Barca or a court case between Messi and Barca.
 
They'll just wait until January, then let him agree a free transfer to City for next summer. That might placate Messi enough to play well for the last few months for the fans or whatever, and nobody has to take a loss.
 
At 34 and a season going through the motions I really can't see the attraction. They need to get it done now.
 
At 34 and a season going through the motions I really can't see the attraction. They need to get it done now.

True, but if we step back from this for a minute, the whole idea of getting rid of their best player, leader and worldwide symbol in order to keep the players no one wants to buy, the random floating remains of the shipwrecks from years past under different short-term managers, and use them to "rebuild" under a mid-table journeyman manager is sheer madness. Which is why this is exactly what Bartomeu will probably want to do. I guess you can never underestimate the amount of damage that can be done by a small incompetent man in charge who is clinging to power. The first and the only priority for anyone who cares about the future of Barca is getting rid of Bartomeu and all his supporters on the board – that by itself won't be enough to keep Messi and stop the cycle of disastrous decision-making, but without it no positive steps forward will be even possible.
 
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Devils advocate with this dickhead for a minute. He brought Luis Enrique in and the year after Neymar left they won the CL. They've won the league four times in his six years. The problem is they had a load of generational talents who all got old at the same time, while Messi got Luis Enrique sacked. It's as much on Messi and the bunch of preening weirdos in the dressing room. Anyone would have said Bartemou was doing great until that all happened. In the couple of years since he's made some bad hires who've bought some overpriced players who don't fit, but he was put in a very difficult situation.

I'm glad he was, I hate the nobheads, but i can empathise. Doing great until Messi fucked it all up.
 
I think Messi didn't like the tactics, which had the team running at pace to press and counter. It must have made him feel inadequate having to rely on others to do his running and showing up his old age, despite them winning. Hence a new manager to revert to strolling around tactics where he once again looked like the most important player. Of course now he is upset at no winning. He's like a wife I imagine.
 
Oh I've got my years messed up by miles. But they still did all that over the time, while losing xavi, iniesta and all that lot.
 
BBC claiming he's decided to stay. Whinging little bastard, he changes his mind about moving clubs more than Steven Gerrard
 
BBC claiming he's decided to stay. Whinging little bastard, he changes his mind about moving clubs more than Steven Gerrard
I'm fucking thrilled. They still have very little worldwide appeal. In Czech you see predominantly Liverpool and Chelsea shirts (Chelsea are big because of Cech). You see a few United shirts and I've even seen one or two spurs/arsenal shirts.....but in 18 months I've yet to see a City shirt......signing Messi would be invaluable to them as they would gain worldwide appeal. I actually hate City now more than I hate United.....at least United justify a worldwide fanbase. I haven't read that back and I'm pissed so I hope it makes sense
 
He sounds pretty bitter towards Barca though, accusing them of clinging to the clause because he didnt give them notice before June 10th, and cites "during the awful pandemic" as reason to have been confused.
 
I'm fucking thrilled. They still have very little worldwide appeal. In Czech you see predominantly Liverpool and Chelsea shirts (Chelsea are big because of Cech). You see a few United shirts and I've even seen one or two spurs/arsenal shirts.....but in 18 months I've yet to see a City shirt......signing Messi would be invaluable to them as they would gain worldwide appeal. I actually hate City now more than I hate United.....at least United justify a worldwide fanbase. I haven't read that back and I'm pissed so I hope it makes sense
Yeah I'm made up he's not going to City, not just because he's still a great player but it would have legitimized City somewhat and fuck that! He's still a proper little drama queen though and half the problems Barca have are because he's used his influence over and over again and now it's all gone to shit for them. He's also quit international football more times than most people quit ciggies.
 
He sounds pretty bitter towards Barca though, accusing them of clinging to the clause because he didnt give them notice before June 10th, and cites "during the awful pandemic" as reason to have been confused.
The only one that he doesn't apportion blame to in this situation is himself which is telling.
 
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