Man United thoughts
- Thread starter LeTallecWiz
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Well done on demonstrating the art of how removing individual sentences from a broader argument cannot be used as evidence.
Kenny spent money on players that didn't perform from the off and the results were poor and you stuck the boot in.
Rodgers has spent money on players and the reults have been poor also and some have decided to stick the boot in.
It's the same just you think you know better than everyone else. You are laughably hypocritical on this one. You of all people should be the last one preaching patience to any fan after last year and your constant revolting treatment of the clubs greatest ever player and last manager to win us a title.
We've been through this before - I could type some stuff to logically refute your rambling, nonsensical argument but you'd come back with something equally inane. So I'll just stick to reminding you that you're a fucking moron.
you can admit defeat once in a while you know Ryan, why do you think so many were waiting for you to comment as they know your spouting shite in this case. But carry on with your easy out with the fucking moran line. We all know thats the last defence in an debate for a beaten man.
alright, I'll try...
I didn't want Dalglish out from day one, or abuse him either.
Nor did I after 6 months, or 12 months.
After 18 months I did cos I'd had enough of watching us play shite football, waste the most amount of money we've ever invested, and lose just about every week.
I'm happy to hear an argument for why we should have kept him if you'd like to proffer one?
Any comparison with Rodgers is a difficult one to make because they're operating under different circumstances. Rodgers has less money, has had to trim the exhorbitant wage bill, and was left with some dreadful players. That's unarguable, so you can't feasibly compare apples to apples.
He's done some things which in my mind are worth persevering with; bought well, bought young, got us playing better football, and has a record of succeeding in the Premier League in recent memory. He has also been with us for less than 6 months of football, so I'm prepared to give him time. Shoot me.
Now seeing as you'll inevitably ask, or fumble around in some vague attempt at asking anyway, he has done things incorrectly too; his original midfield plan.strategy isn't working, and needs revising, he hasn't done a great job with the defensive set-up at all in my view, and he can tinker with styles/approaches/tactics a little too much - especially considering he's more or less working with the same 10-15 players.
R
RedZeppelin III
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i'm not sure how you can say he's bought well just yet . His main signing Allen has been shocking for 90% of the season . Borini looked very average in his games before injury and i'm well aware it takes time to settle , he's young etc but he doesn't even look to have the basic skills or talent to really add much to the team long term . Assaidi never plays and it seems Rodger's bought a pure winger when he can't use them in his system . Sahin was bombed out after a few months. Strurridge remains to be seen although signs are he might be the most positive signing so far .
And so what if he bought young , that's only valid if they do well . Again you can't really give too much credit just yet .
Are we really playing better football ? I don't think it's any better than dalglish had us playing his first few months and even at the start of his last season . But i guess it's a personal preference thing , some might love our current football , i don't think it's anything special .
A record of succeeding in the premier league ? One season ?? Is that a decent record ? And even then it was 11th with swansea , a decent achievement but not exactly mind blowing or a record that made me think "fuck me i want this lad at liverpool , he's proven he's the man to get us back to the top" .
Look , long term rodgers may prove to be the fucking cream of the crop and his signings top class but right now everything is just theory , it will need to be backed up with results and achievements soon , goals have to be set and met .
Bought well? Name one of his signings that have so far performed to a consistently high standard. None.
All those claiming yesterday was the most abject performance at OT in living memory (see HT in the match thread for hysterical hissy-fits galore) clearly don't remember last year, when we pretty much did exactly the same thing, being completely overrun in midfield and playing like a bunch of frightened kittens. However things only got better in that game when Scholes went off for them and the much vilified Charlie Adam came on for us and put his foot on the ball. That was with about 15 minutes to go. Until then we were absolutely clueless in that game. At least BR did manage to change things at HT, even if he clearly started with the wrong team.
I'd also say that those bashing Kenny with the money spent argument should probably consider being quiet now though. I think I'm right in saying that BR already has a higher total net spend than Kenny. The success of those signings is yet to be gauged but some of them are not yet pulling up trees. They've had more time than some of Kenny's had before some of the same people now calling for patience were ripping them apart.
I'd also say that those bashing Kenny with the money spent argument should probably consider being quiet now though. I think I'm right in saying that BR already has a higher total net spend than Kenny. The success of those signings is yet to be gauged but some of them are not yet pulling up trees. They've had more time than some of Kenny's had before some of the same people now calling for patience were ripping them apart.
Here's what it all boils down to - what do we want?
Do we want to win the league?
Realistically, there are only 2 ways of taking a team that hasn't won the league that hasn't won the league in eons and makeing them champions.
Route 1, the fast one, involves putting together the most expensively assembled squad in history and paying a top coach, at the top of his game, a top salary. Call it the Man City of Chelsea way if you want, but the key ingredient is the owner with no care how much cash gets poured in to the money pit and no interest in re-couping it. It's a vanity project.
Route 2, the slow one, involves putting together a team of kids, well below their peak, develop and shape them in to a team that can challenge at the highest level whenthey reach their peak. To understand how long it takes to get this working right, we're currently getting some great youths through a system set up by Benitez, who left 2 1/2 seaons ago - and all these players are another 3 or 4 season away from hitting something approaching their prime.
All our previous managers' mistakes and failings are well documented - Rodgers was hired for a reason that none of the previous ones were hired for - and that is is ability to develop young players, which is his greatest asset. It's patently not going to happen in 6 months.
At which point did we stop giving managers time. Some will say Dalglish, but arguably he along with Roy should neveer have been given the time in the first place, as heartbreaking a thing that is to say about Dalglish. A club rebuilding excercise that should have taken a few seasons has been going on for 20 years now and our current owners aren't going to solve it quickly, because it requires more than a quick fix.
And that's it.... that's were we are.... we don't have ridiculous amounts of money to expidite a premier league title, so it's a slow road to glory - but one thing we absolutely need to do is give the current manager a chance. The key, as has been stated is if tehre are clear signs of regression - which their where last season under Dalglish. In six months has shown neither progression or regression - just something different that needs a little bit more time to determine.
Do we want to win the league?
Realistically, there are only 2 ways of taking a team that hasn't won the league that hasn't won the league in eons and makeing them champions.
Route 1, the fast one, involves putting together the most expensively assembled squad in history and paying a top coach, at the top of his game, a top salary. Call it the Man City of Chelsea way if you want, but the key ingredient is the owner with no care how much cash gets poured in to the money pit and no interest in re-couping it. It's a vanity project.
Route 2, the slow one, involves putting together a team of kids, well below their peak, develop and shape them in to a team that can challenge at the highest level whenthey reach their peak. To understand how long it takes to get this working right, we're currently getting some great youths through a system set up by Benitez, who left 2 1/2 seaons ago - and all these players are another 3 or 4 season away from hitting something approaching their prime.
All our previous managers' mistakes and failings are well documented - Rodgers was hired for a reason that none of the previous ones were hired for - and that is is ability to develop young players, which is his greatest asset. It's patently not going to happen in 6 months.
At which point did we stop giving managers time. Some will say Dalglish, but arguably he along with Roy should neveer have been given the time in the first place, as heartbreaking a thing that is to say about Dalglish. A club rebuilding excercise that should have taken a few seasons has been going on for 20 years now and our current owners aren't going to solve it quickly, because it requires more than a quick fix.
And that's it.... that's were we are.... we don't have ridiculous amounts of money to expidite a premier league title, so it's a slow road to glory - but one thing we absolutely need to do is give the current manager a chance. The key, as has been stated is if tehre are clear signs of regression - which their where last season under Dalglish. In six months has shown neither progression or regression - just something different that needs a little bit more time to determine.
Great post Stevie M. You're definitely not a Microwave.
Spot on Stevie.
very good post Stevie.
I just wish it was a more commonly held view.
That said the one thing I won't abide is the way the players performed after utd scored yesterday. No spirit or fight. That's not good enough.
The other thing we have to do is invest in players who can take the slack up so the likes of sterling aren't overplayed. Often you see utd sign a young player then he practically disappears & makes cameos for a while before breaking into the side & taking a while to find his feet.
It's always easier when you're winning, but nevertheless we need to do similar to avoid players getting burnt out or losing confidence.
I just wish it was a more commonly held view.
That said the one thing I won't abide is the way the players performed after utd scored yesterday. No spirit or fight. That's not good enough.
The other thing we have to do is invest in players who can take the slack up so the likes of sterling aren't overplayed. Often you see utd sign a young player then he practically disappears & makes cameos for a while before breaking into the side & taking a while to find his feet.
It's always easier when you're winning, but nevertheless we need to do similar to avoid players getting burnt out or losing confidence.
On a positve note - even Demento admitted we put them under real pressure in the second half and for the 1st 20 minutes in the first half they hardly had a chance. It was a timid performance in the 1st half not helped by the ball following an out of form Stirling, but do people really expect us to go to OT and boss them off the park? Of course the line up and formation was much better when BR changed things but I though Borini was excellent when he came on, really hassled their midfield and almost pulled off a wonder strike, and Sturridge far from being selfish linked up with Luis really well - considering he has hardly played for ages a really good start for us, and by the way if he had scored with that chance it would have been goal of the season - by the way some on here post you would think it was atap in
We were a load of bollocks, got it tactically wrong and many of the players aren't good enough.... But thinking that doesn't mean you want to sack everyone and start again.
I think there's only Macca who wants BR gone isn't it? So why all the posts defending someone who isn't really being attacked? He's in for as long as it takes as far as I can see.
I think there's only Macca who wants BR gone isn't it? So why all the posts defending someone who isn't really being attacked? He's in for as long as it takes as far as I can see.
Fair post mate - totally agree on the Sturridge "sitter" - he should have got it on target yes but hardly a tap-in as some have alluded to
Lucas and Allen haven't played well together at all, there's no real initiative grabbing from either of them, they're both plodders and despite the idea that it gives us a more solid base to work with, we seem to concede more with those two in the engine room.
Henderson has come on leaps and bounds, he gives us energy in midfield and Gerrard consequently becomes more effective by trusting him and allowing himself to probe around the final third more.
Whatever way we shape up the midfield, I think there's a strong case for having Gerrard and Henderson as the basis of it, the third one can be dependent on the opposition, but if Allen and Lucas don't start pulling their fingers out soon, one or both will rightfully find themselves as spectators, only from the bench instead.
Henderson has come on leaps and bounds, he gives us energy in midfield and Gerrard consequently becomes more effective by trusting him and allowing himself to probe around the final third more.
Whatever way we shape up the midfield, I think there's a strong case for having Gerrard and Henderson as the basis of it, the third one can be dependent on the opposition, but if Allen and Lucas don't start pulling their fingers out soon, one or both will rightfully find themselves as spectators, only from the bench instead.
It shows a certain degree of insecurity, I'd suggest. Some don't want to think what they fear they really think. The desperate attempt to decide my motives ("You're just saying that because..." - phew, that's better!) instead of just agreeing to differ is a sign of that.
Allen DID NOT play alongside Lucas. Gerrard did. It was fucking weird tactics by Rodgers.
Allen was charged with staying furtherest forward amongst the midfielders, primarily it seems, to harass Carrick. But nobody was supporting Allen in that regards (I would imagine this is where Gerrard was supposed to be supporting him), So Carrick would lay it off to someone free near him, run five yards, receive the ball again, this time with space having completely bypassed Allen, and then picked out whoever he wanted after that.
We've now seen Allen furthest up, alongside Lucas, and in Lucas's position. He's been shite in all but the first three weeks.
The position he plays is not the problem.
I didn't say they did, but the point stands, they and we haven't performed particularly well when they've figured together.
Agree re the position issue, people seem to think pushing him forward will suddenly turn him into this Xavi-esque player, it won't. You've either got those qualities or you haven't and it's fairly obvious he's lacking any real standout ability as a midfielder, other than being a bit of a steady player who's proving to be nothing more than a passenger and a liability we can't really afford to be playing.
Agree re the position issue, people seem to think pushing him forward will suddenly turn him into this Xavi-esque player, it won't. You've either got those qualities or you haven't and it's fairly obvious he's lacking any real standout ability as a midfielder, other than being a bit of a steady player who's proving to be nothing more than a passenger and a liability we can't really afford to be playing.
Yup.
I think people would happily agree to differ if you could explain why in similar situations last year with Daglish (be it changing a working formation to suit poor purchases, forcing the Suarez-Carroll partnership when it didn't work etc etc), you focused on the positive realizing it's going to take a few years (whoever the manager is) to build this team to where we all want it to be. With Rodgers, when he fails you come off as ecstatic with the same posting style Ryan and others had (which infuriated you last year), and when he does well you give him credit like Ryan & co gave Daglish credit ...
I reckon with managers, the vast majority are jammy bastards who ended up in the right place when jobs were going and were slightly more coherent than the rest of the dickheads around them. There's only a handful who actually make a difference that can be repeated over time or in multiple places.
The main thing is the players, thus the money, and the youth setup.
The main thing is the players, thus the money, and the youth setup.
I think I'd like to see you trace back to see what you can demand of any poster with whose views you disagree and demand they provide such a comparison every time they criticise in the here and now, instead of only me, particularly as I don't recall this 'it'll take a few years' line you're always huffing and puffing about. You just cannot stop thinking about Dalglish (forgotten about Clarke though). If I know a manager has a good track record, knows how to win things and is committed to doing so, that's clearly more of a justification for patience than with someone who has done nothing but talk. People with blind faith shouldn't be so intolerant of people without it. That's how all kinds of problems start. As for Ryan giving Dalglish credit, 'scuse me while I through up.
LIZARD ALERT
When situations arise, I do. As this is the topic I tend to debate with you, then that's why I talk about it with you. If it was with poster X and subject X, I'd be doing the exact same thing (and I did with the "We're happy Daglish got fired" lads).
Would you have trusted Shanks with the job in the 60s? He didn't really have a good track record etc ... I'm not saying Rodgers will even be 1% of what Shanks is but to want him out now is suicidal for our future. We cannot hire and fire managers like Chelsea. Give him a chance - 6 month isn't enough, and I don't really think 18 is either (yes, I wanted Daglish to stay because I thought he could build something). If Liverpool had hired Clarke (no track record, etc), I'd have given him the same patience and support as I'm giving Rodgers. That's just how I see it. The team needs to be built - now we may have unmovable roadblocks (the owners) but if it's doable, it will take time (a few years) to bear fruits.
That's pretty much what the people who study the game say.
T
the_khl
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This is very important point imo and one I've been airing on here a few times as well. No matter the talent in any player you can't and shouldn't expect the teenagers to be the ones turning the ship let alone stabilize it when in a storm.
Sterling looked well out of his depths yesterday but I believe more down to fatigue rather than lack of ability. He has shown tremendous signs of his talent already but still needs to be eased in gently. He hasn't been.
A good thing Borini is now back and that Sturridge has been brought in, as they will give him a much needed breather on the bench.
This raises a question of mine. Why did Rodgers buy this Assaidi chap when he doesn't even want to play him when he's got an obvious knackered teenager struggling to keep up his form as only other option? Seems well odd to me.
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