Is it?
I think the point is that one player does not determine where a team finishes in the league.
Lucas transfer was done and dusted
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Is it?
I think the point is that one player does not determine where a team finishes in the league.
Lucas really is the marmite of players. Love him or hate him it seems.
I haven't got a problem criticising a player when he plays badly or praising someone when they do well (look at my past posts regarding Moreno for proof) but criticising someone when they are doing their job well seems nuts.
As far as getting a better player for his position , can anyone tell me which position we couldn't get a better player for because none of our players are anywhere near the best in the country in their position never mind the the world. Appreciate what you've got until you get something better.
I haven't got a problem criticising a player when he plays badly or praising someone when they do well (look at my past posts regarding Moreno for proof) but criticising someone when they are doing their job well seems nuts.
As far as getting a better player for his position , can anyone tell me which position we couldn't get a better player for because none of our players are anywhere near the best in the country in their position never mind the the world. Appreciate what you've got until you get something better.
Fuck off with this shit.
Clyne's the best RB in the country IMO, but I get where you're coming from. However, I don't agree it's that simple. With some of our players one can see potential for improvement and that improvement could be enough for them to be part of a title-winning team, but Lucas isn't one of them. He is the best DM we've got and we'll need him as long as that remains the case, but he's also the only one we've got, so that's not really saying a whole lot.
Exactly. It's obviously an outrageous claim to make.
Pretty much.
We should always look to improve the squad. If someone who is better than whoever we have in the squad becomes available of course we should buy him.
He might be the only one we've got but that doesn't mean we haven't tried plenty of players in that position in the last few years with very little success. Allen hasn't been good enough, Can is nowhere near ready yet, Gerrard did well passing wise but his defensive contribution was negligible or even negligent at times. Henderson hasn't shown he can play there and Rossiter may have potential but his inexperience and injury troubles have hindered him so far. Milner hasn't played there consistently for us and the way he picks up yellow cards maybe that's for the best.
As far as us getting towards a title winning team then we are a lot of money, half a team and a good few years away from that regardless.
Sorry but I don't think the comparison with others who've tried and failed is really relevant to the question whether Lucas himself is good enough. DM is a pivotal position in the side and, while Lucas was never as bad as his most extreme critics said, neither do I rate him as good enough to fill that slot in a side which is gunning for the title. Either way the question isn't dependent on what other players have or haven't been able to produce.
It's true that we're some way off challenging for the title yet, but that's all the more reason to improve where we need to, and IMO we need to at DM.
It's true that we're some way off challenging for the title yet, but that's all the more reason to improve where we need to, and IMO we need to at DM.
There are so many player that fall into that category, even among title winners.
Making Lucas out as the one standing between us and a title win is an outrageous claim.
We've had players who have been twice as good as Lucas in that DM position and it hasn't generated any league titles.
Ah yes. That fabulous league which is so strong he was apparently a barn-storming box-to-box midfielder and managed to win their Golden Ball award.
That's the sort of league where Joe Allen might actually resemble Xavi.
The Brazilian league might not be as strong as ours but the two times we played Brazilian teams in the world club cup we've got beat twice, and Chelsea got beat when they played in it. I'd hate to see how good the English league was if we exported hundreds of our best players each year.
I'm not saying we shouldn't be looking to do better than Lucas at all (or any other player for that matter). I even said pretty much that earlier in the thread. The relevance of mentioning all the other players we've tried in that position lately is to show how hard it is to be a success there. You've got the technical ability of Gerrard, the Athletic prowess of Henderson and Milner, Can and Rossiters potential and whatever qualities Joe Allen has (?) and none of them have been as consistently decent as Lucas. If only the rest of the positions in the team were consistently decent we'd be much higher in the table.
Getting an upgrade is fine but why don't we sort out the parts of the team that aren't contributing first. Our creativity is woeful at the moment and has been for a while and the goal scoring from midfield has almost completely dried up but some people (not saying you) blame all that on a lad who gives 100 per cent every game and is a calming influence on the rest of the team whilst doing his job of restricting the opposition.
Couldn't have said it better. Seriously couldn't. Summed up my thoughts perfectly. That's why I keep saying that looking for a Lucas replacement shouldn't be our first priority.
You always seem to be on a crusade to defend Lucas and create situations and debates that are unnecessary. No one is saying Lucas is standing between us and a title win. Some are under the impression that having players of his standard as a first team regular won't springboard us towards a title. Perhaps we need to set our standards a little higher. You also seem to agree with that sentiment.
I don't think that logic can be applied fairly here. There is a massive talent gap between Gerrard and Lucas. If Gerrard was surrounded by more players of his standard and ability then perhaps we would have won more titles. That is not Lucas' fault and no implied that.
You even went to the bother of listing players who've won the league until they got 'Gerrarded' in some bizarro defense of Lucas. I'm suspicious of your original point as you seemed to piggy back the point Gerry fleshed out for you.
I don't think 'The Defend Lucas Crusade' is necessary. He has plenty of supporters including myself. He deserves praise for the good performances he has put in of late and I hope he thrives under Klopp until we see fit to upgrade on him. A lot of poster here (including yourself) feel we could upgrade on him and think we should. So why not leave it at that
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A fair bit of rewriting history there. Gerrard I'll give you but none of those other players had more than a very occasional game at DM - Rodgers doesn't like setting up that way, and rarely did it unless he was trying to accommodate Gerrard in the team. As for Lucas being "consistently decent", that applies to maybe the last half-dozen games. If the stick he's taken goes too far at times, his defenders don't help either by overstating his qualities on the other side of the debate.
Is replacing Lucas the most immediate priority? Perhaps not, but at the VERY least we need an additional option in that position, and he needs to be better than Lucas if we want to progress. Without that we'll fail to make the most of whatever other improvements we end up making.
I think it might be because during whatever period of resurgence we had in the last 10 years, Lucas was not a regular starter and he has been an automatic starter in most of the time we were shit. I am not saying there is a cause and effect relationship between Lucas starting and us being crap but there definitely is a correlation. Maybe that could be a reason?
It's not a crusade it's about creating balance. A player that has arguably been one of our best player these past few games is being brought up time and time again as our weak link. He's being blamed for everything from us lacking creativity to us not winning games.
No one is saying that he's the one standing between us and a title?
It's been implied tons of times.
My post about Gerrard was basically a way to show how crazy the claims people are making about Lucas are.
It wasn't meant to be taken serious.
I could have used other examples. Who else has been a regular for a long period during the last 20 years, without a league title? Are they at fault for us not winning the league?
People go on about how we won't amount to nothing more than mediocrity with Lucas in the side, so I draw a comparison to the league draught we've had when Gerrard has played and as usual the cavalry is brought out.
Why are we asking our DM to be more creative when our offensive midfielders and strikers aren't doing it?
Isn't it asking too much from Lucas?
No other player in our squad suffers the same type of scrutiny habitually like Lucas.
People get away with saying some crazy stuff like "who's the worst player with more than 200 games for Liverpool". So when I ask who's the worst player with over 400 games with Liverpool people get pissed off.
Is that fair?
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I'm not arguing with the need to upgrade,replace or offer additional options to Lucas and i haven't at any time. Surely describing him as consistently decent is hardly overstating his qualities is it? It's not like I said he'd been superb or brilliant because he hasn't but he has just quietly got on with the job and contributed to performances rather than been a liability.
Maybe I'm being unclear when as to why i mention the other players who have played in the holding or defensive midfield role for brief spells. The reason they have only been brief spells is because none of the them apart from some aspects of Gerrard's time have been any bloody good at it.
Rodgers defensive shortcomings probably had the biggest influence on him losing the confidence of the fans and probably players which ended up costing him his job so maybe him not wanting to set up that way as a fatal flaw for him.
Rodgers tried everyone and their Auntie in that position (or the equivalent of that position in his formations) in his time with us and he had to keep coming back to a player who he clearly didn't want (dropped and tried to sell him multiple times) as no one else gave us even the supposedly modest contribution that Lucas gave us.
Klopp has been here 5 minutes and already seems to have identified Lucas as a player he can trust. That might well change when he brings some players in or we get more players back from injury but at the moment he's in the team on merit.
This is the part that people tend to forget.
an automatic starter in most of the time we were shit? i can't agree with that
I don't think he is being 'blamed' but people would like a better player if possible in such an important position. You'd trade him in for a upgrade too. A lot of people are probably also frustrated that we've got to a level where he is our best option in there.
The cavalry (about two people was it?) spoke up as it's not really fair on Gerrard. He dragged us towards the top as best he could. As I said earlier we would have won leagues if he could have surrounded ourselves with players of a similar ilk to him.
Every player is scrutinised. Lovren can't fart without us laughing at him. Every extra touch Lallana takes without passing it is counted and used against him. Mingolet is always under scrutiny as is Sturridge of late. Lucas might seem to suffer from a lot of negative posts as he's been here for about 8 years. We are well used to his strengths and weaknesses by now. His presence has worn thin with a lot of posters.
I think you have this arseways anyway. You seem to arrive into a Lucas thread asking for him to be praised. (he often deserves it btw). You basically invite praise on his behalf. Others will come in to provide balance and feel its unnecessary to pile on too much praise onto him as he's only doing his job etc. Others are being overly harsh on him but we can all agree on the fact that we could and probably should do better than him.
That was Ross playing Jeopardy for comedic value in a match thread. You pissed off people by embarking on your crusade to defend Lucas and brought Carragher (is he the player who played 400 games?) of all people into it.
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One person makes an exageration, so does another, big argument, in the end everyone realises they agreed all the time...Round and round in circles...
At least throw a fucking punch you bunch of pussies.
At least throw a fucking punch you bunch of pussies.
Are we talking about Lucas?
I really want him to be sold just so all this false preaching can stop.
What the fuck?
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