Lucas - Silly fouls thread

[Dahuge]

Someone name me a team that has been successful and everyone of the players has been class.

Lucas does a job that is assigned to him by the manager, not just this one but several previous ones. If you don't like the job don't blame Lucas. Yes he makes silly fouls, but he does so trying to help the TEAM...

Let's jib him off so we can play 3 gerrards or 3 Alonso or 3 Allens and see where we get.

It's about balance in the team and each player making a contribution to the team in a specific area, he does this as well as he can and al our previous managers must be happy with it as he is still playing for us. Are there better players than him, yes without question, but because he doesn't have the silky skills or score lots of goals is no reason to slate his ability or what he brings to the TEAM.

 

[OLD_Lewy]

Honestly at the level he's playing at, the basics shouldn't be praised, they should be expected.

Im not asking him to maraud forward like some kind of deranged Yorkshire terrier, just for him to contribute more in attack. He gets past the halfway line and freezes. It'd be nice if he contributed every now and then.

2-3 goals in all competitions a season would be nice.

his role is to play infront of the back four though, and mainly just inbetween and ahead of the CBs, when we attack our fullbacks bomb forward meaning lucs has to fall back. It's not his job to be too involved in the attack, his job is to cover for the fullbacks, recieve the ball and play a simple pass ahead.

He's (generally) pretty good at his role and its an important one for the way we play

 

[Fabio]

I agree he's decent at what he does. But he's just average.

Whether there is a dearth in DM world wide I don't know, but he's just so meh it's unreal.

 

[Dahuge]

I agree he's decent at what he does. But he's just average.

Whether there is a dearth in DM world wide I don't know, but he's just so meh it's unreal.

But you need these type of players, the unassuming players who just do stuff and things for the better of the team. Allowing your 'star' player to play with the freedom they require.

 

[Halmeister]

He doesn't have to be a superstar, we're just asking for a bit more from him. He's nowhere near as good as some people make out. He's useful, but ideally we'd want somebody better in there. I certainly wanted us to sign somebody as competition for him. We should have tried to get Capoue.

 

[OLD_Lewy]

he's just incosinstant, he's been immense for us at times, I still remember that man city game when yaya was bombing forward and lucas ran from behind and just muscled him off the ball, all of a sudden we were attacking

 

[Squiggles]

This is a thread about one supposed weakness of his game, not his overall performances for the last 6 years. So stop having the same, old, tired debate, because, trust me, you're all boring the tits off everyone.

 

[Halmeister]

Boring the tits off you maybe, we're having a discussion and you're the only one saying otherwise. Don't like it, don't read it.

 

[OLD_Lewy]

yeah to be fair all these lucas threads are a bit wank and repetetive, some people are always going to rate him while others wont, i still think when he leaves he'll be remembered as a very valuable player

 

[OLD_Lewy]

i will say he does tend to give away fouls in dangerous areas, but so did mascherano and he seems very highly rated

 

[Halmeister]

he's just incosinstant, he's been immense for us at times, I still remember that man city game when yaya was bombing forward and lucas ran from behind and just muscled him off the ball, all of a sudden we were attacking

He was immense that game. But those days are the exception rather than the norm. There was a period, before his injury, when it looked like he could improve to that level consistently, but it looks like he may have reverted to type since. Maybe he just needs a good run to get back into his stride now, but some of his decision making can be awful, resulting in those silly free kicks in and around our box.

 

[Dahuge]

He doesn't have to be a superstar, we're just asking for a bit more from him. He's nowhere near as good as some people make out. He's useful, but ideally we'd want somebody better in there. I certainly wanted us to sign somebody as competition for him. We should have tried to get Capoue.

I agree, I would want someone better the problem is\was do other areas require work first? I think yes, defence both centrally and flanks that has now partially been done, do we need more attacking firepower and creativity, has that been done, well sort of. We have a whole host of other issues before we get to Lucas.

I agree also that we should want more from him especially attacking wise, but surely that should be laid at the managers door not the players. We, as fans, criticise players for not doing as the should or being gung ho, or Hollywood balls or whatever yet Lucas does his job and gets grief for not bombing forward....

 

[Halmeister]

I agree, I would want someone better the problem is\was do other areas require work first? I think yes, defence both centrally and flanks that has now partially been done, do we need more attacking firepower and creativity, has that been done, well sort of. We have a whole host of other issues before we get to Lucas.

I agree also that we should want more from him especially attacking wise, but surely that should be laid at the managers door not the players. We, as fans, criticise players for not doing as the should or being gung ho, or Hollywood balls or whatever yet Lucas does his job and gets grief for not bombing forward....

Yeah in fairness, and I think those areas have been sorted now. A very good summer would have seen us bring in competition for him, though, instead of a good one.

I don't mind the role he plays and how he does it. In fact I think it's one of the most important, and most difficult, roles in football. I just want him to be better at it.

 

[mark1975]

Someone name me a team that has been successful and everyone of the players has been class.

Lucas does a job that is assigned to him by the manager, not just this one but several previous ones. If you don't like the job don't blame Lucas. Yes he makes silly fouls, but he does so trying to help the TEAM...

Let's jib him off so we can play 3 gerrards or 3 Alonso or 3 Allens and see where we get.

It's about balance in the team and each player making a contribution to the team in a specific area, he does this as well as he can and al our previous managers must be happy with it as he is still playing for us. Are there better players than him, yes without question, but because he doesn't have the silky skills or score lots of goals is no reason to slate his ability or what he brings to the TEAM.

But this is missing the point. Some people on here think he's better footballer than he is, we all know you can't have a team of Gerrard's, don't teach us to suck eggs FFS, this onemanupship from the likes of Ryan, professing to be the only person on the forum to see his qualities is just bollocks. He thinks a few stats equate to him being right about him being somehow better than he's actually proven to be. The fact of the matter is he's a steady Eddie who's quietly effective, there are better players out there and no amount of pigeonholing him or pointing to the Ronnie Whelan's of the World is going to get away from the fact that by and large, throughout his Liverpool career, he's been a fairly mediocre player, relatively effective as a water-carrier/play breaker, but ultimately inconsequential as anything else.

Back in the day he was excused because he was actually an attacker being forced into an alien role, now he's a defensive midfielder who's non-existent attacking qualities are by the by, because, you know, that's just defensive midfielders for yer.

The point being, there are probably players who can do that job AND offer a little bit more. I don't think that's wrong to say, you can afford to have players like Lucas in your squad, but it's not a week-in, week-out necessity, it's like the anti-luxury player.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

But this is missing the point. Some people on here think he's better footballer than he is, we all know you can't have a team of Gerrard's, don't teach us to suck eggs FFS, this onemanupship from the likes of Ryan, professing to be the only person on the forum to see his qualities is just bollocks. He thinks a few stats equate to him being right about him being somehow better than he's actually proven to be. The fact of the matter is he's a steady Eddie who's quietly effective, there are better players out there and no amount of pigeonholing him or pointing to the Ronnie Whelan's of the World is going to get away from the fact that by and large, throughout his Liverpool career, he's been a fairly mediocre player, relatively effective as a water-carrier/play breaker, but ultimately inconsequential as anything else.

The point being, there are probably players who can do that job AND offer a little bit more. I don't think that's wrong to say, you can afford to have players like Lucas in your squad, but it's not a week-in, week-out necessity, it's like the anti-luxury player.

Hey! He's not the only one that sees it.

 

[Squiggles]

Boring the tits off you maybe, we're having a discussion and you're the only one saying otherwise. Don't like it, don't read it.

When you all post you're boring crap in the right threads, I'll know to avoid it.

 

[Halmeister]

When you all post you're boring crap in the right threads, I'll know to avoid it.

*your

 

[6TimesaRed]

I agree with @Dahuge

Look at UTD's title winning sides.. Yes they have had world class players but also full of average players... and that's been the case for years...

Lucas is nothing special.. but he does his job and 9 times out of 10 he does it effectively.. The stats prove we are a better team with him in the side...

 

[Modo]

Remember the Spearing is better than Lucas threads or how people were so quick to defend Downing?

Here's a guy who's actually doing his job but still gets flack for it.

 

[keniget]

Remember the Spearing is better than Lucas threads or how people were so quick to defend Downing?

Here's a guy who's actually doing his job but still gets flack for it.

Well, I guess some people thought Downing was doing his job too.

 

[Halmeister]

Remember the Spearing is better than Lucas threads or how people were so quick to defend Downing?

Here's a guy who's actually doing his job but still gets flack for it.

To what level, though? He's decent, but could and should be looking to improve. There are lots of areas for improvement in his game.

 

[juniormember]

Well, I guess some people thought Downing was doing his job too.

Downing's job as an attacking forward was to get goals and assists. He certainly wasn't doing that.

 

[Dahuge]

But this is missing the point. Some people on here think he's better footballer than he is, we all know you can't have a team of Gerrard's, don't teach us to suck eggs FFS, this onemanupship from the likes of Ryan, professing to be the only person on the forum to see his qualities is just bollocks. He thinks a few stats equate to him being right about him being somehow better than he's actually proven to be. The fact of the matter is he's a steady Eddie who's quietly effective, there are better players out there and no amount of pigeonholing him or pointing to the Ronnie Whelan's of the World is going to get away from the fact that by and large, throughout his Liverpool career, he's been a fairly mediocre player, relatively effective as a water-carrier/play breaker, but ultimately inconsequential as anything else.

Back in the day he was excused because he was actually an attacker being forced into an alien role, now he's a defensive midfielder who's non-existent attacking qualities are by the by, because, you know, that's just defensive midfielders for yer.

The point being, there are probably players who can do that job AND offer a little bit more. I don't think that's wrong to say, you can afford to have players like Lucas in your squad, but it's not a week-in, week-out necessity, it's like the anti-luxury player.

I agree, the problem that a lot of people on here think footballers are either shite or great and there is no in between. He is a decent footballer, do we need better, of course we do, and hopefully we will start to increase the quality in these areas.

Personally I don't think Lucas is as bad as people make him out to be nor do I think he is as good as people make out. He does a job nothing more, my point is that maybe he is being held back to a degree. He will never be a Gerrard or anyone like that but he maybe has it in him to do more on the attacking side of things but will any manager allow it?

 

[MaBigTip]

He's looking very inconsistent so far this season. There have been some truly masterful interceptions and good forward passing followed by the complete opposite 10 minutes later. If he can play at his top level with some degree of consistency, the most important trait for a DM or any player not capable of utter magic, then he probably doesn't need to be replaced.

 

[Whirly]

He's an average to slightly above average anchor I would say, but the issue for me is how little he contributes to every other part of the game.

Look at Enrique. He's a pretty average FB if you look at it in a roundabout way, but breaking it down I would say he's an above average defender, average attacker, and below average passer. You need these sorts of players to fill a squad out, but you know that for every few long balls Enrique boots, one is going to result in a goal, like Suarez at Newcastle. He rarely gets beaten when defending, and is typically very involved in the attack, success notwithstanding.

Lucas might be an average to slightly above average defender and passer, but he is a non-entity in the attack. Add in that his passing typically involves very little creativity, and it's certainly something we can improve on. Even Carragher last season used to play more creative balls than Lucas last season, and was a bigger attacking threat. When you reach that threshold, it's definitely an issue worth discussing.

 

[juniormember]

Lucas shouldn't be criticized for anything to do with attacks,, particularly using fullbacks (instructed to attack) to make some kind of comparison.
He's instructed to do a specific job. How good he is at that is up for debate. What shouldn't be up for debate is how many chances he creates for his team. That's the job of the two other midfielders and the inverted wingers, as well as the wide fullbacks.
He creates chances by stopping an attack and giving a simple ball to players around them, players that get paid to then make a super pass behind the defence on the counter or spraying the ball around to unmarked players in great positions.
I still get very irritated by the stupid fouls he gives away, but the extreme criticism about stuff we shouldn't be expecting of him in the first place is ridiculous.

 

[Whirly]

I don't quite understand that argument. It's not like Rodgers is going to threaten to take his toys away if he attempts to participate in the attack, or make a supporting run. Our CBs do it a couple times a game, and that tendency hasn't decreased any despite all of the other attackers we have on the pitch.

It's a bit silly to say Rodgers instructs Lucas not to do anything for the attack, but doesn't say the same to our central defenders. Lucas's lack of support to the attack isn't a matter of choice, it's a matter of ability.

 

[mark1975]

Lucas shouldn't be criticized for anything to do with attacks,, particularly using fullbacks (instructed to attack) to make some kind of comparison.

Why not? And it wasn't specifically fullbacks I was referring to. Modo criticised Carragher for years for a lack of ability technically and an inability to contribute to us going forward. But it's ok for Lucas to, you know, sit there and not contribute to us going forward. At least Carragher excelled as a defensive player, his defensive game was excellent and consistent, which made up for any flaws in his overall game, could you say the same about Lucas? What does he excel in? Has he been consistent since he joined us? As far as I can see, he's been steady, he enjoyed a spell of a few months where he was on top of his game, and he's spent a significant amount of time here looking relatively average.

Like I said, it's contradictory. It's ok to not expect more for him, but the same poster championing him is the first to blast defenders who don't offer more than the ability to defend.

 

[juniormember]

Why not? And it wasn't specifically fullbacks I was referring to. Modo criticised Carragher for years for a lack of ability technically and an inability to contribute to us going forward. But it's ok for Lucas to, you know, sit there and not contribute to us going forward. At least Carragher excelled as a defensive player, his defensive game was excellent and consistent, which made up for any flaws in his overall game, could you say the same about Lucas? What does he excel in? Has he been consistent since he joined us? As far as I can see, he's been steady, he enjoyed a spell of a few months where he was on top of his game, and he's spent a significant amount of time here looking relatively average.

Like I said, it's contradictory. It's ok to not expect more for him, but the same poster championing him is the first to blast defenders who don't offer more than the ability to defend.

You're agreeing with me regarding Carra. He did what was asked of him without having the ability to be a threat from set pieces or open play, but excelled at his defensive duties.
Criticize Lucas all you like regarding his qualities as a player told to sit deep in a defensive role, as I said I think he can certainly do better there. But let's not start criticizing him about what he doesn't offer in attack. That's exactly what you've told Modo what not to do.
The fullback point was in response to the post above mine. Not directed at you.

 

[mark1975]

You're agreeing with me regarding Carra. He did what was asked of him without having the ability to be a threat from set pieces or open play, but excelled at his defensive duties.
Criticize Lucas all you like regarding his qualities as a player told to sit deep in a defensive role, as I said I think he can certainly do better there. But let's not start criticizing him about what he doesn't offer in attack. That's exactly what you've told Modo what not to do.
The fullback point was in response to the post above mine. Not directed at you.

I'm not criticising it as such, I just think the hypocrisy is baffling. First and foremost I've always said a defenders job is to defend, what I was saying is that it's ok if you excel at that particular role as it compensates for any shortcomings, I don't think Lucas does excel defensively, he does a job - if his all round play was better than it might be a different story, but as it is..