Liverpool vs Arsenal (Anfield : Sunday 16.00)

[mark1975]

What I meant was, fucking throw him a bone. He's not that bad.

He's not, he's playing pretty well at the minute too, but he can be one dimensional and the flaws in his game, ie pointless fouls, failing to track runs, are still there.That's why he's not a "great" DM, but he's a converted DM, so that's understandable.

I think the point that JJ and others are eluding to is that he hasn't had much competition down the years in that role (Spearing, Can), so suggesting that his quality has seen him stick it out, isn't the complete picture.

You're right in many respects, he's lasted this long for a reason, largely a brilliant attitude, being a likeable dressing room figure and being a tidy no nonsense player, on the other hand, he's also stayed the course because we've failed to add quality in that area.

Fair play to him though, he's performing really well at the minute and for me, is one of the first names on the team sheet, we just needed that extra bit of steel, experience and composure in there. Same with Toure at centre half. If that earns him a short-term contract stay, then I'm not complaining. He's a good lad and cares about the club and the shirt.

 

[Gary25]

Sakho definitely starting, apparently.

 

[Modo]

He's not, he's playing pretty well at the minute too, but he can be one dimensional and the flaws in his game, ie pointless fouls, failing to track runs, are still there.That's why he's not a "great" DM, but he's a converted DM, so that's understandable.

I think the point that JJ and others are eluding to is that he hasn't had much competition down the years in that role (Spearing, Can), so suggesting that his quality has seen him stick it out, isn't the complete picture.

You're right in many respects, he's lasted this long for a reason, largely a brilliant attitude, being a likeable dressing room figure and being a tidy no nonsense player, on the other hand, he's also stayed the course because we've failed to add quality in that area.

Fair play to him though, he's performing really well at the minute and for me, is one of the first names on the team sheet, we just needed that extra bit of steel, experience and composure in there. Same with Toure at centre half. If that earns him a short-term contract stay, then I'm not complaining. He's a good lad and cares about the club and the shirt.

I get what your saying, but I can't fully agree with the competition bit. We bought Allen. Now that was while we also had Henderson and Gerrard in the team.
I think Allen was meant to replace Lucas. We also bought Poulsen and Charlie Adam.
Now it's either the managers being shite at finding players suitable for the DM position or he's just ousted everyone of them.

 

[mark1975]

I get what your saying, but I can't fully agree with the competition bit. We bought Allen. Now that was while we also had Henderson and Gerrard in the team.
I think Allen was meant to replace Lucas. We also bought Poulsen and Charlie Adam.
Now it's either the managers being shite at finding players suitable for the DM position or he's just ousted everyone of them.

I think the point is that we will always reach a place where a specialised DM is required. And that's what he is now, but in the years since Mascherano left, he's the only one we've had, unless anyone wants include that Danish yard dog or newly arrived Can. Yes, he's had competition within the set up, where other midfielders like Henderson and Allen have jumped ahead of him and we've taken off the defensive shackles, but there's always been a time (as you've mentioned enough in your criticism of Gerrard), where we've needed a "proper" defender in there who's more natural to the role. Adam wasn't really a DM for the record, a deep lying playmaker, but about as much a DM as Henderson or Allen. Everyone he's "outed" have either been shite or a completely different type of midfielder. He's not had much competition from a specialised defensive midfielder.

Like I said though, at the minute, it's irrelevant, he's the only one we've got, we've needed to tighten up and he's in good form, I think with him playing in this sort of form, it's a lesser worry than say, a good goalkeeper or a goalscorer.

 

[Woland]

I reckon I could put up with him being completely shit at football if he didn't give away the exact same stupid foul several times every match.

 

[keniget]

When Lucas arrived we had Alonso and Maschareno. Now we're talking about him competing against and outlasting the likes of Poulsen and Adam.

How depressing.

 

[Buddha]

Twitterings about Lucas to Inter on loan in January.
Eh?

 

[Judge Jules]

If that means we're in for a better DM I'd be OK with it - the point about Lucas is not that he's "that bad" but that he's not that good either. As mark also says above, though, Lucas is currently our best DM option, and I would not be happy or impressed if we don't have *anybody* left to perform that role adequately.

 

[Frogfish]

D Lovren Groin Strain 21st Dec Late Fit Test
M Balotelli Groin/Pelvis Injury 21st Dec
G Johnson Groin Strain 17th Jan 15
D Sturridge Hip/Thigh Injury 10th Jan 15
Suso Groin/Pelvis Injury 1st Jan 15
J Flanagan Knee Injury no return date


A Oxlade-Chamberlain Groin/Pelvis Injury 21st Dec Late Fit Test
A Ramsey Hamstring Injury 28th Dec
L Koscielny Calf Muscle Strain 28th Dec
N Monreal Ankle/Foot Injury 21st Dec Late Fit Test
T Rosicky Hip/Thigh Injury 26th Dec
M Arteta Calf Muscle Strain 26th Dec
J Wilshere Ankle/Foot Injury Feb 15
T Walcott Groin/Pelvis Injury 21st Dec 14 Late Fit Test

I'd certainly be a lot happier without Walcott and Ox running at our FBs/WBs. Please fail !

 

[Judge Jules]

If it's any consolation the word yesterday was apparently that Walcott has only a slim chance of being fit in time.

 

[Frogfish]

If it's any consolation the word yesterday was apparently that Walcott has only a slim chance of being fit in time.

Half way there.

 

[keniget]

Seems like it's 3-4-3 again. Hope we have our fullbacks in the wingback positions this time at least.

 

[Buddha]

If that means we're in for a better DM I'd be OK with it - the point about Lucas is not that he's "that bad" but that he's not that good either. As mark also says above, though, Lucas is currently our best DM option, and I would not be happy or impressed if we don't have *anybody* left to perform that role adequately.

I'd want him to stay on and provide some competition/cover for the prospective new DM. Else we'll be fucked again if he takes time to settle / gets injured.

 

[tony]

I get what your saying, but I can't fully agree with the competition bit. We bought Allen. Now that was while we also had Henderson and Gerrard in the team.
I think Allen was meant to replace Lucas. We also bought Poulsen and Charlie Adam.
Now it's either the managers being shite at finding players suitable for the DM position or he's just ousted everyone of them.

To be fair its the former rather than the latter

 

[Lippy]

I reckon I could put up with him being completely shit at football if he didn't give away the exact same stupid foul several times every match.

Yet we concede far less goals and are harder to break down when he's in the side. He's protected that piss awful defence which is something every other midfielder has failed to do this year. He's not the most skilful or cultured of footy players no but he's been effective in that role whereas the likes of Gerrard have been leaving holes big enough to sail an aircraft carrier through. Unless we get a decent DM in, then letting him go is a mistake and will sound the death knell on Rodgers career as LFC manager as it'll be that much of a fuck up.

 

[Judge Jules]

I'd want him to stay on and provide some competition/cover for the prospective new DM. Else we'll be fucked again if he takes time to settle / gets injured.

Good point.

 

[Wizardry]

I don't know why people still get caught up with Lucas. He's got a reputation with a number that he can't pass forwards or incisively despite every heat map and passing chart showing the opposite. Others claim he gives away the same fouls constantly, every game despite the stats showing differently. Who cares? If they haven't got the message yet they're not going to get it. Every manager from Rafa to Rodgers has picked him and he's been an important part of two title challenging teams.

As much as I liked Rodgers taking the approach of getting Sterling to lead the line and putting more movement around him I can honestly see us being caned without remorse by Arsenal if we line up the same way. Too much room down the flanks and they won't waste the sort of chances that were spurned in the Carling Cup.

With that said, one goal early from Sterling or Lallana could really put the wind up Arsenal. Regardless of where we all sit on the table right now they won't have happy memories of their last visit to Anfield. I hope we give them a chance to worry about that cause I don't think they've got the fortitude to deal with it.

 

[Judge Jules]

OK, I'll bite, Wizardry old pal. "Every heat map and passing chart"? Really? And every manager from Rafa to Rodgers has also dropped him. As it happens I've dissented from the wilder extremes of criticism which he's sometimes shipped on here, but I suspect they've been provoked at least in part by the small band of posters marching determinedly to the other extreme. For the record: IMO he's not a bad player, but we can and should do better.

 

[Lippy]

OK, I'll bite, Wizardry old pal. "Every heat map and passing chart"? Really? And every manager from Rafa to Rodgers has also dropped him. As it happens I've dissented from the wilder extremes of criticism which he's sometimes shipped on here, but I suspect they've been provoked at least in part by the small band of posters marching determinedly to the other extreme. For the record: IMO he's not a bad player, but we can and should do better.

The last sentence says it all. In the absence of something better in that role I think we should keep hold

 

[Wizardry]

OK, I'll bite, Wizardry old pal. "Every heat map and passing chart"? Really? And every manager from Rafa to Rodgers has also dropped him. As it happens I've dissented from the wilder extremes of criticism which he's sometimes shipped on here, but I suspect they've been provoked at least in part by the small band of posters marching determinedly to the other extreme. For the record: IMO he's not a bad player, but we can and should do better.

🙂

Let's put it this way; he's proven himself, over a much longer period of time, a better asset to this club than Henderson, Allen, Enrique, Moreno, Ming, Balotelli etc. The old adage that was used for at least two years of "he can't be a part of any team wanting to challenge for the title" has been proven incorrect twice, under two managers playing two completely different styles of football.


There are 5 or 6 players in the top leagues at the moment in his position that I'd take ahead of him. He's not the second coming and we could certainly do better and, at some point, I'm sure we will. But the have a look at our performances this season alone with him and without him and tell me he hasn't make a markedly positive difference.

I've said it for a long time; people think Brazillian midfielder and are looking for a Coutinho or Ronaldinho type player with the ability to ghost past defenders or score outrageous goals. When they don't get that they claim he's rubbish while ignoring his excellent first touch. He doesn't do multiple step-overs so he can't pass forward - ignoring the fact he can pass with either foot on a first touch or second.

Technically he's very good. He's had some terrible games for us - no argument. But it takes a long time for people to get over a first impression and, in some cases, it never seems to happen. If Lucas had come in and made the impact he's made this season during his first season he'd be a favourite on these boards. The reality is he came here as a kid from another country and took two seasons to really learn his trade in a new position. Unfortunately, for a lot of people, those first two seasons set their perception of him and nothing he does will change it IMO.

 

[Fabio]

Not to be picky, but was he essential in either title challenges?

Gerrard from deep was last season, and the other time is was mascher and alonso

He's a good squaddie. No more.

 

[Modo]

Not to be picky, but was he essential in either title challenges?

Gerrard from deep was last season, and the other time is was mascher and alonso

He's a good squaddie. No more.

I wonder who started basically every game before Christmas that season. The fact that we were top of the league as well before playing City and Chelsea doesn't really matter at all, does it?

 

[keniget]

I wonder who started basically every game before Christmas that season. The fact that we were top of the league as well before playing City and Chelsea doesn't really matter at all, does it?

Fabio's point still stands.

 

[Athens]

Ah deary me. Not another thread unnecessarily fouled by a Lucas discussion.

 

[Modo]

Fabio's point still stands.

sure it does

 

[Lippy]

Not to be picky, but was he essential in either title challenges?

Gerrard from deep was last season, and the other time is was mascher and alonso

He's a good squaddie. No more.

Not about title challenges at the moment it's about simply stopping our midfield been waltzed through like it has been for the majority of games he's not played. We need to tighten up a bit at the moment. Ok leaking goals if you're scoring them but we're not.

 

[cloggypop]

Ah deary me. Not another thread unnecessarily fouled by a Lucas discussion.

 

[Fabio]

Not about title challenges at the moment it's about simply stopping our midfield been waltzed through like it has been for the majority of games he's not played. We need to tighten up a bit at the moment. Ok leaking goals if you're scoring them but we're not.

Oh you misunderstand me

He desperately needs to play for us this season

My point was just about wizardrys assertion that he was important in 2 title challenging sides

I'd contest he wasnt

 

[Lippy]

Oh you misunderstand me

He desperately needs to play for us this season

My point was just about wizardrys assertion that he was important in 2 title challenging sides

I'd contest he wasnt

Oh right, no I'd agree with that. End of day we need much better players in midfield, there's not one stand out player there anymore apart from Lallana who's hardly stood out but I'd have playing all the time.

 

[mark1975]

I think Wiz makes some valid points about his passing, he does pass it forwards with precision, through tight spots. He's great at the 20 yard ball between congested areas to feed someone who's there, ready to build the play. He's been doing it loads in the last few games, he's not as negative in that respect as say, Allen or even Hendo at times. The latter two look positive when they receive the ball, but too often revert to the easy pass, Lucas builds from deep and it often goes unnoticed. Ok, so he's no Xabi Alonso, but he does play incisive passes that start attacks alot more than people give him credit for.