Lionel Messi(ah)
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[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=44075.msg1279522#msg1279522 date=1297004199]
but to be fair that doesn't really prove Best was a better player than Cruyuff, does it? The only thing it proves clearly is that Best was self indulgent beyond doubt in every possible way...
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it proves that on that pitch with 22 players, george best decides what he wants to do, does it, and the other 21 have to live with that because there was fuck all they could do about it.
let me put it another way. would arbeloa ever ever own best the way he owned messi?
but to be fair that doesn't really prove Best was a better player than Cruyuff, does it? The only thing it proves clearly is that Best was self indulgent beyond doubt in every possible way...
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it proves that on that pitch with 22 players, george best decides what he wants to do, does it, and the other 21 have to live with that because there was fuck all they could do about it.
let me put it another way. would arbeloa ever ever own best the way he owned messi?
when you watch messi beat a defender, or even maradona, they way it's done is that they use their ability and skill to put the defender off balance.
but it seems to me with george best its not so much about him putting the defender off balance, rather the defender becomes irrelavent and its just a case of him using his own inhuman sense of balance to weave past one player after the next. i've never seen anyone else with that kind of ability
but it seems to me with george best its not so much about him putting the defender off balance, rather the defender becomes irrelavent and its just a case of him using his own inhuman sense of balance to weave past one player after the next. i've never seen anyone else with that kind of ability
[quote author=themn link=topic=44075.msg1279529#msg1279529 date=1297004458]
Because Pele had a habit of "disappearing" in World Cup tournaments, oh etc...
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Yes, Pele really had to lead a team like Maradona .. I mean, think about all those average one name losers he had to play with. Oh ... please come again.
Because Pele had a habit of "disappearing" in World Cup tournaments, oh etc...
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Yes, Pele really had to lead a team like Maradona .. I mean, think about all those average one name losers he had to play with. Oh ... please come again.
Lionel Messi certainly has the potential to be the best ever. However, he has never had to lead his team anywhere because he is just one superstar in a team full of them. He may rightly be considered one of the greats when he retired but he'll be in good company.
Maradona led Napoli from nothing and scaled the heights. What he has single handedly done for Argentina is win them the WC.
Garrincha was more skilful than Pele. However, Pele is the one Brazil relied on to get goals and subsequently win WC. He done much the same with Santos like Maradona with Napoli. Pele was a beast physically and a goal getter.
Let's not ignore the contribution a certain Ronaldo made to the game of football. He should be mentioned in the same breath!
Maradona led Napoli from nothing and scaled the heights. What he has single handedly done for Argentina is win them the WC.
Garrincha was more skilful than Pele. However, Pele is the one Brazil relied on to get goals and subsequently win WC. He done much the same with Santos like Maradona with Napoli. Pele was a beast physically and a goal getter.
Let's not ignore the contribution a certain Ronaldo made to the game of football. He should be mentioned in the same breath!
*grabs ladder,climbs up, high fives sunny ala comolli*
Zizou for me mainly cos I saw him play. I saw maradonna screaming into a camera with his crackhead eyes popping out of his head in world cup USA other than that I didn't see eusabio, best, pele etc
I saw zizou play that game like a master.. Those who said ronaldinho could have challenged him unfortunately
Zizou for me mainly cos I saw him play. I saw maradonna screaming into a camera with his crackhead eyes popping out of his head in world cup USA other than that I didn't see eusabio, best, pele etc
I saw zizou play that game like a master.. Those who said ronaldinho could have challenged him unfortunately
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=44075.msg1279570#msg1279570 date=1297005898]
Lionel Messi certainly has the potential to be the best ever. However, he has never had to lead his team anywhere because he is just one superstar in a team full of them. He may rightly be considered one of the greats when he retired but he'll be in good company.
Maradona led Napoli from nothing and scaled the heights. What he has single handedly done for Argentina is win them the WC.
Garrincha was more skilful than Pele. However, Pele is the one Brazil relied on to get goals and subsequently win WC. He done much the same with Santos like Maradona with Napoli. Pele was a beast physically and a goal getter.
Let's not ignore the contribution a certain Ronaldo made to the game of football. He should be mentioned in the same breath!
[/quote]
Agree with this part entirely. I think George mentioned that plenty of people think Garrincha was better than Pele and, in terms of skill, I think he was. But Pele scored goals and what made him great was the fact it made zero difference who was trying to stop him - he still kept scoring. He got kicked constantly but he handed out as much as he ever copped as well - unlike Charlton who would withold a handshake from those who tried to kick him out of the game Pele just returned the favour with interest. He could have handled himself in any league against any team and still scored goals; that's why he's up there with the best in history.
As for Best - I think Dante is largely correct. What stands out about Messi is his speed and agility with the ball but I'll say right now his agility and balance are nothing compared to what Best would display. The thing about Best is he never looked a great athlete, didn't look anything special but his balance was unbelievable. He was a freak. I've talked before about the time he was playing against Leeds. No other player - past or present - could have done what Best did and those who saw him do it ........... you just knew you were in the presence of something remarkable.
Lionel Messi certainly has the potential to be the best ever. However, he has never had to lead his team anywhere because he is just one superstar in a team full of them. He may rightly be considered one of the greats when he retired but he'll be in good company.
Maradona led Napoli from nothing and scaled the heights. What he has single handedly done for Argentina is win them the WC.
Garrincha was more skilful than Pele. However, Pele is the one Brazil relied on to get goals and subsequently win WC. He done much the same with Santos like Maradona with Napoli. Pele was a beast physically and a goal getter.
Let's not ignore the contribution a certain Ronaldo made to the game of football. He should be mentioned in the same breath!
[/quote]
Agree with this part entirely. I think George mentioned that plenty of people think Garrincha was better than Pele and, in terms of skill, I think he was. But Pele scored goals and what made him great was the fact it made zero difference who was trying to stop him - he still kept scoring. He got kicked constantly but he handed out as much as he ever copped as well - unlike Charlton who would withold a handshake from those who tried to kick him out of the game Pele just returned the favour with interest. He could have handled himself in any league against any team and still scored goals; that's why he's up there with the best in history.
As for Best - I think Dante is largely correct. What stands out about Messi is his speed and agility with the ball but I'll say right now his agility and balance are nothing compared to what Best would display. The thing about Best is he never looked a great athlete, didn't look anything special but his balance was unbelievable. He was a freak. I've talked before about the time he was playing against Leeds. No other player - past or present - could have done what Best did and those who saw him do it ........... you just knew you were in the presence of something remarkable.
Best was the greatest I've ever seen. He was quicker than Pele (whom I also saw live), better in the air and with his right foot than Maradona, and at least as good at the trickery as either. Where Best was streets ahead of them, and of others mentioned such as Cruyff or Ronaldo, was in covering what in rugby are known as "the hard yards". If he wasn't getting the ball further forward he'd come back and hunt it down, and he could tackle as hard as most of the defenders he was up against. It was said of Best while he was still playing that he might well move back into midfield and possibly even into the sweeper position as he got older and, had he kept it together in his life generally, Best would have made a success of both. One can't say that of any of the other admittedly great players named above.
[quote author=themn link=topic=44075.msg1279574#msg1279574 date=1297006044]
I didn't say that did I ?
You're suggesting that Pele should be discounted because of the league he played in.
I'm suggesting that he was a superstar amongst stars in World Cup tournaments.
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I'm suggesting dominating a league that's more corrupt than Serie A by a few light years doesn't say as much as people make it out it does - and he was a great int'l performer, but had some of the best players EVER side by side with him ... Maradona led teams by himself, be it int'l or club and was always targeted ... Those two are the best imo, well maybe Best should be included, but Maradona is above both.
I didn't say that did I ?
You're suggesting that Pele should be discounted because of the league he played in.
I'm suggesting that he was a superstar amongst stars in World Cup tournaments.
[/quote]
I'm suggesting dominating a league that's more corrupt than Serie A by a few light years doesn't say as much as people make it out it does - and he was a great int'l performer, but had some of the best players EVER side by side with him ... Maradona led teams by himself, be it int'l or club and was always targeted ... Those two are the best imo, well maybe Best should be included, but Maradona is above both.
well fuck you man. i love you.
fuck arguments. Peace to you my brother from another mother.
LIVERPOOL!!!! 1-0!!!
fuck arguments. Peace to you my brother from another mother.
LIVERPOOL!!!! 1-0!!!
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=44075.msg1279525#msg1279525 date=1297004235]
I dunno ... I just don't think a player who dominates a corrupt league can not be equaled by a man who did what Diego did in his time (Pele never had to 'lead' Brazil or a Napoli anywhere) ... And Messi still isn't there but probably will be.
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is correct.
I dunno ... I just don't think a player who dominates a corrupt league can not be equaled by a man who did what Diego did in his time (Pele never had to 'lead' Brazil or a Napoli anywhere) ... And Messi still isn't there but probably will be.
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is correct.
[quote author=Mr_V link=topic=44075.msg1279481#msg1279481 date=1297001586]
[quote author=IGotALuvlyBunchOfCoconuts link=topic=44075.msg1279240#msg1279240 date=1296971223]
18 games 21 goals 14 assists in La Liga this season.
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Incorrect... 19 games 24 goals...
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I wasn't incorrect I just wanted up to date.
[quote author=IGotALuvlyBunchOfCoconuts link=topic=44075.msg1279240#msg1279240 date=1296971223]
18 games 21 goals 14 assists in La Liga this season.
[/quote]
Incorrect... 19 games 24 goals...
[/quote]
I wasn't incorrect I just wanted up to date.
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=44075.msg1279493#msg1279493 date=1297003106]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=44075.msg1279491#msg1279491 date=1297002837]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=44075.msg1279484#msg1279484 date=1297001848]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=44075.msg1279288#msg1279288 date=1296985444]
Maradona is 2nd to none.
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Please - he's not even the best player from Argentina with or without Messi getting a World Cup medal.
Pele is the number one South American but the greatest was certainly George Best.
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Who's better than him from Argentina?
And you cannot really use Pele, a player who played in Brazil his entire career in a league that makes Serie A look 100% clean.
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di stefano?
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by all accounts of those who saw him play di stefano is massively underrated when it comes to discussions about the best ever - however, as mentioned by other Diego is the greatest (for now!)
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=44075.msg1279491#msg1279491 date=1297002837]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=44075.msg1279484#msg1279484 date=1297001848]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=44075.msg1279288#msg1279288 date=1296985444]
Maradona is 2nd to none.
[/quote]
Please - he's not even the best player from Argentina with or without Messi getting a World Cup medal.
Pele is the number one South American but the greatest was certainly George Best.
[/quote]
Who's better than him from Argentina?
And you cannot really use Pele, a player who played in Brazil his entire career in a league that makes Serie A look 100% clean.
[/quote]
di stefano?
[/quote]
by all accounts of those who saw him play di stefano is massively underrated when it comes to discussions about the best ever - however, as mentioned by other Diego is the greatest (for now!)
[quote author=themn link=topic=44075.msg1280091#msg1280091 date=1297017818]
Lovepeaceandchickengreasetoyourudeboi.
[/quote]
I wasn't rude ... I was just au naturel.
Lovepeaceandchickengreasetoyourudeboi.
[/quote]
I wasn't rude ... I was just au naturel.
The Ronaldo that was mentioned in this thread was the fat one, wasn't it ? I hope so.
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=44075.msg1279542#msg1279542 date=1297005137]
when you watch messi beat a defender, or even maradona, they way it's done is that they use their ability and skill to put the defender off balance.
but it seems to me with george best its not so much about him putting the defender off balance, rather the defender becomes irrelavent and its just a case of him using his own inhuman sense of balance to weave past one player after the next. i've never seen anyone else with that kind of ability
[/quote]
That's very bizarre because that's exactly how Messi beats players. Not with skill.
when you watch messi beat a defender, or even maradona, they way it's done is that they use their ability and skill to put the defender off balance.
but it seems to me with george best its not so much about him putting the defender off balance, rather the defender becomes irrelavent and its just a case of him using his own inhuman sense of balance to weave past one player after the next. i've never seen anyone else with that kind of ability
[/quote]
That's very bizarre because that's exactly how Messi beats players. Not with skill.
[quote author=My_Blood_Bleeds_Red link=topic=44075.msg1280821#msg1280821 date=1297077909]
The Ronaldo that was mentioned in this thread was the fat one, wasn't it ? I hope so.
[/quote]
Yes it is the fat one I mentioned. One of my all time favourite players. He could do it all, even after eating 6 pies and burgers with a tyre around his waist.
One of the finest finishers the game has ever seen!
The Ronaldo that was mentioned in this thread was the fat one, wasn't it ? I hope so.
[/quote]
Yes it is the fat one I mentioned. One of my all time favourite players. He could do it all, even after eating 6 pies and burgers with a tyre around his waist.
One of the finest finishers the game has ever seen!
[quote author=keniget link=topic=44075.msg1280828#msg1280828 date=1297078223]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=44075.msg1279542#msg1279542 date=1297005137]
when you watch messi beat a defender, or even maradona, they way it's done is that they use their ability and skill to put the defender off balance.
but it seems to me with george best its not so much about him putting the defender off balance, rather the defender becomes irrelavent and its just a case of him using his own inhuman sense of balance to weave past one player after the next. i've never seen anyone else with that kind of ability
[/quote]
That's very bizarre because that's exactly how Messi beats players. Not with skill.
[/quote]
Actually, it wasn't until I replied his comment a littler earlier that I realized Messi is the first I've seen to approach Best in this regard. Having said that he still doesn't have the balance and agility Best demonstrated.
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=44075.msg1279542#msg1279542 date=1297005137]
when you watch messi beat a defender, or even maradona, they way it's done is that they use their ability and skill to put the defender off balance.
but it seems to me with george best its not so much about him putting the defender off balance, rather the defender becomes irrelavent and its just a case of him using his own inhuman sense of balance to weave past one player after the next. i've never seen anyone else with that kind of ability
[/quote]
That's very bizarre because that's exactly how Messi beats players. Not with skill.
[/quote]
Actually, it wasn't until I replied his comment a littler earlier that I realized Messi is the first I've seen to approach Best in this regard. Having said that he still doesn't have the balance and agility Best demonstrated.
It's true, keni. Best played in an era when far more brutal tackling was allowed, and his status within the game ensured he was a constant target for it. He contrived to end his own career prematurely by his antics off the pitch, but it would have ended at least as early through on-field injury if he hadn't had that unbelievable coordination and grace (in addition to a toughness completely unparalleled in my experience among such flair players). Messi's got years ahead of him and may yet catch up, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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