Let's talk about Ox..

[peekay]

I agree with much of what you wrote but the big difference here is that Jones is fighting for a spot in a top club. The likes of Lallana, Ox and even Henderson played regular football at Jones age.
And where does he actually fit in?
He's a winger turned midfielder. He takes too many touches and is far too slow to play on the wing.

Not sure about the Thiago comparison either, I mean there were signs that Thiago was world class last season even though he wasn't consistent. The lack of Fabs in midfield also didn't help.

You can either focus on the positives or the negatives. Yes, he is a winger turned midfielders, takes too many touches, and is far too slow to play on the wing.

Henderson was exactly in the same boat. A not so good right midfielder plus winger who reinvented himself as a central midfielder. Jones can do the same.

Jones has a number of positive technical attributes. I bet if he plays regularly he will outperform all of our midfielders on dribbling, shots taken on goals, and goals. That is a base we can build on. He is a youngster learning a new position.

You missed the point about the Thiago comparison. Thiago was a 10-year veteran who had won multiple trophies. There were signs of class last season but it took him a full season to become an unquestionable first-choice starter. When we bought him and paid him 150-200K per week wages, it was to make an immediate impact and upgrade our midfield instantaneously. If we are willing to be patient with him, why not with a youngster who is still learning his craft and is probably on 20% of Thiago's wages.

 

[rubans]

Jones does deserve more perserverance but I don’t think he will out do the existing lot on takeons and dribbles at present because I suspect the underlying skills required for them he seems to lack. He’s not particularly pacy or quick of mind, he often takes too long on the ball and seems unable at present to manage any intensive pressing, most seen him manage is around 45 mins before tiring out. I think at present, not seen anything he’s exceptional at and that’s the issue. I don’t see anything in him to out perform Hendo whom does all those things rather well. Being an academy product, he deserves more time to make a claim.

 

[Donavan Ried]

The only talk I want to here about The Ox is that we have sold him,,,

 

[Modo]

You can either focus on the positives or the negatives. Yes, he is a winger turned midfielders, takes too many touches, and is far too slow to play on the wing.

Henderson was exactly in the same boat. A not so good right midfielder plus winger who reinvented himself as a central midfielder. Jones can do the same.

Jones has a number of positive technical attributes. I bet if he plays regularly he will outperform all of our midfielders on dribbling, shots taken on goals, and goals. That is a base we can build on. He is a youngster learning a new position.

You missed the point about the Thiago comparison. Thiago was a 10-year veteran who had won multiple trophies. There were signs of class last season but it took him a full season to become an unquestionable first-choice starter. When we bought him and paid him 150-200K per week wages, it was to make an immediate impact and upgrade our midfield instantaneously. If we are willing to be patient with him, why not with a youngster who is still learning his craft and is probably on 20% of Thiago's wages.

Was Hendo really right winger though? I think we are layed him there because we had Lucas, Gerrard, Adam etc.

 

[peekay]

Was Hendo really right winger though? I think we are layed him there because we had Lucas, Gerrard, Adam etc.

Made his debut as a right-winger or right midfielder for Sunderland. He played that position when he joined us also. I believe under Rodgers was when he moved centrally.

 

[Judge Jules]

He switched between RM and CM for both clubs. One Sunderland fan I know reckoned he was better out wide, but in fairness he said not all fans agreed with him.

 

[Red Bird]

Was Hendo really right winger though? I think we are layed him there because we had Lucas, Gerrard, Adam etc.

It’s where he played at Sunderland.

 

[StevieM]

I don’t mind Ox - sure he hasn’t been great, but he clearly fit in well, is popular, works hard, doesn’t whinge and moan about being a squad player and seems to have a generally positive impact around the club.

Is that enough to keep him around - probably not and if a decent offer comes in and/or he wants to go - then no issues with punting him on.

Meanwhile, until the kids start to hit 21 and need to be registered to play - which is years away, and if he can stay fit, like he has this season, then he does offer cover across multiple positions and is homegrown.

The problem we face with punting him along with Phillips & Gomez and Milner possibly retiring does mean we have to sign homegrown or we still have to punt on even more players if we want to sign someone over 21 that’s not home grown.

If we’re thinking of punting Firmino, Mane, Origi, Minamino, etc as well - all of a sudden you’re looking at replacing 7 or 8 senior players - which wouldn’t be easy and wouldn’t be cheap.

There’s a lot to be said for continuity and maybe only replacing 2 or 3 senior players a season.

 

[FreshRed]

Jones does deserve more perserverance but I don’t think he will out do the existing lot on takeons and dribbles at present because I suspect the underlying skills required for them he seems to lack. He’s not particularly pacy or quick of mind, he often takes too long on the ball and seems unable at present to manage any intensive pressing, most seen him manage is around 45 mins before tiring out. I think at present, not seen anything he’s exceptional at and that’s the issue. I don’t see anything in him to out perform Hendo whom does all those things rather well. Being an academy product, he deserves more time to make a claim.

A loan to Brighton would do him a world of good - even a little more sunshine might help too.

Way too early to write him off, but needs to start a majority of games. He might get that at Brighton as Lallana’s replacement. Other midfielders at Brighton aging too.

 

[Hansern]

Ox has one year left on his contract though, so its a bit make or break this summer. Either you sell him and get a decent fee or you have to make a decision about a new contract or losing him for free. Keita is the same.

I'm guessing we will keep one of them and sell the other.

 

[Squiggles]

I don’t mind Ox - sure he hasn’t been great, but he clearly fit in well, is popular, works hard, doesn’t whinge and moan about being a squad player and seems to have a generally positive impact around the club.

Is that enough to keep him around - probably not and if a decent offer comes in and/or he wants to go - then no issues with punting him on.

Meanwhile, until the kids start to hit 21 and need to be registered to play - which is years away, and if he can stay fit, like he has this season, then he does offer cover across multiple positions and is homegrown.

The problem we face with punting him along with Phillips & Gomez and Milner possibly retiring does mean we have to sign homegrown or we still have to punt on even more players if we want to sign someone over 21 that’s not home grown.

If we’re thinking of punting Firmino, Mane, Origi, Minamino, etc as well - all of a sudden you’re looking at replacing 7 or 8 senior players - which wouldn’t be easy and wouldn’t be cheap.

There’s a lot to be said for continuity and maybe only replacing 2 or 3 senior players a season.

I get that, but the issue really he's blocking the progress of Elliott and Jones, who both home-grown and capable of doing his job for the team and more. Jones hasn't been making the bench lately, which is an issue. Ox also has a year left and takes up 120-130k a week in wages, which doesn't merit what he brings to the squad. At his current level Jones can be doing anything Ox has provided for us in the last 2/3 years. For me it's time to cash in.

 

[MomoWASright]

Ox has one year left on his contract though, so its a bit make or break this summer. Either you sell him and get a decent fee or you have to make a decision about a new contract or losing him for free. Keita is the same.

I'm guessing we will keep one of them and sell the other.

I think we will keep Ox due to his home grown status.

 

[MomoWASright]

I get that, but the issue really he's blocking the progress of Elliott and Jones, who both home-grown and capable of doing his job for the team and more. Jones hasn't been making the bench lately, which is an issue. Ox also has a year left and takes up 120-130k a week in wages, which doesn't merit what he brings to the squad. At his current level Jones can be doing anything Ox has provided for us in the last 2/3 years. For me it's time to cash in.

I get that but I see his role is a last 10-20 minutes of games player. He will rarely start.

 

[singlerider]

I think the one thing Ox brings that not many of our other players have (or perhaps don't *do* - by order?) is out of the box shots. Sometimes, if we're struggling to find a way through, that might be a different option?

 

[Modo]

I think the one thing Ox brings that not many of our other players have (or perhaps don't *do* - by order?) is out of the box shots. Sometimes, if we're struggling to find a way through, that might be a different option?

Yeah but how many times does he manage to get himself in a position to shoot?
Right now, I see at as a luxury. I see Ox as the kind of player who needs to play in a free role in midfield. Problem is, unlike Gerrard when Torres was around, he's just not good enough.

 

[Modo]

Since Jones was brought up:

[Neil Jones] Klopp says he is Curtis Jones' biggest fan, but the young Scouser has been the odd one out of late, with Liverpool's squad as strong as it's ever been. There will be chances to shine between now and May, for sure. They must be taken.

 

[mark1975]

Yeah but how many times does he manage to get himself in a position to shoot?
Right now, I see at as a luxury. I see Ox as the kind of player who needs to play in a free role in midfield. Problem is, unlike Gerrard when Torres was around, he's just not good enough.

And the other issue is that many players who make a career of scoring from outside the box, stop doing it quite so frequently with age. Gerrard didn't do it so much, there are countless others. So if he's not bringing at least that to the table, he's not really offering much else.

Though, playing devils advocate a bit, but I can sort of see why Klopp would persist with him. He's way more versatile than Jones and Keita, but Jones has years ahead of him and Keita when at his best at least is a much better possession midfielder.

 

[Modo]

And the other issue is that many players who make a career of scoring from outside the box, stop doing it quite so frequently with age. Gerrard didn't do it so much, there are countless others. So if he's not bringing at least that to the table, he's not really offering much else.

Though, playing devils advocate a bit, but I can sort of see why Klopp would persist with him. He's way more versatile than Jones and Keita, but Jones has years ahead of him and Keita when at his best at least is a much better possession midfielder.

Good point about Gerrard, could be due to his recurring groin injuries taking a toll on him.
Here's a little (unbelievable) Keita stat btw:

Naby Keita’s Points per game record is 2.47. (Behind only Arjen Robben and Laporte )

on 50+ games, Arjen Robben remains the untouchable leader (2.58) then:
Laporte 2.54
Keita 2.47
Zinchenko 2.46
Foden 2.46
Bernardo 2.42
Sane 2.41
many other guardiola players
top player for non-super dominant club prob... Fábio Aurélio 2.06

Sauce:

 

[Fabio]

Good point about Gerrard, could be due to his recurring groin injuries taking a toll on him.
Here's a little (unbelievable) Keita stat btw:

Naby Keita’s Points per game record is 2.47. (Behind only Arjen Robben and Laporte )

on 50+ games, Arjen Robben remains the untouchable leader (2.58) then:
Laporte 2.54
Keita 2.47
Zinchenko 2.46
Foden 2.46
Bernardo 2.42
Sane 2.41
many other guardiola players
top player for non-super dominant club prob... Fábio Aurélio 2.06

Sauce:

Personally not surprised to see fabs in there

 

[Fabio]

Since Jones was brought up:

[Neil Jones] Klopp says he is Curtis Jones' biggest fan, but the young Scouser has been the odd one out of late, with Liverpool's squad as strong as it's ever been. There will be chances to shine between now and May, for sure. They must be taken.

Honestly jones needs to be snaffling up every opportunity he gets. He needs to force the issue more, but i just don't think he will.

 

[Modo]

Personally not surprised to see fabs in there

Ah...your boy "Alrightyo". Wish he was more available back in the day.

 

[Woland]

Every time I see ox named in the squad a part of me wishes that we were managed by someone like Putin.

 

[Delinquent]

Meanwhile, until the kids start to hit 21 and need to be registered to play - which is years away, and if he can stay fit, like he has this season, then he does offer cover across multiple positions and is homegrown.

If by cover you mean 'a human being with a beating heart', then I agree. But he offers none of the qualities of the players he covers for. And he's got the same flaws in his game today that he had 10 years ago. I had to laugh when he said in an interview last year that his experience helps him adapt and deal with different situations, because there's been no evidence of that at all. He looks completely lost whatever the situation. I genuinely think you'd be better off giving his minutes to a promising youngster. You'd get a similar amount of naivety and rawness, but there's a chance with a youngster that it will help them develop into a better player. There's absolutely no hope of that with Ox any more.

 

[StevieM]

Yeah… I’m not for dying on the Ox hill - Injust don’t hate him.

I’m more concerned about who we replace him with - there isn’t a huge amount of stuff that needs to be done to the squad, unless someone specifically wants to leave or we get a massive offer that makes less sense to turn down than accept - or we can get the right player at a price we’re willing to pay.

There are clearly several replaceable players - I’m just not keen in replacing them hem all in one swoop, because a Klopp system needs the players to be familiar with it and that takes time.

 

[Rosco]

I think we will keep Ox due to his home grown status.

And the fact nobody would buy him

 

[MomoWASright]

And the fact nobody would buy him

Stop being a realist

 

[ILD]

Ox offers nothing. A goal every upteen games doesn't mask over the fact he continually runs into opposition players. It's like he's calibrated incorrectly. It's impressive how he does it. Play Jones, Elliott, Milner, Kieta ahead of him when possible.

Ox is a good person but not a good enough footballer to take up minutes of other players.

 

[RedStar]

To me Ox and Milner are now surplus to requirements in midfield. I like both of them but there is absolutely no way either one is worth £100k per week and place in the squad. Klopp has been at the club for nearly 7 years, Ox is probably his most perplexing signing in that time.

 

[Modo]

 

[Bradley]

And you won't be for another month.