it's as simple as this. . .
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[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38822.msg1050722#msg1050722 date=1265545428]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38822.msg1050676#msg1050676 date=1265542621]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38822.msg1050623#msg1050623 date=1265519918]
I see Mark isn't answering the question ... Let's try again - when Kuyt is off form, should he still be undroppable?
[/quote]
Is there a point in answering it Wiz? We already posted about this recently, no one is untouchable, I just don't see your point re poor form, or at least why you're making such an issue of it. No one is THAT consistent over the course of a season. Ok, so ideally he'd be dropped when in poor form, the problem is that he's still capable of scoring crucial goals when in poor form, so what do you do? Only the Gerrard's and Torres' are reliable across a whole season to the degree that you're implying and even they suffer peaks and troughs.
Should he be dropped when not playing well? He should certainly now be pressured by the likes of Maxi. I just feel that he's not only being grossly underrated and undervalued by alot of posters who should probably know better, people are also exaggerating this 'poor form' issue and aren't really living in the real football World where players don't put in miraculous performances consistently over 50 odd games.
His record and his determination and passion for the club speaks for itself. He's a top, top player.
[/quote]
did you read my post? kuyt is a player with determination and heart and is a reguar goal scorer but I sometimes wonder if the team would be better served with someone that worked less but worked better and is more effective at hurting teams, and someone who isn't as prone to losses of form. last and season and this season when we are at our lowest, where was kuyt?
kuyt is a player that excells when liverpool excells and slumps when liverpool slumps this is fair enough as form comes and goes but he plays week in and week out regardless. what I find utterly utterly infuriating about rafa is he refuses to give other a run, I'm not talking a fucking bit part here and there, I'm talking a run of games. that really is what sets fergie apart from rafa, if you aren't delivering the goods you are fucking out of the team no matter WHO you are, the mentality of the entire squad is on edge because if you aren't performing you're out. half the sqaud are chomping at the bit to get into the team and the other half are under pressure to maintain their form otherwise they know they are out. one half of our squad knows no matter what they do they wont get a run and the other half knows no matter what they do they wont be dropped and frankly it costs us points.
kuyt was stinking the fucking place out earlier in the season, chasing his own fucking tail and delievering next to fuck all but he was still picked as we were losing points hand over fist giving someone else a go may have turned some draws into wins and some loses into draws, the exact same thing happened last year. you know, I could at least UNDERSTAND it if he were a rooney, a torres, basically someone who in the blink of an eye can change the entire complexion but he isn't. dirk is a hard working, honest, tidy player who will never hide with an eye for goal and that's fine but let's not make him out to be a great player, he isn't.
[/quote]
Good post.
I'm honestly gobsmacked that his crap form over months can be so easily forgotten after 5 good games. He was great yesterday but lets not make out that that's his usual form.
Not that it's a definitive measurement of anything in particular, but I always look to what our rivals have to say about our players to get a measure of how highly he's rated with the rose tinted glasses off. No doubt, they have their bitter glasses on, but it as least gives you some perspective from both ends of the spectrum. On players like Torres and Gerrard, there is no denying their class, even our rivals on Redcafe or CFCnet begrudgingly acknowledge their abilities as world class players (the sane ones anyway). The same goes for Mascherano and Reina now (after a year or two of denial that they were any good). Players like Kuyt and Riera are rated as average to good players with limited ability. Players on the same level as Park who would be squad players in their side. Now whether you agree with that analysis or not it IS quite telling that Alex Ferguson does play Park in all the big games against top sides because of his tactical discipline, workrate and ability to chip in with a few goals. Similar to Kuyt.
But against the relegation fodder, when United just have to go out there and take the game to the opposition, he prefers a more skilful or direct player in Valencia/Nani/Giggs.
Don't get me wrong, Kuyt is a player who deserves a place in our squad no question, but I think we'd be better served with a player who was raping the smaller teams with pace and skill week in, week out.. and whom perhaps didn't score as many big goals in big games. Perhaps that's where/when Kuyt would/should be rotated into the side.
Pride aside, 3 points against Everton is the same as 3 points against Wolves. We beat United twice last year (who only won 1 top 4 game), but they got the last laugh when they lifted the title in May. Determination and effort only gets you so far. It wins you games like yesterday (where it was really needed once we were reduced to 10 men) but when a team matches that same effort (Wolves/Stoke) then you need that extra bit of class/pace/ability to seperate you and them.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38822.msg1050676#msg1050676 date=1265542621]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38822.msg1050623#msg1050623 date=1265519918]
I see Mark isn't answering the question ... Let's try again - when Kuyt is off form, should he still be undroppable?
[/quote]
Is there a point in answering it Wiz? We already posted about this recently, no one is untouchable, I just don't see your point re poor form, or at least why you're making such an issue of it. No one is THAT consistent over the course of a season. Ok, so ideally he'd be dropped when in poor form, the problem is that he's still capable of scoring crucial goals when in poor form, so what do you do? Only the Gerrard's and Torres' are reliable across a whole season to the degree that you're implying and even they suffer peaks and troughs.
Should he be dropped when not playing well? He should certainly now be pressured by the likes of Maxi. I just feel that he's not only being grossly underrated and undervalued by alot of posters who should probably know better, people are also exaggerating this 'poor form' issue and aren't really living in the real football World where players don't put in miraculous performances consistently over 50 odd games.
His record and his determination and passion for the club speaks for itself. He's a top, top player.
[/quote]
did you read my post? kuyt is a player with determination and heart and is a reguar goal scorer but I sometimes wonder if the team would be better served with someone that worked less but worked better and is more effective at hurting teams, and someone who isn't as prone to losses of form. last and season and this season when we are at our lowest, where was kuyt?
kuyt is a player that excells when liverpool excells and slumps when liverpool slumps this is fair enough as form comes and goes but he plays week in and week out regardless. what I find utterly utterly infuriating about rafa is he refuses to give other a run, I'm not talking a fucking bit part here and there, I'm talking a run of games. that really is what sets fergie apart from rafa, if you aren't delivering the goods you are fucking out of the team no matter WHO you are, the mentality of the entire squad is on edge because if you aren't performing you're out. half the sqaud are chomping at the bit to get into the team and the other half are under pressure to maintain their form otherwise they know they are out. one half of our squad knows no matter what they do they wont get a run and the other half knows no matter what they do they wont be dropped and frankly it costs us points.
kuyt was stinking the fucking place out earlier in the season, chasing his own fucking tail and delievering next to fuck all but he was still picked as we were losing points hand over fist giving someone else a go may have turned some draws into wins and some loses into draws, the exact same thing happened last year. you know, I could at least UNDERSTAND it if he were a rooney, a torres, basically someone who in the blink of an eye can change the entire complexion but he isn't. dirk is a hard working, honest, tidy player who will never hide with an eye for goal and that's fine but let's not make him out to be a great player, he isn't.
[/quote]
Good post.
I'm honestly gobsmacked that his crap form over months can be so easily forgotten after 5 good games. He was great yesterday but lets not make out that that's his usual form.
Not that it's a definitive measurement of anything in particular, but I always look to what our rivals have to say about our players to get a measure of how highly he's rated with the rose tinted glasses off. No doubt, they have their bitter glasses on, but it as least gives you some perspective from both ends of the spectrum. On players like Torres and Gerrard, there is no denying their class, even our rivals on Redcafe or CFCnet begrudgingly acknowledge their abilities as world class players (the sane ones anyway). The same goes for Mascherano and Reina now (after a year or two of denial that they were any good). Players like Kuyt and Riera are rated as average to good players with limited ability. Players on the same level as Park who would be squad players in their side. Now whether you agree with that analysis or not it IS quite telling that Alex Ferguson does play Park in all the big games against top sides because of his tactical discipline, workrate and ability to chip in with a few goals. Similar to Kuyt.
But against the relegation fodder, when United just have to go out there and take the game to the opposition, he prefers a more skilful or direct player in Valencia/Nani/Giggs.
Don't get me wrong, Kuyt is a player who deserves a place in our squad no question, but I think we'd be better served with a player who was raping the smaller teams with pace and skill week in, week out.. and whom perhaps didn't score as many big goals in big games. Perhaps that's where/when Kuyt would/should be rotated into the side.
Pride aside, 3 points against Everton is the same as 3 points against Wolves. We beat United twice last year (who only won 1 top 4 game), but they got the last laugh when they lifted the title in May. Determination and effort only gets you so far. It wins you games like yesterday (where it was really needed once we were reduced to 10 men) but when a team matches that same effort (Wolves/Stoke) then you need that extra bit of class/pace/ability to seperate you and them.
When you fill a team with Fancy Dans with high skill levels, it doesn't always work. There is a case for saying that every team needs one or two grafters with limited ability but big hearts. England's World Cup winning team of 1966 is a case in point, including as it did Nobby Stiles who was a horrible little assassin with no football skills at all - but it seemed to do the trick.
I have abused Dirk Kuyt as much as anybody else, but after a game like yesterday's Derby in which he grafted incessantly and scored the winner through sheer willpower, I have to concede that we owe him a lot.
I have abused Dirk Kuyt as much as anybody else, but after a game like yesterday's Derby in which he grafted incessantly and scored the winner through sheer willpower, I have to concede that we owe him a lot.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1050733#msg1050733 date=1265547113]
Good post.
I'm honestly gobsmacked that his crap form over months can be so easily forgotten after 5 good games. Not that it's a definitive measurement of anything in particular, but I always look to what our rivals have to say about our players to get a measure of how highly he's rated with the rose tinted glasses off. No doubt, they have their bitter glasses on, but it as least gives you some perspective from both ends of the spectrum. On players like Torres and Gerrard, there is no denying their class, even our rivals on Redcafe or CFCnet begrudgingly acknowledge their abilities as world class players (the sane ones anyway).
The same goes for Mascherano and Reina now (after a year or two of denial that they were any good). Players like Kuyt and Riera are rated as average to good players with limited ability. Players on the same level as Park who would be squad players in their side. Now whether you agree with that analysis or not it IS quite telling that Alex Ferguson does play Park in all the big games against top sides because of his tactical discipline, workrate and ability to chip in with a few goals. Similar to Kuyt.
But against the relegation fodder, when United just have to go out there and take the game to the opposition, he prefers a more skilful or direct player in Valencia/Nani/Giggs.
Don't get me wrong, Kuyt is a player who deserves a place in our squad no question, but I think we'd be better served with a player who was raping the smaller teams with pace and skill week in, week out.. and whom perhaps didn't score as many big goals in big games. Perhaps that's where Kuyt would be drafted into the side.
Pride aside, 3 points against Everton is the same as 3 points against Wolves. We beat United twice last year (who only won 1 top 4 game), but they got the last laugh when they lifted the title in May. Determination and effort only gets you so far. It wins you games like yesterday (where it was really needed once we were reduced to 10 men) but when a team matches that same effort (Wolves/Stoke) then you need that extra bit of class/pace/ability to seperate you and them.
[/quote]
We have the highest scoring winger in the league!
Add Valencia's, Nani's and Giggs' tally so far, and you'd come up one short of Dirk's. Park who is apparently on the same level as Dirk has scored one goal all season.
I prefer our wingers to score more and rape less, like Kuyt.
Good post.
I'm honestly gobsmacked that his crap form over months can be so easily forgotten after 5 good games. Not that it's a definitive measurement of anything in particular, but I always look to what our rivals have to say about our players to get a measure of how highly he's rated with the rose tinted glasses off. No doubt, they have their bitter glasses on, but it as least gives you some perspective from both ends of the spectrum. On players like Torres and Gerrard, there is no denying their class, even our rivals on Redcafe or CFCnet begrudgingly acknowledge their abilities as world class players (the sane ones anyway).
The same goes for Mascherano and Reina now (after a year or two of denial that they were any good). Players like Kuyt and Riera are rated as average to good players with limited ability. Players on the same level as Park who would be squad players in their side. Now whether you agree with that analysis or not it IS quite telling that Alex Ferguson does play Park in all the big games against top sides because of his tactical discipline, workrate and ability to chip in with a few goals. Similar to Kuyt.
But against the relegation fodder, when United just have to go out there and take the game to the opposition, he prefers a more skilful or direct player in Valencia/Nani/Giggs.
Don't get me wrong, Kuyt is a player who deserves a place in our squad no question, but I think we'd be better served with a player who was raping the smaller teams with pace and skill week in, week out.. and whom perhaps didn't score as many big goals in big games. Perhaps that's where Kuyt would be drafted into the side.
Pride aside, 3 points against Everton is the same as 3 points against Wolves. We beat United twice last year (who only won 1 top 4 game), but they got the last laugh when they lifted the title in May. Determination and effort only gets you so far. It wins you games like yesterday (where it was really needed once we were reduced to 10 men) but when a team matches that same effort (Wolves/Stoke) then you need that extra bit of class/pace/ability to seperate you and them.
[/quote]
We have the highest scoring winger in the league!
Add Valencia's, Nani's and Giggs' tally so far, and you'd come up one short of Dirk's. Park who is apparently on the same level as Dirk has scored one goal all season.
I prefer our wingers to score more and rape less, like Kuyt.
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050738#msg1050738 date=1265547511]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1050733#msg1050733 date=1265547113]
Good post.
I'm honestly gobsmacked that his crap form over months can be so easily forgotten after 5 good games. Not that it's a definitive measurement of anything in particular, but I always look to what our rivals have to say about our players to get a measure of how highly he's rated with the rose tinted glasses off. No doubt, they have their bitter glasses on, but it as least gives you some perspective from both ends of the spectrum. On players like Torres and Gerrard, there is no denying their class, even our rivals on Redcafe or CFCnet begrudgingly acknowledge their abilities as world class players (the sane ones anyway).
The same goes for Mascherano and Reina now (after a year or two of denial that they were any good). Players like Kuyt and Riera are rated as average to good players with limited ability. Players on the same level as Park who would be squad players in their side. Now whether you agree with that analysis or not it IS quite telling that Alex Ferguson does play Park in all the big games against top sides because of his tactical discipline, workrate and ability to chip in with a few goals. Similar to Kuyt.
But against the relegation fodder, when United just have to go out there and take the game to the opposition, he prefers a more skilful or direct player in Valencia/Nani/Giggs.
Don't get me wrong, Kuyt is a player who deserves a place in our squad no question, but I think we'd be better served with a player who was raping the smaller teams with pace and skill week in, week out.. and whom perhaps didn't score as many big goals in big games. Perhaps that's where Kuyt would be drafted into the side.
Pride aside, 3 points against Everton is the same as 3 points against Wolves. We beat United twice last year (who only won 1 top 4 game), but they got the last laugh when they lifted the title in May. Determination and effort only gets you so far. It wins you games like yesterday (where it was really needed once we were reduced to 10 men) but when a team matches that same effort (Wolves/Stoke) then you need that extra bit of class/pace/ability to seperate you and them.
[/quote]
We have the highest scoring winger in the league!
Add Valencia's, Nani's and Giggs' tally so far, and you'd come up one short of Dirk's. Park who is apparently on the same level as Dirk has scored one goal all season.
I prefer our wingers to score more and rape less, like Kuyt.
[/quote]
I'd prefer wingers who help us win the league, like Giggs. Works half as much, runs half the distance, scores half as many, but even at his grand old age of thirty-whatever is a better player than Dirk Kuyt. A case of class over industry. But hey, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1050733#msg1050733 date=1265547113]
Good post.
I'm honestly gobsmacked that his crap form over months can be so easily forgotten after 5 good games. Not that it's a definitive measurement of anything in particular, but I always look to what our rivals have to say about our players to get a measure of how highly he's rated with the rose tinted glasses off. No doubt, they have their bitter glasses on, but it as least gives you some perspective from both ends of the spectrum. On players like Torres and Gerrard, there is no denying their class, even our rivals on Redcafe or CFCnet begrudgingly acknowledge their abilities as world class players (the sane ones anyway).
The same goes for Mascherano and Reina now (after a year or two of denial that they were any good). Players like Kuyt and Riera are rated as average to good players with limited ability. Players on the same level as Park who would be squad players in their side. Now whether you agree with that analysis or not it IS quite telling that Alex Ferguson does play Park in all the big games against top sides because of his tactical discipline, workrate and ability to chip in with a few goals. Similar to Kuyt.
But against the relegation fodder, when United just have to go out there and take the game to the opposition, he prefers a more skilful or direct player in Valencia/Nani/Giggs.
Don't get me wrong, Kuyt is a player who deserves a place in our squad no question, but I think we'd be better served with a player who was raping the smaller teams with pace and skill week in, week out.. and whom perhaps didn't score as many big goals in big games. Perhaps that's where Kuyt would be drafted into the side.
Pride aside, 3 points against Everton is the same as 3 points against Wolves. We beat United twice last year (who only won 1 top 4 game), but they got the last laugh when they lifted the title in May. Determination and effort only gets you so far. It wins you games like yesterday (where it was really needed once we were reduced to 10 men) but when a team matches that same effort (Wolves/Stoke) then you need that extra bit of class/pace/ability to seperate you and them.
[/quote]
We have the highest scoring winger in the league!
Add Valencia's, Nani's and Giggs' tally so far, and you'd come up one short of Dirk's. Park who is apparently on the same level as Dirk has scored one goal all season.
I prefer our wingers to score more and rape less, like Kuyt.
[/quote]
I'd prefer wingers who help us win the league, like Giggs. Works half as much, runs half the distance, scores half as many, but even at his grand old age of thirty-whatever is a better player than Dirk Kuyt. A case of class over industry. But hey, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.
okay, say a midfielder has a brilliant 3 months and in that time scores 9 goals would it be okay for that midfielder to not contribute for the rest of the season?
consistancy wins out everytime over hot streaks. I'd sooner have someone who on average creates 1 or 2 'genuine' chances every single game he plays rather than someone who offers bugger all for weeks at a time and then in a hot month scores 5 in a row. peope are talking about the likes of park, nani, valencia and the midfield that contributes little in the way of direct goals but they hurt teams more more effectively than we seem to be able and before anyone mentions being carried by rooney, rooney is a striker and a striker can do fuck all if they aren't given the ball.
consistancy wins out everytime over hot streaks. I'd sooner have someone who on average creates 1 or 2 'genuine' chances every single game he plays rather than someone who offers bugger all for weeks at a time and then in a hot month scores 5 in a row. peope are talking about the likes of park, nani, valencia and the midfield that contributes little in the way of direct goals but they hurt teams more more effectively than we seem to be able and before anyone mentions being carried by rooney, rooney is a striker and a striker can do fuck all if they aren't given the ball.
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050745#msg1050745 date=1265548509]
You'd take a straight swap? Kuyt and Giggs?
[/quote]
Over one season, yes. I think Torres and Gerrard's goal count would go up immediately with Giggs in our side.
I'd certainly take it for Valencia this year, and if he continues his recent 5 game form for the future, I'd take Nani* too (he's starting to look ominously good and could prove to be a testament to manager showing faith/patience in a player - see Babel).
*Though on Nani, it'd have to be Fergie managing him so perhaps he's not suited for our side.
You'd take a straight swap? Kuyt and Giggs?
[/quote]
Over one season, yes. I think Torres and Gerrard's goal count would go up immediately with Giggs in our side.
I'd certainly take it for Valencia this year, and if he continues his recent 5 game form for the future, I'd take Nani* too (he's starting to look ominously good and could prove to be a testament to manager showing faith/patience in a player - see Babel).
*Though on Nani, it'd have to be Fergie managing him so perhaps he's not suited for our side.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1050733#msg1050733 date=1265547113]
Pride aside, 3 points against Everton is the same as 3 points against Wolves. We beat United twice last year (who only won 1 top 4 game), but they got the last laugh when they lifted the title in May. Determination and effort only gets you so far. It wins you games like yesterday (where it was really needed once we were reduced to 10 men) but when a team matches that same effort (Wolves/Stoke) then you need that extra bit of class/pace/ability to seperate you and them.
[/quote]
fucking spot on. we have a team/sqaud that have the grit and determination to help us win battles but we don't have the quality to help us win the war.
Pride aside, 3 points against Everton is the same as 3 points against Wolves. We beat United twice last year (who only won 1 top 4 game), but they got the last laugh when they lifted the title in May. Determination and effort only gets you so far. It wins you games like yesterday (where it was really needed once we were reduced to 10 men) but when a team matches that same effort (Wolves/Stoke) then you need that extra bit of class/pace/ability to seperate you and them.
[/quote]
fucking spot on. we have a team/sqaud that have the grit and determination to help us win battles but we don't have the quality to help us win the war.
[quote author=Portly link=topic=38822.msg1050736#msg1050736 date=1265547341]
When you fill a team with Fancy Dans with high skill levels, it doesn't always work. There is a case for saying that every team needs one or two grafters with limited ability but big hearts. England's World Cup winning team of 1966 is a case in point, including as it did Nobby Stiles who was a horrible little assassin with no football skills at all - but it seemed to do the trick.
I have abused Dirk Kuyt as much as anybody else, but after a game like yesterday's Derby in which he grafted incessantly and scored the winner through sheer willpower, I have to concede that we owe him a lot.
[/quote]
Utd have had a team of 70% grafters 30% real talent for the last few years & it's done them no harm. This season that's more like 90% graft 10% talent.
When you fill a team with Fancy Dans with high skill levels, it doesn't always work. There is a case for saying that every team needs one or two grafters with limited ability but big hearts. England's World Cup winning team of 1966 is a case in point, including as it did Nobby Stiles who was a horrible little assassin with no football skills at all - but it seemed to do the trick.
I have abused Dirk Kuyt as much as anybody else, but after a game like yesterday's Derby in which he grafted incessantly and scored the winner through sheer willpower, I have to concede that we owe him a lot.
[/quote]
Utd have had a team of 70% grafters 30% real talent for the last few years & it's done them no harm. This season that's more like 90% graft 10% talent.
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=38822.msg1050753#msg1050753 date=1265549408]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=38822.msg1050736#msg1050736 date=1265547341]
When you fill a team with Fancy Dans with high skill levels, it doesn't always work. There is a case for saying that every team needs one or two grafters with limited ability but big hearts. England's World Cup winning team of 1966 is a case in point, including as it did Nobby Stiles who was a horrible little assassin with no football skills at all - but it seemed to do the trick.
I have abused Dirk Kuyt as much as anybody else, but after a game like yesterday's Derby in which he grafted incessantly and scored the winner through sheer willpower, I have to concede that we owe him a lot.
[/quote]
Utd have had a team of 70% grafters 30% real talent for the last few years & it's done them no harm. This season that's more like 90% graft 10% talent.
[/quote]
What % are we at?
[quote author=Portly link=topic=38822.msg1050736#msg1050736 date=1265547341]
When you fill a team with Fancy Dans with high skill levels, it doesn't always work. There is a case for saying that every team needs one or two grafters with limited ability but big hearts. England's World Cup winning team of 1966 is a case in point, including as it did Nobby Stiles who was a horrible little assassin with no football skills at all - but it seemed to do the trick.
I have abused Dirk Kuyt as much as anybody else, but after a game like yesterday's Derby in which he grafted incessantly and scored the winner through sheer willpower, I have to concede that we owe him a lot.
[/quote]
Utd have had a team of 70% grafters 30% real talent for the last few years & it's done them no harm. This season that's more like 90% graft 10% talent.
[/quote]
What % are we at?
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1050751#msg1050751 date=1265549166]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050745#msg1050745 date=1265548509]
You'd take a straight swap? Kuyt and Giggs?
[/quote]
Over one season, yes. I think Torres and Gerrard's goal count would go up immediately with Giggs in our side.
I'd certainly take it for Valencia this year, and if he continues his recent 5 game form for the future, I'd take Nani* too (he's starting to look ominously good and could prove to be a testament to manager showing faith/patience in a player - see Babel).
*Though on Nani, it'd have to be Fergie managing him so perhaps he's not suited for our side.
[/quote]
So you'd take Valencia and Nani based on their recent form, but don't count Kuyts recent form?
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050745#msg1050745 date=1265548509]
You'd take a straight swap? Kuyt and Giggs?
[/quote]
Over one season, yes. I think Torres and Gerrard's goal count would go up immediately with Giggs in our side.
I'd certainly take it for Valencia this year, and if he continues his recent 5 game form for the future, I'd take Nani* too (he's starting to look ominously good and could prove to be a testament to manager showing faith/patience in a player - see Babel).
*Though on Nani, it'd have to be Fergie managing him so perhaps he's not suited for our side.
[/quote]
So you'd take Valencia and Nani based on their recent form, but don't count Kuyts recent form?
kuyt has outscored nani, valencia and park put together in the league but the combination of all three will help you win more games because they will create more chances even though I would wager combined all three time on the pitch is similar to kuyt's time on the pitch by himself.
park is in when he performs out when he is shit
nani is in when he performs out when he is shit
valencia is in when he performs out when he is shit
result = team has a steady performing individual in the team all the time
kuyt is in when he performs and in when he is shit
result - team has a individual who blows hot and cold in the team all the time
park is in when he performs out when he is shit
nani is in when he performs out when he is shit
valencia is in when he performs out when he is shit
result = team has a steady performing individual in the team all the time
kuyt is in when he performs and in when he is shit
result - team has a individual who blows hot and cold in the team all the time
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1050751#msg1050751 date=1265549166]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050745#msg1050745 date=1265548509]
You'd take a straight swap? Kuyt and Giggs?
[/quote]
Over one season, yes. I think Torres and Gerrard's goal count would go up immediately with Giggs in our side.
I'd certainly take it for Valencia this year, and if he continues his recent 5 game form for the future, I'd take Nani* too (he's starting to look ominously good and could prove to be a testament to manager showing faith/patience in a player - see Babel).
*Though on Nani, it'd have to be Fergie managing him so perhaps he's not suited for our side.
[/quote]
Straight swap I said!
What Fergie has done to Nani has not been to different to Rafa's treatment of Babel.
The difference is Nani has talent. Babel is just a big, black, fast piece of rapping poo.
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050745#msg1050745 date=1265548509]
You'd take a straight swap? Kuyt and Giggs?
[/quote]
Over one season, yes. I think Torres and Gerrard's goal count would go up immediately with Giggs in our side.
I'd certainly take it for Valencia this year, and if he continues his recent 5 game form for the future, I'd take Nani* too (he's starting to look ominously good and could prove to be a testament to manager showing faith/patience in a player - see Babel).
*Though on Nani, it'd have to be Fergie managing him so perhaps he's not suited for our side.
[/quote]
Straight swap I said!
What Fergie has done to Nani has not been to different to Rafa's treatment of Babel.
The difference is Nani has talent. Babel is just a big, black, fast piece of rapping poo.
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38822.msg1050756#msg1050756 date=1265549687]
What % are we at?
[/quote]
30% grafters, 10% talent, 60% average dross.
NB-Neil, these are not exact percentages, merely me pulling figures out of my arse, before you start.
What % are we at?
[/quote]
30% grafters, 10% talent, 60% average dross.
NB-Neil, these are not exact percentages, merely me pulling figures out of my arse, before you start.
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=38822.msg1050753#msg1050753 date=1265549408]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=38822.msg1050736#msg1050736 date=1265547341]
When you fill a team with Fancy Dans with high skill levels, it doesn't always work. There is a case for saying that every team needs one or two grafters with limited ability but big hearts. England's World Cup winning team of 1966 is a case in point, including as it did Nobby Stiles who was a horrible little assassin with no football skills at all - but it seemed to do the trick.
I have abused Dirk Kuyt as much as anybody else, but after a game like yesterday's Derby in which he grafted incessantly and scored the winner through sheer willpower, I have to concede that we owe him a lot.
[/quote]
Utd have had a team of 70% grafters 30% real talent for the last few years & it's done them no harm. This season that's more like 90% graft 10% talent.
[/quote]
Really?
Last few year.. their team has been made up of..
Neville - grafter.
Evra - talent.
Vidic - grafter.
Ferdinand - talent.
Giggs - talent.
Scholes - talent.
Carrick - talent.
Ronaldo - talent.
Rooney - talent + grafter.
Tevez - talent + grafter.
Then you have your rotated players who are in and out..
Fletcher - grafter.
Berbatov - talent.
Park - grafter.
Nani - talent.
This year, they've brought swapped Valencia for Ronaldo and Fletcher for Scholes.. and only in big games does Ferige opt for more grafters than talent. Over the years, Fergie's United teams have always been more about talent than grafting (even though they have that it spades anyway).
By the way, I dp take Portly's point. It is a valid one. But equally we have enough grafters in midfield (in Lucas and Mascher) that *I think* we need more talent out there. Or at least better talents than we currently do have. Maybe you disagree Portly?
[quote author=Portly link=topic=38822.msg1050736#msg1050736 date=1265547341]
When you fill a team with Fancy Dans with high skill levels, it doesn't always work. There is a case for saying that every team needs one or two grafters with limited ability but big hearts. England's World Cup winning team of 1966 is a case in point, including as it did Nobby Stiles who was a horrible little assassin with no football skills at all - but it seemed to do the trick.
I have abused Dirk Kuyt as much as anybody else, but after a game like yesterday's Derby in which he grafted incessantly and scored the winner through sheer willpower, I have to concede that we owe him a lot.
[/quote]
Utd have had a team of 70% grafters 30% real talent for the last few years & it's done them no harm. This season that's more like 90% graft 10% talent.
[/quote]
Really?
Last few year.. their team has been made up of..
Neville - grafter.
Evra - talent.
Vidic - grafter.
Ferdinand - talent.
Giggs - talent.
Scholes - talent.
Carrick - talent.
Ronaldo - talent.
Rooney - talent + grafter.
Tevez - talent + grafter.
Then you have your rotated players who are in and out..
Fletcher - grafter.
Berbatov - talent.
Park - grafter.
Nani - talent.
This year, they've brought swapped Valencia for Ronaldo and Fletcher for Scholes.. and only in big games does Ferige opt for more grafters than talent. Over the years, Fergie's United teams have always been more about talent than grafting (even though they have that it spades anyway).
By the way, I dp take Portly's point. It is a valid one. But equally we have enough grafters in midfield (in Lucas and Mascher) that *I think* we need more talent out there. Or at least better talents than we currently do have. Maybe you disagree Portly?
I don't think there is any shame in admitting to not being Dirk's biggest fan and this whole "if you don't get Dirk, you don't get football" mentality is just more than a little bit silly.
There isn't one right in football. There is no system, set of tactics or philosophy that will always rule over others. Each player has his own style, each manager has his own ideas... and so it stands to reason that each fan has his own preferences as well.
I think it's fairly obvious that those who are more vocal in their criticism of Kuyt prefer technique and pace over endeavour. And what of it? Two of the Premierships most successful managers have shown that successful teams can be built around these attributes.
The bottom line is that we're now at a point where almost everyone agrees that he's a great player to have in the squad and almost nobody wants him permanently dropped or sold. Yet somehow, we're still having the same polarised Kuyt debates.
Kuyt provides a very good option both up front and on the right, he is very tactically aware, has a fantastic work ethic, very good game intelligence and a rather useful knack of getting goals at important moments for this club. That said, he is also prone to having really poor slumps of form that last for more than a few weeks and during those times, there would be nothing wrong with dropping him.
Ferguson tends to play the disciplined Park in most of the big games. Why doesn't he play him week in, week out?
There isn't one right in football. There is no system, set of tactics or philosophy that will always rule over others. Each player has his own style, each manager has his own ideas... and so it stands to reason that each fan has his own preferences as well.
I think it's fairly obvious that those who are more vocal in their criticism of Kuyt prefer technique and pace over endeavour. And what of it? Two of the Premierships most successful managers have shown that successful teams can be built around these attributes.
The bottom line is that we're now at a point where almost everyone agrees that he's a great player to have in the squad and almost nobody wants him permanently dropped or sold. Yet somehow, we're still having the same polarised Kuyt debates.
Kuyt provides a very good option both up front and on the right, he is very tactically aware, has a fantastic work ethic, very good game intelligence and a rather useful knack of getting goals at important moments for this club. That said, he is also prone to having really poor slumps of form that last for more than a few weeks and during those times, there would be nothing wrong with dropping him.
Ferguson tends to play the disciplined Park in most of the big games. Why doesn't he play him week in, week out?
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38822.msg1050765#msg1050765 date=1265549997]
kuyt has outscored nani, valencia and park put together in the league but the combination of all three will help you win more games because they will create more chances even though I would wager combined all three time on the pitch is similar to kuyt's time on the pitch by himself.
park is in when he performs out when he is shit
nani is in when he performs out when he is shit
valencia is in when he performs out when he is shit
result = team has a steady performing individual in the team all the time
kuyt is in when he performs and in when he is shit
result - team has a individual who blows hot and cold in the team all the time
[/quote]
I guess cos Man Utd have an excellent squad.
We have Babel on the bench, so naturally given the option, you'd want Kuyt to stay on for as long as he is able.
Rafa has said it himself that he'd ideally bench Kuyt more often.
kuyt has outscored nani, valencia and park put together in the league but the combination of all three will help you win more games because they will create more chances even though I would wager combined all three time on the pitch is similar to kuyt's time on the pitch by himself.
park is in when he performs out when he is shit
nani is in when he performs out when he is shit
valencia is in when he performs out when he is shit
result = team has a steady performing individual in the team all the time
kuyt is in when he performs and in when he is shit
result - team has a individual who blows hot and cold in the team all the time
[/quote]
I guess cos Man Utd have an excellent squad.
We have Babel on the bench, so naturally given the option, you'd want Kuyt to stay on for as long as he is able.
Rafa has said it himself that he'd ideally bench Kuyt more often.
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=38822.msg1050767#msg1050767 date=1265550146]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38822.msg1050756#msg1050756 date=1265549687]
What % are we at?
[/quote]
30% grafters, 10% talent, 60% average dross.
NB-Neil, these are not exact percentages, merely me pulling figures out of my arse, before you start.
[/quote]
I wasn't going to say a word 😉
although clearly 60% dross isn't going to get you within 4 points of winning the league.
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38822.msg1050756#msg1050756 date=1265549687]
What % are we at?
[/quote]
30% grafters, 10% talent, 60% average dross.
NB-Neil, these are not exact percentages, merely me pulling figures out of my arse, before you start.
[/quote]
I wasn't going to say a word 😉
although clearly 60% dross isn't going to get you within 4 points of winning the league.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=38822.msg1050769#msg1050769 date=1265550325]
I don't think there is any shame in admitting to not being Dirk's biggest fan and this whole "if you don't get Dirk, you don't get football" mentality is just more than a little bit silly.
There isn't one right in football. There is no system, set of tactics or philosophy that will always rule over others. Each player has his own style, each manager has his own ideas... and so it stands to reason that each fan has his own preferences as well.
I think it's fairly obvious that those who are more vocal in their criticism of Kuyt prefer technique and pace over endeavour. And what of it? Two of the Premierships most successful managers have shown that successful teams can be built around these attributes.
The bottom line is that we're now at a point where almost everyone agrees that he's a great player to have in the squad and almost nobody wants him permanently dropped or sold. Yet somehow, we're still having the same polarised Kuyt debates.
Kuyt provides a very good option both up front and on the right, he is very tactically aware, has a fantastic work ethic, very good game intelligence and a rather useful knack of getting goals at important moments for this club. That said, he is also prone to having really poor slumps of form that last for more than a few weeks and during those times, there would be nothing wrong with dropping him.
Ferguson tends to play the disciplined Park in most of the big games. Why doesn't he play him week in, week out?
[/quote]
excellent post as alwasy keni
I don't think there is any shame in admitting to not being Dirk's biggest fan and this whole "if you don't get Dirk, you don't get football" mentality is just more than a little bit silly.
There isn't one right in football. There is no system, set of tactics or philosophy that will always rule over others. Each player has his own style, each manager has his own ideas... and so it stands to reason that each fan has his own preferences as well.
I think it's fairly obvious that those who are more vocal in their criticism of Kuyt prefer technique and pace over endeavour. And what of it? Two of the Premierships most successful managers have shown that successful teams can be built around these attributes.
The bottom line is that we're now at a point where almost everyone agrees that he's a great player to have in the squad and almost nobody wants him permanently dropped or sold. Yet somehow, we're still having the same polarised Kuyt debates.
Kuyt provides a very good option both up front and on the right, he is very tactically aware, has a fantastic work ethic, very good game intelligence and a rather useful knack of getting goals at important moments for this club. That said, he is also prone to having really poor slumps of form that last for more than a few weeks and during those times, there would be nothing wrong with dropping him.
Ferguson tends to play the disciplined Park in most of the big games. Why doesn't he play him week in, week out?
[/quote]
excellent post as alwasy keni
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38822.msg1050757#msg1050757 date=1265549719]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1050751#msg1050751 date=1265549166]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050745#msg1050745 date=1265548509]
You'd take a straight swap? Kuyt and Giggs?
[/quote]
Over one season, yes. I think Torres and Gerrard's goal count would go up immediately with Giggs in our side.
I'd certainly take it for Valencia this year, and if he continues his recent 5 game form for the future, I'd take Nani* too (he's starting to look ominously good and could prove to be a testament to manager showing faith/patience in a player - see Babel).
*Though on Nani, it'd have to be Fergie managing him so perhaps he's not suited for our side.
[/quote]
So you'd take Valencia and Nani based on their recent form, but don't count Kuyts recent form?
[/quote]
No. I didn't say that. Let me clarify if you misunderstood.
I'd take the Valencia swap regardless. I think he's a better player who is now proving it in a top side.
As for Nani, if he were to continue his recent form and Kuyt to continue his recent form (which I AM taking into account). I'd take Nani who I think could be the better player for a team going for a league.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1050751#msg1050751 date=1265549166]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050745#msg1050745 date=1265548509]
You'd take a straight swap? Kuyt and Giggs?
[/quote]
Over one season, yes. I think Torres and Gerrard's goal count would go up immediately with Giggs in our side.
I'd certainly take it for Valencia this year, and if he continues his recent 5 game form for the future, I'd take Nani* too (he's starting to look ominously good and could prove to be a testament to manager showing faith/patience in a player - see Babel).
*Though on Nani, it'd have to be Fergie managing him so perhaps he's not suited for our side.
[/quote]
So you'd take Valencia and Nani based on their recent form, but don't count Kuyts recent form?
[/quote]
No. I didn't say that. Let me clarify if you misunderstood.
I'd take the Valencia swap regardless. I think he's a better player who is now proving it in a top side.
As for Nani, if he were to continue his recent form and Kuyt to continue his recent form (which I AM taking into account). I'd take Nani who I think could be the better player for a team going for a league.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38822.msg1050686#msg1050686 date=1265543184]
I doubt Ryan thinks he's untouchable, I think he's probably just sick of hearing the same shit levelled at a player who's often one of our best and is a proven big game winner.
[/quote]
Hang about, Mark - that's just rubbish. You can get sick of hearing the same criticisms levelled at a player every day of the week but that doesn't excuse the player.
Ryan loved Garcia from early on and I'm sure plenty of people can still remember "that" post he wrote about Luis back in KT days. I've always maintained that Luis was a "luxury" player (if such a thing exists) in that a good team could afford to carry his mediocrity for the pure sublime he could produce. I personally think he'd be almost perfect for this team now though that's another story.
However, as much as Ryan loved Garcia he was still capable of admitting on numerous occasions that nobody could defend the pitiful and useless 90 minute offerings Little Luis could regularly provide. Kuyt should be no different.
I personally love Kuyt for his effort and hard work. He also scores important goals which often have the affect of erasing the embarassing misses (such as Stoke) from peoples memories. He is all heart and if you had to go to war he's surely one of the first you'd want beside you. Yet for all this he's a long way from being a good footballer. If we had a superstar left wing then Kuyt would be the perfect foil but in a team struggling for creativity he's more like the mascot than the solution.
I personally don't think we've got anyone better to choose from on the right just now. For all his failings he does get goals, he works himself into the ground, he provides immense protection to our RB and he looks willing to die for the shirt. Qualities of tremendous importance yet they don't stop me from thinking that we could do better.
In the Liverpool team that wins number 19 I truly believe Kuyt will be a member of the squad but not first pick in the starting 11.
I doubt Ryan thinks he's untouchable, I think he's probably just sick of hearing the same shit levelled at a player who's often one of our best and is a proven big game winner.
[/quote]
Hang about, Mark - that's just rubbish. You can get sick of hearing the same criticisms levelled at a player every day of the week but that doesn't excuse the player.
Ryan loved Garcia from early on and I'm sure plenty of people can still remember "that" post he wrote about Luis back in KT days. I've always maintained that Luis was a "luxury" player (if such a thing exists) in that a good team could afford to carry his mediocrity for the pure sublime he could produce. I personally think he'd be almost perfect for this team now though that's another story.
However, as much as Ryan loved Garcia he was still capable of admitting on numerous occasions that nobody could defend the pitiful and useless 90 minute offerings Little Luis could regularly provide. Kuyt should be no different.
I personally love Kuyt for his effort and hard work. He also scores important goals which often have the affect of erasing the embarassing misses (such as Stoke) from peoples memories. He is all heart and if you had to go to war he's surely one of the first you'd want beside you. Yet for all this he's a long way from being a good footballer. If we had a superstar left wing then Kuyt would be the perfect foil but in a team struggling for creativity he's more like the mascot than the solution.
I personally don't think we've got anyone better to choose from on the right just now. For all his failings he does get goals, he works himself into the ground, he provides immense protection to our RB and he looks willing to die for the shirt. Qualities of tremendous importance yet they don't stop me from thinking that we could do better.
In the Liverpool team that wins number 19 I truly believe Kuyt will be a member of the squad but not first pick in the starting 11.
Top post Ken.
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050770#msg1050770 date=1265550377]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38822.msg1050765#msg1050765 date=1265549997]
kuyt has outscored nani, valencia and park put together in the league but the combination of all three will help you win more games because they will create more chances even though I would wager combined all three time on the pitch is similar to kuyt's time on the pitch by himself.
park is in when he performs out when he is shit
nani is in when he performs out when he is shit
valencia is in when he performs out when he is shit
result = team has a steady performing individual in the team all the time
kuyt is in when he performs and in when he is shit
result - team has a individual who blows hot and cold in the team all the time
[/quote]
I guess cos Man Utd have an excellent squad.
We have Babel on the bench, so naturally given the option, you'd want Kuyt to stay on for as long as he is able.
Rafa has said it himself that he'd ideally bench Kuyt more often.
[/quote]
nani, park and valencia are squad players but are utilised in such a way as you get the maximum out of all of them. kuyt is a very good player but is flogged like a dead donkey and others are given no oppertunity to shine, to perform, to grow. I'm pretty much done with babel but when he was first here THAT was the time to play him and that goes for others like pongolle etc. I have no idea why it is such a hard concept for rafa to grasp, when someone is in a slump DROP THEM, stop fucking playing them so they regain their form ON THE PITCH so everyone can praise their battle with mediocrity while our title challenge disappears up our own ARSE. AGAIN!
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38822.msg1050765#msg1050765 date=1265549997]
kuyt has outscored nani, valencia and park put together in the league but the combination of all three will help you win more games because they will create more chances even though I would wager combined all three time on the pitch is similar to kuyt's time on the pitch by himself.
park is in when he performs out when he is shit
nani is in when he performs out when he is shit
valencia is in when he performs out when he is shit
result = team has a steady performing individual in the team all the time
kuyt is in when he performs and in when he is shit
result - team has a individual who blows hot and cold in the team all the time
[/quote]
I guess cos Man Utd have an excellent squad.
We have Babel on the bench, so naturally given the option, you'd want Kuyt to stay on for as long as he is able.
Rafa has said it himself that he'd ideally bench Kuyt more often.
[/quote]
nani, park and valencia are squad players but are utilised in such a way as you get the maximum out of all of them. kuyt is a very good player but is flogged like a dead donkey and others are given no oppertunity to shine, to perform, to grow. I'm pretty much done with babel but when he was first here THAT was the time to play him and that goes for others like pongolle etc. I have no idea why it is such a hard concept for rafa to grasp, when someone is in a slump DROP THEM, stop fucking playing them so they regain their form ON THE PITCH so everyone can praise their battle with mediocrity while our title challenge disappears up our own ARSE. AGAIN!
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38822.msg1050771#msg1050771 date=1265550385]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=38822.msg1050767#msg1050767 date=1265550146]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38822.msg1050756#msg1050756 date=1265549687]
What % are we at?
[/quote]
30% grafters, 10% talent, 60% average dross.
NB-Neil, these are not exact percentages, merely me pulling figures out of my arse, before you start.
[/quote]
I wasn't going to say a word 😉
although clearly 60% dross isn't going to get you within 4 points of winning the league.
[/quote]
I'm exaggerating on all counts like, but that is our problem, we dont have enough match changing players, & the other players dont all consistently provide the solid hard work that would help offset that.
Same with utd, when i say 'talent' I mean that kind of talent that is consistently the difference between winning & losing a game. For me in Utd's squad that's Rooney, Evra, Van Der Sar, Giggs. We have Gerrard, Reina & Torres, & being painfully truthful Gerrard is in danger of coming off that cos he isnt doing consistently (that's not a dig in any way, but his performances are not consistent or anywhere near it this season).
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=38822.msg1050767#msg1050767 date=1265550146]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38822.msg1050756#msg1050756 date=1265549687]
What % are we at?
[/quote]
30% grafters, 10% talent, 60% average dross.
NB-Neil, these are not exact percentages, merely me pulling figures out of my arse, before you start.
[/quote]
I wasn't going to say a word 😉
although clearly 60% dross isn't going to get you within 4 points of winning the league.
[/quote]
I'm exaggerating on all counts like, but that is our problem, we dont have enough match changing players, & the other players dont all consistently provide the solid hard work that would help offset that.
Same with utd, when i say 'talent' I mean that kind of talent that is consistently the difference between winning & losing a game. For me in Utd's squad that's Rooney, Evra, Van Der Sar, Giggs. We have Gerrard, Reina & Torres, & being painfully truthful Gerrard is in danger of coming off that cos he isnt doing consistently (that's not a dig in any way, but his performances are not consistent or anywhere near it this season).
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050766#msg1050766 date=1265550081]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1050751#msg1050751 date=1265549166]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050745#msg1050745 date=1265548509]
You'd take a straight swap? Kuyt and Giggs?
[/quote]
Over one season, yes. I think Torres and Gerrard's goal count would go up immediately with Giggs in our side.
I'd certainly take it for Valencia this year, and if he continues his recent 5 game form for the future, I'd take Nani* too (he's starting to look ominously good and could prove to be a testament to manager showing faith/patience in a player - see Babel).
*Though on Nani, it'd have to be Fergie managing him so perhaps he's not suited for our side.
[/quote]
Straight swap I said!
What Fergie has done to Nani has not been to different to Rafa's treatment of Babel.
The difference is Nani has talent. Babel is just a big, black, fast piece of rapping poo.
[/quote]
I disagree when you say "what Fergie has done to Nani is no different to Rafa's treatment of Babel".
Don't get me wrong, you might just be right on the whole "Babel is just a big, black, fast piece of rapping poo." and he may have never had the potential to be a top player anyway. I just don't think he was given the same chance.
I think Spidey made the point before, Fergie plays players dependant on form. Only a couple of elite players (Ferdinand/Ronaldo/Rooney) are given the 'untouchable' status. But the likes of Carrick, Valencia, Nani, even nowadays Giggs and Scholes have to earn the right to be in the side. When they're off form, they're taken out of the side (and someone else who's been chomping at the bit is drafted in). If that player plays well, he stays there.. and the ousted player is now the one eagerly awaiting his chance to get back in the side. That builds a hungry squad (is it any wonder they keep winning titles.. you'd think a player like Giggs would be bored of it by now).. they have plays all eager to play well and keep their position.
We don't have that in our side. Perhaps you can argue that's down to the strength our squad, but that'd be a lazy excuse. Players like Yossi and Ryan have had good games only to be drafted our of the squad the following week. After a year or two of that, a young player like Ryan just isn't motivated to put in a hard shift. Why would he? He knows he'll be on the bench the following game. Management like that builds doesn't build a hungry squad, or a player looking to prove himself.
Nani and Babel have had it different.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1050751#msg1050751 date=1265549166]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1050745#msg1050745 date=1265548509]
You'd take a straight swap? Kuyt and Giggs?
[/quote]
Over one season, yes. I think Torres and Gerrard's goal count would go up immediately with Giggs in our side.
I'd certainly take it for Valencia this year, and if he continues his recent 5 game form for the future, I'd take Nani* too (he's starting to look ominously good and could prove to be a testament to manager showing faith/patience in a player - see Babel).
*Though on Nani, it'd have to be Fergie managing him so perhaps he's not suited for our side.
[/quote]
Straight swap I said!
What Fergie has done to Nani has not been to different to Rafa's treatment of Babel.
The difference is Nani has talent. Babel is just a big, black, fast piece of rapping poo.
[/quote]
I disagree when you say "what Fergie has done to Nani is no different to Rafa's treatment of Babel".
Don't get me wrong, you might just be right on the whole "Babel is just a big, black, fast piece of rapping poo." and he may have never had the potential to be a top player anyway. I just don't think he was given the same chance.
I think Spidey made the point before, Fergie plays players dependant on form. Only a couple of elite players (Ferdinand/Ronaldo/Rooney) are given the 'untouchable' status. But the likes of Carrick, Valencia, Nani, even nowadays Giggs and Scholes have to earn the right to be in the side. When they're off form, they're taken out of the side (and someone else who's been chomping at the bit is drafted in). If that player plays well, he stays there.. and the ousted player is now the one eagerly awaiting his chance to get back in the side. That builds a hungry squad (is it any wonder they keep winning titles.. you'd think a player like Giggs would be bored of it by now).. they have plays all eager to play well and keep their position.
We don't have that in our side. Perhaps you can argue that's down to the strength our squad, but that'd be a lazy excuse. Players like Yossi and Ryan have had good games only to be drafted our of the squad the following week. After a year or two of that, a young player like Ryan just isn't motivated to put in a hard shift. Why would he? He knows he'll be on the bench the following game. Management like that builds doesn't build a hungry squad, or a player looking to prove himself.
Nani and Babel have had it different.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=38822.msg1050769#msg1050769 date=1265550325]
I don't think there is any shame in admitting to not being Dirk's biggest fan and this whole "if you don't get Dirk, you don't get football" mentality is just more than a little bit silly.
There isn't one right in football. There is no system, set of tactics or philosophy that will always rule over others. Each player has his own style, each manager has his own ideas... and so it stands to reason that each fan has his own preferences as well.
I think it's fairly obvious that those who are more vocal in their criticism of Kuyt prefer technique and pace over endeavour. And what of it? Two of the Premierships most successful managers have shown that successful teams can be built around these attributes.
The bottom line is that we're now at a point where almost everyone agrees that he's a great player to have in the squad and almost nobody wants him permanently dropped or sold. Yet somehow, we're still having the same polarised Kuyt debates.
Kuyt provides a very good option both up front and on the right, he is very tactically aware, has a fantastic work ethic, very good game intelligence and a rather useful knack of getting goals at important moments for this club. That said, he is also prone to having really poor slumps of form that last for more than a few weeks and during those times, there would be nothing wrong with dropping him.
Ferguson tends to play the disciplined Park in most of the big games. Why doesn't he play him week in, week out?
[/quote]
Yeah. Great post. I was thinking of this myself. I'm getting tired of these arguments.
It's not like I think Kuyt is a bad player. He's great for the squad. It just irks me when I see all the "I told you so"s after he's had a couple of good games off the back of months of poor to average form.
And when I see the template of a top class winger (as United, Arse and Chelsea have shown), I don't see Dirk Kuyt. Yet people bang on about how many big goals he gets, but seem to forget there are 30 more equally big games in the league season (beside our rivals) where we need him to perform (especially when he's not scoring).
I don't think there is any shame in admitting to not being Dirk's biggest fan and this whole "if you don't get Dirk, you don't get football" mentality is just more than a little bit silly.
There isn't one right in football. There is no system, set of tactics or philosophy that will always rule over others. Each player has his own style, each manager has his own ideas... and so it stands to reason that each fan has his own preferences as well.
I think it's fairly obvious that those who are more vocal in their criticism of Kuyt prefer technique and pace over endeavour. And what of it? Two of the Premierships most successful managers have shown that successful teams can be built around these attributes.
The bottom line is that we're now at a point where almost everyone agrees that he's a great player to have in the squad and almost nobody wants him permanently dropped or sold. Yet somehow, we're still having the same polarised Kuyt debates.
Kuyt provides a very good option both up front and on the right, he is very tactically aware, has a fantastic work ethic, very good game intelligence and a rather useful knack of getting goals at important moments for this club. That said, he is also prone to having really poor slumps of form that last for more than a few weeks and during those times, there would be nothing wrong with dropping him.
Ferguson tends to play the disciplined Park in most of the big games. Why doesn't he play him week in, week out?
[/quote]
Yeah. Great post. I was thinking of this myself. I'm getting tired of these arguments.
It's not like I think Kuyt is a bad player. He's great for the squad. It just irks me when I see all the "I told you so"s after he's had a couple of good games off the back of months of poor to average form.
And when I see the template of a top class winger (as United, Arse and Chelsea have shown), I don't see Dirk Kuyt. Yet people bang on about how many big goals he gets, but seem to forget there are 30 more equally big games in the league season (beside our rivals) where we need him to perform (especially when he's not scoring).
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=38822.msg1050784#msg1050784 date=1265551194]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38822.msg1050771#msg1050771 date=1265550385]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=38822.msg1050767#msg1050767 date=1265550146]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38822.msg1050756#msg1050756 date=1265549687]
What % are we at?
[/quote]
30% grafters, 10% talent, 60% average dross.
NB-Neil, these are not exact percentages, merely me pulling figures out of my arse, before you start.
[/quote]
I wasn't going to say a word 😉
although clearly 60% dross isn't going to get you within 4 points of winning the league.
[/quote]
I'm exaggerating on all counts like, but that is our problem, we dont have enough match changing players, & the other players dont all consistently provide the solid hard work that would help offset that.
Same with utd, when i say 'talent' I mean that kind of talent that is consistently the difference between winning & losing a game. For me in Utd's squad that's Rooney, Evra, Van Der Sar, Giggs. We have Gerrard, Reina & Torres, & being painfully truthful Gerrard is in danger of coming off that cos he isnt doing consistently (that's not a dig in any way, but his performances are not consistent or anywhere near it this season).
[/quote]
okay, here's the thing, you talk about 'match changers' that's how rafa sees the squad, how someone can come off the bench to change the game when things have gone tits up. rafa should see the squad as equal individuals of people who all need time to play to get to a certain level. look at pre season he plays every motherfucker even the kids and then come the season he selects the same faces week in week out regardless of form, a total turn around from when he first arrived.
when rafa first arrived he heavily rotated the sqaud which meant we suffered in the early months and then finished strongly, every season he has rotated less and less and I don't think there was EVER a time when he rotated his'untouhables'.
I personally think there are only 4 players who should play regardless of form; pepe, carra, gerrard and torres. for different reasons invaluable in what they do. outside of that very select group I think every other position is fair game ESPECIALLY when that individual has been in a slump for weeks. if you're going to use the squad then fucking don't HAVE the squad and fucking cut down on the wage bill.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38822.msg1050771#msg1050771 date=1265550385]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=38822.msg1050767#msg1050767 date=1265550146]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38822.msg1050756#msg1050756 date=1265549687]
What % are we at?
[/quote]
30% grafters, 10% talent, 60% average dross.
NB-Neil, these are not exact percentages, merely me pulling figures out of my arse, before you start.
[/quote]
I wasn't going to say a word 😉
although clearly 60% dross isn't going to get you within 4 points of winning the league.
[/quote]
I'm exaggerating on all counts like, but that is our problem, we dont have enough match changing players, & the other players dont all consistently provide the solid hard work that would help offset that.
Same with utd, when i say 'talent' I mean that kind of talent that is consistently the difference between winning & losing a game. For me in Utd's squad that's Rooney, Evra, Van Der Sar, Giggs. We have Gerrard, Reina & Torres, & being painfully truthful Gerrard is in danger of coming off that cos he isnt doing consistently (that's not a dig in any way, but his performances are not consistent or anywhere near it this season).
[/quote]
okay, here's the thing, you talk about 'match changers' that's how rafa sees the squad, how someone can come off the bench to change the game when things have gone tits up. rafa should see the squad as equal individuals of people who all need time to play to get to a certain level. look at pre season he plays every motherfucker even the kids and then come the season he selects the same faces week in week out regardless of form, a total turn around from when he first arrived.
when rafa first arrived he heavily rotated the sqaud which meant we suffered in the early months and then finished strongly, every season he has rotated less and less and I don't think there was EVER a time when he rotated his'untouhables'.
I personally think there are only 4 players who should play regardless of form; pepe, carra, gerrard and torres. for different reasons invaluable in what they do. outside of that very select group I think every other position is fair game ESPECIALLY when that individual has been in a slump for weeks. if you're going to use the squad then fucking don't HAVE the squad and fucking cut down on the wage bill.
- Status
