it's as simple as this. . .

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38822.msg1051832#msg1051832 date=1265715919]

what happened to the decisive manager who rotated people in and out and made quick subs (the best example being the CL final).

If that's your best example, you're fucked. He was 3-0 down by half-time and had nothing to lose
[/quote]

has rafa always waited 65 mins to make changes? I seem to remember him making changes earlier when things were going tits up.

rafa really is a strange one, the crouch example, where a striker is in a slump (technically he wasn't in a slump he just wasn't scoring) rafa sticks beside him despite not scoring for 19 games, in that instance I could at least 'understand' it as we were getting points. the following season he rotates the hell out of him despite crouch (relatively) scoring for fun.

the case of kuyt is different, the striker was in a slump and we were losing points, the exact same thing happened last year at a similar time.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38822.msg1051839#msg1051839 date=1265716477]

No.. I think you're right. It's just a problem some have around here with accepting varying opinion.. they don't accept any middle ground either. You have to think a player is world class or plain shit. You can't rate a player but still be critical of him (or facet in him) at the same time.. and if you are modest enough to hold your hands up and say "perhaps I was wrong" or "he's NOW proven me wrong, he's one of the best" (even though before he WAS average at finishing to begin with), then somehow it's seen as cowardly or weakness and you were talking bollocks all along (apparently).

You need to update your Dirk "IRRELEVANT OF STARTING POSITION." goals analysis

[/quote]

Bad punctuation Brendan

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38822.msg1051839#msg1051839 date=1265716477]

No.. I think you're right. It's just a problem some have around here with accepting varying opinion.. they don't accept any middle ground either. You have to think a player is world class or plain shit. You can't rate a player but still be critical of him (or facet in him) at the same time.. and if you are modest enough to hold your hands up and say "perhaps I was wrong" or "he's NOW proven me wrong, he's one of the best" (even though before he WAS average at finishing to begin with), then somehow it's seen as cowardly or weakness and you were talking bollocks all along (apparently).

You need to update your Dirk "IRRELEVANT OF STARTING POSITION." goals analysis

[/quote]

What, after his latest goal from a corner?

The guy scores goals irrelevant of starting position.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051850#msg1051850 date=1265716895]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38822.msg1051839#msg1051839 date=1265716477]

No.. I think you're right. It's just a problem some have around here with accepting varying opinion.. they don't accept any middle ground either. You have to think a player is world class or plain shit. You can't rate a player but still be critical of him (or facet in him) at the same time.. and if you are modest enough to hold your hands up and say "perhaps I was wrong" or "he's NOW proven me wrong, he's one of the best" (even though before he WAS average at finishing to begin with), then somehow it's seen as cowardly or weakness and you were talking bollocks all along (apparently).

You need to update your Dirk "IRRELEVANT OF STARTING POSITION." goals analysis

[/quote]

What after his latest goal from a corner?

The guy scores goals irrelevant of starting position.
[/quote]

people used that to bash cisse 'oh, his 19 goals weren't all scored from the right wing'

who cares what his starting position was?!

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38822.msg1051839#msg1051839 date=1265716477]

No.. I think you're right. It's just a problem some have around here with accepting varying opinion.. they don't accept any middle ground either. You have to think a player is world class or plain shit. You can't rate a player but still be critical of him (or facet in him) at the same time.. and if you are modest enough to hold your hands up and say "perhaps I was wrong" or "he's NOW proven me wrong, he's one of the best" (even though before he WAS average at finishing to begin with), then somehow it's seen as cowardly or weakness and you were talking bollocks all along (apparently).

You need to update your Dirk "IRRELEVANT OF STARTING POSITION." goals analysis

[/quote]

Was that Ibro who posted that?
That analysis was pointless, who cares about starting positions, goals are goals.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38822.msg1051851#msg1051851 date=1265717078]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051850#msg1051850 date=1265716895]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38822.msg1051839#msg1051839 date=1265716477]

No.. I think you're right. It's just a problem some have around here with accepting varying opinion.. they don't accept any middle ground either. You have to think a player is world class or plain shit. You can't rate a player but still be critical of him (or facet in him) at the same time.. and if you are modest enough to hold your hands up and say "perhaps I was wrong" or "he's NOW proven me wrong, he's one of the best" (even though before he WAS average at finishing to begin with), then somehow it's seen as cowardly or weakness and you were talking bollocks all along (apparently).

You need to update your Dirk "IRRELEVANT OF STARTING POSITION." goals analysis

[/quote]

people used that to bash cisse 'oh, his 19 goals weren't all scored from the right wing'

who cares what his starting position was?!

What after his latest goal from a corner?

The guy scores goals irrelevant of starting position.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Yeah, exactly. But then his 19 goals weren't used a definitive proof that he was a good right winger either. In fact, Cisse was quite shit out there and he got more goals.

Kuyt would get goals anywhere on the pitch thus one can't say that just his goals make him a good player there which was the point of the analysis (when taken into the context of that particular thread at that time).

 

[ILD]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38822.msg1051831#msg1051831 date=1265715813]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=38822.msg1051827#msg1051827 date=1265715383]
I'm a huge Dirkaholic but I think LTW is taking a bit of an unfair bashing. He does seem to have a slight agenda regarding Kuyt but some people are trying to insinuate that he doesn't rate Dirk at all. He suggested that he should be rotated during periods of poor form, hardly a scathing attack. I have advocated Dirk to play every game in the past as he is the best option on the right and I love what he brings to us. Long Live The Dirk.

Same with the Rooney saga, he stated many times that Rooney was a great player but questioned his finishing abilities. Hardly that scathing either. I'm sure some questioned Torres and his finishing ability before he came here and he proved the doubter wrong. Rooney has proved LTW wrong in that aspect too. Rooney is a terrific player, obviously, possibly best in the world right now but a question mark did hang over his head at one time whether he could score 20+ goal in a league campaign. With Ronaldo gone, Rooney has certainly stepped up to the plate and is scoring right left and centre. He has proved he can score 20+ goals in the league, he has 23 already and we are only in February. I'm sure LTW realised that Rooney was also a fantastic player and was even world class when he questioned his finishing ability in the old threads. Questioning one facet of a players game isn't insinuating he isn't a great player.

Disclaimer : I will take this (defence of LTW) back if LTW was in fact naive enough not to rate Rooney as one of the best players in the world. Surely that is not the case. Is it?

[/quote]

Ha ha ... where to begin ...

I thought Rooney (though Adu was a better prospect, right Glockie? 🙂) was a magnificent player, just not a great striker. I'll be honest, I don't think I rated him as one of the 'best' players in the world (ie Messi, Kaka, Ronaldo, Gerrard, Torres level) but I think this year he's sadly there.
[/quote]

Rooney was always class, it is okay to question a facet of his game but if you also realise that even with 'poor finishing' he was still a very very very good player at the time. You have stated that you thought he was a great player so I don't see the need for continued bashing of you.

I hate when the forum turns into a point scoring crusade but in the predictions thread at start of the season, I predicted Rooney to get close to if not over 20 league goals. I had a feeling he would step up to the plate in lieu of Ronaldo. The Cunt.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38822.msg1051851#msg1051851 date=1265717078]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051850#msg1051850 date=1265716895]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38822.msg1051839#msg1051839 date=1265716477]

No.. I think you're right. It's just a problem some have around here with accepting varying opinion.. they don't accept any middle ground either. You have to think a player is world class or plain shit. You can't rate a player but still be critical of him (or facet in him) at the same time.. and if you are modest enough to hold your hands up and say "perhaps I was wrong" or "he's NOW proven me wrong, he's one of the best" (even though before he WAS average at finishing to begin with), then somehow it's seen as cowardly or weakness and you were talking bollocks all along (apparently).

You need to update your Dirk "IRRELEVANT OF STARTING POSITION." goals analysis

[/quote]

What after his latest goal from a corner?

The guy scores goals irrelevant of starting position.
[/quote]

people used that to bash cisse 'oh, his 19 goals weren't all scored from the right wing'

who cares what his starting position was?!
[/quote]

I think the majority of his doubters were more focused on his meagre return in the league, and the over-emphasis of goals scored against second rate clubs in cup competitions.

 

[Mike Hunt]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051860#msg1051860 date=1265717780]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38822.msg1051851#msg1051851 date=1265717078]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051850#msg1051850 date=1265716895]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38822.msg1051839#msg1051839 date=1265716477]

No.. I think you're right. It's just a problem some have around here with accepting varying opinion.. they don't accept any middle ground either. You have to think a player is world class or plain shit. You can't rate a player but still be critical of him (or facet in him) at the same time.. and if you are modest enough to hold your hands up and say "perhaps I was wrong" or "he's NOW proven me wrong, he's one of the best" (even though before he WAS average at finishing to begin with), then somehow it's seen as cowardly or weakness and you were talking bollocks all along (apparently).

You need to update your Dirk "IRRELEVANT OF STARTING POSITION." goals analysis

[/quote]

people used that to bash cisse 'oh, his 19 goals weren't all scored from the right wing'

who cares what his starting position was?!

What after his latest goal from a corner?

The guy scores goals irrelevant of starting position.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Yeah, exactly. But then his 19 goals weren't used a definitive proof that he was a good right winger either. In fact, Cisse was quite shit out there and he got more goals.

Kuyt would get goals anywhere on the pitch thus one can't say that just his goals make him a good player there which was the point of the analysis (when taken into the context of that particular thread at that time).
[/quote]
Who said that it was just his goals that make him a good player?

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1051872#msg1051872 date=1265718241]
Who said that it was just his goals that make him a good player?
[/quote]

On that particular thread, his goals were being used as the barometer as to why he was a good right winger by the OP and Oncy (i believe).

I disagreed and believe he's a much better forward player (where many of his open play goals have been scored from). That so-called "analysis" as some put it (when it's really just a breakdown of his goals) showed that most of his goals were poachers efforts from setplays and he'd have scored them if he were played at right back (due to his natural poacher's instincts). It's those instincts that make me believe he'd be better upfront once we get a more talented right winger.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38822.msg1051870#msg1051870 date=1265718154]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38822.msg1051851#msg1051851 date=1265717078]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051850#msg1051850 date=1265716895]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38822.msg1051839#msg1051839 date=1265716477]

No.. I think you're right. It's just a problem some have around here with accepting varying opinion.. they don't accept any middle ground either. You have to think a player is world class or plain shit. You can't rate a player but still be critical of him (or facet in him) at the same time.. and if you are modest enough to hold your hands up and say "perhaps I was wrong" or "he's NOW proven me wrong, he's one of the best" (even though before he WAS average at finishing to begin with), then somehow it's seen as cowardly or weakness and you were talking bollocks all along (apparently).

You need to update your Dirk "IRRELEVANT OF STARTING POSITION." goals analysis

[/quote]

What after his latest goal from a corner?

The guy scores goals irrelevant of starting position.
[/quote]

people used that to bash cisse 'oh, his 19 goals weren't all scored from the right wing'

who cares what his starting position was?!
[/quote]

I think the majority of his doubters were more focused on his meagre return in the league, and the over-emphasis of goals scored against second rate clubs in cup competitions.
[/quote]

seeing as we are out of all the cup competitions we certainly could use a cup flat track bully

 

[Mike Hunt]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051882#msg1051882 date=1265718730]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1051872#msg1051872 date=1265718241]
Who said that it was just his goals that make him a good player?
[/quote]

On that particular thread, his goals were being used as the barometer as to why he was a good right winger by the OP and Oncy (i believe).

I disagreed and believe he's a much better forward player (where many of his open play goals have been scored from). That so-called "analysis" as some put it (when it's really just a breakdown of his goals) showed that most of his goals were poachers efforts from setplays and he'd have scored them if he were played at right back (due to his natural poacher's instincts). It's those instincts that make me believe he'd be better upfront once we get a more talented right winger.
[/quote]
Well that's just a bit stupid as we play with one striker and that striker is amongst the best players in the world.

He isn't gonna be a starting striker for us. He is a very good right winger though. That is due to his goals, his all round play, not to mention his defensive capabilities.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051882#msg1051882 date=1265718730]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1051872#msg1051872 date=1265718241]
Who said that it was just his goals that make him a good player?
[/quote]

On that particular thread, his goals were being used as the barometer as to why he was a good right winger by the OP and Oncy (i believe).

I disagreed and believe he's a much better forward player (where many of his open play goals have been scored from). That so-called "analysis" as some put it (when it's really just a breakdown of his goals) showed that most of his goals were poachers efforts from setplays and he'd have scored them if he were played at right back (due to his natural poacher's instincts). It's those instincts that make me believe he'd be better upfront once we get a more talented right winger.
[/quote]Certainly A barometer but never THE barometer.
The argument that he can't play there is laughable when he has played there for 3 years and gets a bunch of goals and assists from there ASWELL as all the other stuff he does that is innarguable.
He's a far better rw than most give him credit for.

I draw the line at rm (442) where he is generally horrible.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1051889#msg1051889 date=1265719026]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051882#msg1051882 date=1265718730]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1051872#msg1051872 date=1265718241]
Who said that it was just his goals that make him a good player?
[/quote]

On that particular thread, his goals were being used as the barometer as to why he was a good right winger by the OP and Oncy (i believe).

I disagreed and believe he's a much better forward player (where many of his open play goals have been scored from). That so-called "analysis" as some put it (when it's really just a breakdown of his goals) showed that most of his goals were poachers efforts from setplays and he'd have scored them if he were played at right back (due to his natural poacher's instincts). It's those instincts that make me believe he'd be better upfront once we get a more talented right winger.
[/quote]
Well that's just a bit stupid as we play with one striker and that striker is amongst the best players in the world.

He isn't gonna be a starting striker for us. He is a very good right winger though. That is due to his goals, his all round play, not to mention his defensive capabilities.
[/quote]

What's stupid? Or did you just want throw in a dig there?

How about a 442 with him and Nando? Dangerous I know, but perhaps if we played that more often we wouldn't struggle to score against the likes of Pompey and Wolves.

The rest I don't disagree with.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38822.msg1051899#msg1051899 date=1265719338]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051882#msg1051882 date=1265718730]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1051872#msg1051872 date=1265718241]
Who said that it was just his goals that make him a good player?
[/quote]

On that particular thread, his goals were being used as the barometer as to why he was a good right winger by the OP and Oncy (i believe).

I disagreed and believe he's a much better forward player (where many of his open play goals have been scored from). That so-called "analysis" as some put it (when it's really just a breakdown of his goals) showed that most of his goals were poachers efforts from setplays and he'd have scored them if he were played at right back (due to his natural poacher's instincts). It's those instincts that make me believe he'd be better upfront once we get a more talented right winger.
[/quote]Certainly A barometer but never THE barometer.
The argument that he can't play there is laughable when he has played there for 3 years and gets a bunch of goals and assists from there ASWELL as all the other stuff he does that is innarguable.
He's a far better rw than most give him credit for.

I draw the line at rm (442) where he is generally horrible.
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that's the conclusion we all came around to.

 

[Mike Hunt]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051907#msg1051907 date=1265719552]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1051889#msg1051889 date=1265719026]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051882#msg1051882 date=1265718730]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1051872#msg1051872 date=1265718241]
Who said that it was just his goals that make him a good player?
[/quote]

On that particular thread, his goals were being used as the barometer as to why he was a good right winger by the OP and Oncy (i believe).

I disagreed and believe he's a much better forward player (where many of his open play goals have been scored from). That so-called "analysis" as some put it (when it's really just a breakdown of his goals) showed that most of his goals were poachers efforts from setplays and he'd have scored them if he were played at right back (due to his natural poacher's instincts). It's those instincts that make me believe he'd be better upfront once we get a more talented right winger.
[/quote]
Well that's just a bit stupid as we play with one striker and that striker is amongst the best players in the world.

He isn't gonna be a starting striker for us. He is a very good right winger though. That is due to his goals, his all round play, not to mention his defensive capabilities.
[/quote]

How about a 442 with him and Nando? Dangerous I know, but perhaps if we played that more often we wouldn't struggle to score against the likes of Pompey and Wolves.

[/quote]

That could work.

Has Benitez ever tried 4-4-2 with Mascherano and Gerrard in the middle after that disastrous Porto game? Maybe worth a go now that we have a bona fide right winger in Maxi.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1051925#msg1051925 date=1265719992]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051907#msg1051907 date=1265719552]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1051889#msg1051889 date=1265719026]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38822.msg1051882#msg1051882 date=1265718730]
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38822.msg1051872#msg1051872 date=1265718241]
Who said that it was just his goals that make him a good player?
[/quote]

On that particular thread, his goals were being used as the barometer as to why he was a good right winger by the OP and Oncy (i believe).

I disagreed and believe he's a much better forward player (where many of his open play goals have been scored from). That so-called "analysis" as some put it (when it's really just a breakdown of his goals) showed that most of his goals were poachers efforts from setplays and he'd have scored them if he were played at right back (due to his natural poacher's instincts). It's those instincts that make me believe he'd be better upfront once we get a more talented right winger.
[/quote]
Well that's just a bit stupid as we play with one striker and that striker is amongst the best players in the world.

He isn't gonna be a starting striker for us. He is a very good right winger though. That is due to his goals, his all round play, not to mention his defensive capabilities.
[/quote]

How about a 442 with him and Nando? Dangerous I know, but perhaps if we played that more often we wouldn't struggle to score against the likes of Pompey and Wolves.

[/quote]

That could work.

Has Benitez ever tried 4-4-2 with Mascherano and Gerrard in the middle after that disastrous Porto game? Maybe worth a go now that we have a bona fide right winger in Maxi.
[/quote]

Against Reading (1st leg) he gave it a go (the formation, not the CM pairing). Wasn't very successful, but then we had Aurelio at LM, Lucas in the centre and N'Gog upfront. I'd like to see him try it with Maxi on the right, Riera on the left and the Gerrard-Mascher CM pairing.. Kuyt and Torres upfront. Not sure if we've ever had them all fit, so that may be an excuse (certainly since Maxi arrived).

 

[Biggus Dickus]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38822.msg1051738#msg1051738 date=1265710347]

I don't think anyone is of the opinion that Dirk should *never* be dropped. Of course there will be times that a player is left out of the team because of form, fitness, or the need for a rest. Certainly there were times earlier this season that Kuyt appeared to be in such a fugue that a spell on the bench seemed a logical move.

But I think what Ryan is trying to say is that he can see some of the reason *why* Benitez doesn't do it, because he offers so many things to the team that are important. And in any case, Benitez doing/ not doing something that appears logical to most is hardly any great fucking surprise.

As for never dropping him, I probably *would* bench Dirk occasionally, but at the moment we don't exactly have any better options and nor have we had any since he's been here, because contrary to oft-held belief, Dirk Kuyt is a good player, and always has been.
[/quote]

Pretty hard to debate it when its given short shrift by the likes of you. Some of us would like to debate some football. Lets face it, Rafa probably does have a reason for doing it. Why not talk about it as opposed to deriding it?