I want to win shit...

[Hansern]

I'm struggling to see the purpose of your thread Modo? Do you want us to shut up shop, sell Anfield and form an Ice hockey club instead?
We've been dealt the cards we have as a club, not much else we can do at the moment other than hope that Klopp can win us some trophies with the approach he and the owners have set. Although its to much joy and amusement even to our own fans, which I find a bit weird in all honesty.

Unless we get bought by some megarich gazillonaire owner, we aint competing with City financially. Its not hard to understand.

Coutinho wanting a move to Barcelona isnt much of a surprise in all honesty. Hazard wants a move to Real, Courtouis wants a move to Real, Ronaldo went to Real, De Gea wanted a move to Real. I doubt any player in the Premiership would say no to Real and Barca.
They have a pulling power on players that goes far beyond winning trophies.

But yes, we need to start winning something or Salah, Mane, Firmino or Keita will fuck off as well. I dont think anyone disagrees about that.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Must be tougher to be a Liverpool player than a Liverpool fan ... For a while, I thought Modo was really in trouble - now I know there's hope for him too.

 

[LFD]

All of the players in our first team will be lucky to win ONE or two trophies in their career if they stay with us.

Pretty sure Klopp's idea is to win things.

That's the challenge.

The more players in the Keita, VVD, Salah, Mane bracket - which our manager signed, the more chance of success.

We're not the finished article yet under Klopp. Coutinho had been at our club for many years and wasn't prepared to wait, plus he wanted to join his dream club.

Salah's quotes suggests he's prepared to wait some time, I'm sure Keita will too. VVD has only just joined. Hopefully Klopp can add to that outstanding pool to enhance our chances.

But for fans to just assume we aren't going to win things in the future... that doesn't sit right with me. We need to believe!

 

[mark1975]

I agree to an extent Mark but the problem is the comment is deeper than Coutinho going right?

Our best player has gone to Barcelona because he believes he will win stuff there. And not here.

That's the long and short of it.

All of the players in our first team will be lucky to win ONE or two trophies in their career if they stay with us.

Coutinho will win 2 this year in Spain.
Can will win 2 next year in Italy or Germany.

Aye I know this, it's just not something I wish to condone or encourage when it comes to our players, call me selfish but that's the way it goes.

 

[moron]

What? This seems inexplicably at odds with the 'project' we have going on here almost certain to end up with trophies by the vanload.

The word 'project' at various stages was known as the 5-year plan, I think GH introduced it and I fucking hate it. Back then we could have and should have bought what we needed an gone for the title. In many respects this 'project' has been going on for like over 20 years. We are still no where nearer to achieving the project goals - to use a common project management term - we seem to have a bit of a scope creep !!!!

 

[Modo]

I'm struggling to see the purpose of your thread Modo? Do you want us to shut up shop, sell Anfield and form an Ice hockey club instead?
We've been dealt the cards we have as a club, not much else we can do at the moment other than hope that Klopp can win us some trophies with the approach he and the owners have set. Although its to much joy and amusement even to our own fans, which I find a bit weird in all honesty.

Unless we get bought by some megarich gazillonaire owner, we aint competing with City financially. Its not hard to understand.

Coutinho wanting a move to Barcelona isnt much of a surprise in all honesty. Hazard wants a move to Real, Courtouis wants a move to Real, Ronaldo went to Real, De Gea wanted a move to Real. I doubt any player in the Premiership would say no to Real and Barca.
They have a pulling power on players that goes far beyond winning trophies.

But yes, we need to start winning something or Salah, Mane, Firmino or Keita will fuck off as well. I dont think anyone disagrees about that.

The purpose of the thread? Only to highlight what I've said before, that players are leaving because they don't think they can win anything at LFC.
You know what I want us to do? Demand results from the manager.

 

[Fabio]

The purpose of the thread? Only to highlight what I've said before, that players are leaving because they don't think they can win anything at LFC.
You know what I want us to do? Demand results from the manager.

It's not just the manager though, the players need to give a shit too, and coutinho was a shithouse who couldn't be arsed in finals

Overall the teams good enough to win a trophy or 2 every couple of years, but it's the consistency that's the kicker.

There's no point beating Dortmund and putting in a great game, only to give up against Sevilla.

Same for the league cup, and same for the league.

It's a team sport, you can't just turn up and expect to win shit, unless you're playing for Barca where 1) Messi can put in a shit performance and still be man of the match, and 2) Suarez who never gives less that 100% and is pretty incredible.

Prob one of the reasons why he's gone there. Can be a shithouse all he wants and win stuff.

 

[Modo]

It's not just the manager though, the players need to give a shit too, and coutinho was a shithouse who couldn't be arsed in finals

Overall the teams good enough to win a trophy or 2 every couple of years, but it's the consistency that's the kicker.

There's no point beating Dortmund and putting in a great game, only to give up against Sevilla.

Same for the league cup, and same for the league.

It's a team sport, you can't just turn up and expect to win shit, unless you're playing for Barca where 1) Messi can put in a shit performance and still be man of the match, and 2) Suarez who never gives less that 100% and is pretty incredible.

Prob one of the reasons why he's gone there. Can be a shithouse all he wants and win stuff.

Well that's exactly the thing, I want us to be in a position where we can win without everyone being on top form.
If you remember the season Suarez almost carried us to the title, he was absolutely knackered towards the end of that season and barely scored in the last few league games.
I'd like to see our midfield win us games, I'd fucking love to see our defence win us games like Barca away when Bellamy scored, or Real away when Benayoun got us the winner.

 

[Fabio]

Well that's exactly the thing, I want us to be in a position where we can win without everyone being on top form.
If remember the season Suarez almost carried us to the title, he absolutely knackered towards the end of the season and barely scored in the last league games.
I'd like to see our midfield win us games, I'd fucking love to see our defence win us games like the Barca away, when Bellamy scored, or Real away when Benayoun got us the winner.

So you want Rafa then

Or rather, you want players of a certain quality throughout the side that we've not seen since Rafa started dismantling the squad

The latter won't happen overnight. It's down to individuals to want to stay and win trophies with us. If they don't, they're not committed and can fuck off

I don't like losing our best players, it's shit. But in the case of coutinho, his inconsistency married up to his work ethic , and now we see that he really couldn't be arsed putting the graft in, hence easy life in Barca

 

[Frogfish]

Well that's exactly the thing, I want us to be in a position where we can win without everyone being on top form.

You know what I want us to do? Demand results from the manager.

That however, is naive in the current environment. We can bitch and moan all we like but the fact remains that the top teams in Europe can now spend x2 - x3 our budget.

So 'demanding' that Klopp (or any manager) comes in and starts winning things is a pipedream. Not that we can't, one poor 2nd half performance (from an otherwise superb campaign) and a penalty shoot-out cost us two trophies, however those opportunities are likely to be few and far between, and it won't come down to any fault of the manager just pure economics.

 

[Modo]

So you want Rafa then

Or rather, you want players of a certain quality throughout the side that we've not seen since Rafa started dismantling the squad

The latter won't happen overnight. It's down to individuals to want to stay and win trophies with us. If they don't, they're not committed and can fuck off

I don't like losing our best players, it's shit. But in the case of coutinho, his inconsistency married up to his work ethic , and now we see that he really couldn't be arsed putting the graft in, hence easy life in Barca

Rafa was gifted a few good player, he added Mascherano, Alonso, Torres and others. Would be stupid of me to say that Klopp has it easier, but Rafa did get us in big ears with two almost unknown players coming in and us losing Owen.
Anyway, back to Klopp. Is winning Swansea and WBA too much to ask?

 

[LeTallecWiz]

So you want Rafa then

Or rather, you want players of a certain quality throughout the side that we've not seen since Rafa started dismantling the squad

The latter won't happen overnight. It's down to individuals to want to stay and win trophies with us. If they don't, they're not committed and can fuck off

I don't like losing our best players, it's shit. But in the case of coutinho, his inconsistency married up to his work ethic , and now we see that he really couldn't be arsed putting the graft in, hence easy life in Barca

Well investigated sir ...

 

[Modo]

That however, is naive in the current environment. We can bitch and moan all we like but the fact remains that the top teams in Europe can now spend x2 - x3 our budget.

So 'demanding' that Klopp (or any manager) comes in and starts winning things is a pipedream. Not that we can't, one poor 2nd half performance (from an otherwise superb campaign) and a penalty shoot-out cost us two trophies, however those opportunities are likely to be few and far between, and it won't come down to any fault of the manager just pure economics.

It's the little things, Rafa managed to identify some hidden prospects in Spain. We were linked to Silva, Martinez, Villa etc.
We ended up with Alonso, Garcia, Arbeloa, Reina etc.
I thought Klopp was going to do the same.

 

[Fabio]

Anyway, back to Klopp. Is winning Swansea and WBA too much to ask?

No, but you could levy the same arguments against Rafa very easily

 

[mark1975]

The purpose of the thread? Only to highlight what I've said before, that players are leaving because they don't think they can win anything at LFC.
You know what I want us to do? Demand results from the manager.

I don't think Klopp has always got it right, I think his transfer record is quite good but I don't think he's always prioritised well. People can applaud his patience for the right player, but it's cost us. Not identifying defensive reinforcements has cost us over the last two seasons. Many of us said in the Summer that it would and we've continued to drop soft points and crash out of two cups as a result, now we're saying we should have replaced Coutinho and had a plan in place before letting him go, we'll drop points because of that too. Yet many on here have inexplicably defended both sets of decisions. It's virtually impossible to defend something that sees you drop points and become weaker. However much you rate or don't rate Klopp.

Like this argument over whether we needed this much fabled 20+ goalscorer, with someone posting stats from this time last year, showing it's barely had an impact to our overall goals. The flip side of that is we've more or less stepped sideways since last season, it's not progression, it's maintaining the status quo, we still can't defend, we still score alot of goals, we're still around 4th place (which means we could finish 3rd or 6th, it's that close without that significant progression). That would be ok if it were reinforced, or compensated for by silverware, but we're out of both domestic cups and, with this defense, I don't see us progressing far in Europe.

I have alot of faith in him and think with the right resources and ambition, he can get us close, but a lack of ambitious spending from those above and a lack of foresight when it comes to strengthening problem positions, will be his and the clubs undoing. If the club don't show the financial ambition to back the best manager we could have got and one of the most sought after managers in the game, then we're only going to go downhill from here. And that's when the screw will turn on these fuckers.

As for Rafa, I get the sneaking feeling this thread was either about him or returning to your point about letting players go and "get their success". Rafa's not a significant improvement on Klopp at this stage (do players want to play for him more than Klopp these days?), and Coutinho is just the latest in a long line of top players who want to see significant improvement and chances of success, before it's too late. I don't blame them, but once they leave here they can rot as far as I'm concerned. At least with Suarez and Gerrard, one nearly got us the title and the other almost singlehandedly won us trophies. Coutinho was a tier below that, Barcelona are the ones who will see him at his very best, but in his defense, he gave us 5yrs and played in two fantastic forward lines, only to watch chumps at the back fuck it all up.

Only Klopp can stop the rot on that note.

 

[davud graham]

The squad we have is weak and not capable of competing in four competitions. Either the owners need to spend some money and improve our options from the bench and the squad or we need to stop selling our best players. There's no sign of either happening so Klopp has to keep giving shit players like Moreno and Karius second chances because he has no other options. As Mark says it stinks of just keeping it ticking over and maintaining a certain position in the league without the ambition of achieving anything more. FSG will point to record signings but that just masks the fact that we've brought in more money selling others so we continue to tread water.

 

[Modo]

No, but you could levy the same arguments against Rafa very easily

That's true, but at least we had a trophy or two.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

As for Rafa, I get the sneaking feeling this thread was either about him or returning to your point about letting players go and "get their success".

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Frogfish]

It's the little things, Rafa managed to identify some hidden prospects in Spain. We were linked to Silva, Martinez, Villa etc.
We ended up with Alonso, Garcia, Arbeloa, Reina etc.
I thought Klopp was going to do the same.

Even in the past 5 years we've seen the market change considerably, even an average PL team can go and splash £20-30m on a player so there are far far more scouting teams out there picking up the good players (Leicester and Saints to name but two, teams in Germany and Spain have a lot more money now too).

However, seriously ? You don't think we've got value for money in today's market with Mane, Salah, Robertson, VvD (every bit as good as those Rafa bought barring perhaps Alonso and even then he wasn't always great) and his bringing through the ranks of TAA & Gomez ?

There is very little difference at all and if there is it's slim and you have a very weak argument indeed.

 

[keniget]

We've reached this point because of the compounding failures of our previous management teams.

That still hasn't changed the fact that every Liverpool manager still faces huge pressure to succeed from the get go. What are we really going to achieve by "demanding results" more than we already are? We're not in a position to do that and I don't know that there is much we can do to change that in short term. We can try and work smarter, hire the best people... but then everyone is doing that, even the clubs with unlimited resources.

It wasn't so long ago that I (and I'm sure others too) began to feel that our time as a top club was done as we spent far more time out the top 4 and CL than in it.

The "we exist to win trophies" mantra is all well and good but right now we're fighting to exist (in a way that matters).

 

[Modo]

Even in the past 5 years we've seen the market change considerably, even an average PL team can go and splash £20-30m on a player so there are far far more scouting teams out there picking up the good players (Leicester and Saints to name but two, teams in Germany and Spain have a lot more money now too).

However, seriously ? You don't think we've got value for money in today's market with Mane, Salah, Robertson, VvD (every bit as good as those Rafa bought barring perhaps Alonso and even then he wasn't always great) and his bringing through the ranks of TAA & Gomez ?

There is very little difference at all and if there is it's slim and you have a very weak argument indeed.

No, not until they win us something.

 

[Ijg]

Without money these days in football you won’t win consistently.

The most successful team since 2005 has been Chelsea who have thrown money at the problem and won everything. City, thrown money at it and won the league and still fighting on 4 fronts.

I’m a bit of a romantic, and do see how a Leicester or Rafa at Valencia or Klopp at Dortmund can bring some success but nothing like we’ve seen at say Chelsea/City.

I want the club to win trophies, and not just the Carabao cup every few years, I want us challenging for the league and CL every year, and I don’t think with our current owners that will happen. We need a Jeff Bezos type rich motherfucker who’ll buy the club and just likes winning, and at the moment unless one of us lot become bitcoin billionaires I can’t see it happening.

 

[Modo]

I don't think Klopp has always got it right, I think his transfer record is quite good but I don't think he's always prioritised well. People can applaud his patience for the right player, but it's cost us. Not identifying defensive reinforcements has cost us over the last two seasons. Many of us said in the Summer that it would and we've continued to drop soft points and crash out of two cups as a result, now we're saying we should have replaced Coutinho and had a plan in place before letting him go, we'll drop points because of that too. Yet many on here have inexplicably defended both sets of decisions. It's virtually impossible to defend something that sees you drop points and become weaker. However much you rate or don't rate Klopp.

Like this argument over whether we needed this much fabled 20+ goalscorer, with someone posting stats from this time last year, showing it's barely had an impact to our overall goals. The flip side of that is we've more or less stepped sideways since last season, it's not progression, it's maintaining the status quo, we still can't defend, we still score alot of goals, we're still around 4th place (which means we could finish 3rd or 6th, it's that close without that significant progression). That would be ok if it were reinforced, or compensated for by silverware, but we're out of both domestic cups and, with this defense, I don't see us progressing far in Europe.

I have alot of faith in him and think with the right resources and ambition, he can get us close, but a lack of ambitious spending from those above and a lack of foresight when it comes to strengthening problem positions, will be his and the clubs undoing. If the club don't show the financial ambition to back the best manager we could have got and one of the most sought after managers in the game, then we're only going to go downhill from here. And that's when the screw will turn on these fuckers.

As for Rafa, I get the sneaking feeling this thread was either about him or returning to your point about letting players go and "get their success". Rafa's not a significant improvement on Klopp at this stage (do players want to play for him more than Klopp these days?), and Coutinho is just the latest in a long line of top players who want to see significant improvement and chances of success, before it's too late. I don't blame them, but once they leave here they can rot as far as I'm concerned. At least with Suarez and Gerrard, one nearly got us the title and the other almost singlehandedly won us trophies. Coutinho was a tier below that, Barcelona are the ones who will see him at his very best, but in his defense, he gave us 5yrs and played in two fantastic forward lines, only to watch chumps at the back fuck it all up.

Only Klopp can stop the rot on that note.

It's not a secret that I want Rafa back, but I'm not ready to see Klopp get sacked right now.
With regards to Coutinho leaving, yeah I still think we did the right thing which is to let him go. Like Klopp said there was no other alternative.

 

[hmmmmm1]

The purpose of the thread? Only to highlight what I've said before, that players are leaving because they don't think they can win anything at LFC.
You know what I want us to do? Demand results from the manager.

Klopp has a 6 year contract with us. he is under no pressure from fsg.

 

[manwithnoname]

The purpose of the thread? Only to highlight what I've said before, that players are leaving because they don't think they can win anything at LFC.
You know what I want us to do? Demand results from the manager.

How can we "demand" results from the manager? I don't think you could make a case that Klopp is underperforming. Who would you suggest that would do a better job?

What we need to demand is more fucking money from FSG, or - preferably - new super-rich owners who will throw money at Klopp until we fucking win the title. Because the issue isn't the manager, it's the owners.

 

[Modo]

How can we "demand" results from the manager? I don't think you could make a case that Klopp is underperforming. Who would you suggest that would do a better job?

What we need to demand is more fucking money from FSG, or - preferably - new super-rich owners who will throw money at Klopp until we fucking win the title. Because the issue isn't the manager, it's the owners.

Because it's frustrating to see that he hasn't managed to fix some glaring issues in our team.
Obviously, FSG aren't faultless.

 

[manwithnoname]

Because it's frustrating to see that he hasn't managed to fix some glaring issues in our team.
Obviously, FSG aren't without faultless.

OK, that's fair enough, but what manager doesn't have glaring issues in his team? Or make mistakes?
Even the mighty, unassailable genius Rafael "God" Benitez had those, and struggled to address them.

Naturally, he will always have Istanbul and the FA cup trophies to show for his glorious tenure (well, until that last season) but no team is perfect.

 

[Tinto]

Because it's frustrating to see that he hasn't managed to fix some glaring issues in our team.
Obviously, FSG aren't without faultless.

It took a very long time for Rafa to fix the goal scoring issues we had in his teams.

Yes, we won Big Ears and the FA Cup without a top quality goal scorer, but we had Gerrard at the peak of his power.

 

[Tinto]

OK, that's fair enough, but what manager doesn't have glaring issues in his team? Or make mistakes?
Even the mighty, unassailable genius Rafael "God" Benitez had those, and struggled to address them.

Naturally, he will always have Istanbul and the FA cup trophies to show for his glorious tenure (well, until that last season) but no team is perfect.

Sorry, trampled all over your post.

 

[Woland]

And we got to those finals with a lot of anti-football, which serves you better with a lack of resources. Klopp needs a different class of player to play in his system