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I *heart* Fernando Torres.

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[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42397.msg1214136#msg1214136 date=1289240297]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42397.msg1214127#msg1214127 date=1289239967]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42397.msg1214119#msg1214119 date=1289239672]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42397.msg1214116#msg1214116 date=1289239538]
it is worth noting though if you play torres like hulking target man he (torres) is going to look very ordinary, thus I blame torres' poor run on roy hodgson.
[/quote]

I think that's not too fair, the team were playing poorly but you could argue on the evidence of the last few games that they were getting used to the way we play, and Torres has been struggling with injuries for months.
[/quote]

roy was asking torres to;
* hold up the ball
* hold off challeges on his own (because he team mates were 20 yards away)
* play with his back to goal
* control hoofed punts up to him

in essense he wanted torres to become heskey. play to torres' strengths i.e. facing goal and there are few (if any) that are better in world football. I like torres return to form has less to do with fitness and more to do with the support he is receiving from team mates (because they are higher up the pitch) and the tempo we are playing at.
[/quote]

The first two points, is that any different to what Rafa did? They spoke about this on MOTD, up until a week ago he was trying to lay the ball off whenever he got it, turning away from goal, against Chelsea he was positive and went straight at them trying to shoot on sight. As though it was more a question of confidence that anything, lets not forget he hadn't been at his best for months which can psychologically take it out of the very best players.

Regards the hoofing, I don't know whether it was instructed, certainly in a few of the earlier games and of late we seem content to play our way out from the back when we can, there's always room for the occasional hoof when needs be, but generally someone would break from the back, either wide or forwards and look up for a pass.

Gerrard is looking better than he did at the start of the season and the same can be said for a few players, we're also benefiting from a stronger backfour which is providing a backbone for the rest of the team, it's also worth noting that as a unit we look alot better and it looks more and more like people know what jobs they're doing.

If this run continues I'm happy to assume that the terrible start was down to people being unfamiliar with the tactics. Now we've settled a bit we look like we're actually going somewhere, but this HAS to continue against Wigan.
[/quote]

in generally don't have problem with the odd direct ball but too many direct ball and you just become a rich man's wimbledon. I think playing such a style of football isn't going to get the best out of a striker like torres.
hence the reason I was (and still am to a lesser extent) worried roy will move for a burly target man in Jan.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42397.msg1214116#msg1214116 date=1289239538]
it is worth noting though if you play torres like hulking target man he (torres) is going to look very ordinary, thus I blame torres' poor run on roy hodgson.
[/quote]

I hope we get a top manager soon, but even I don't think HOdgson is trying to turn TOrres into Heskey.

Come on,Neil.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42397.msg1214140#msg1214140 date=1289240457]
Got to say aswell, I'm delighted to see the young lads getting a go, even if it is forced, he could easily have plumped for bringing on the likes of Jovanovic/Babel/Poulsen etc.
[/quote]

I think it was a reward for Spearing's and Shelvey's recent performances. Let them sample Anfield at it's very best.

It was a nice and deserved gesture.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=42397.msg1214139#msg1214139 date=1289240415]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42397.msg1214135#msg1214135 date=1289240281]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=42397.msg1214130#msg1214130 date=1289240086]
That's just pure speculative nonsense mate.

Torres has struggled because our midfield has been feeding him absolute scraps. I highly doubt Roy has told Roy to model his game on Kevin fucking Davies.
[/quote]

it's not about telling torres to change his game its about playing a style of football that is going to impact the striker.
if you drop deep the striker will become isolated.
if you are being more direct the striker will have to hold off challenges if he wants to control a long ball.
that's not speculation, that's a fact.
[/quote]

You just said Roy has being telling Torres to play like Emile Heskey and now "It's not a about telling Torres to change his game"!

Words are failing me.
[/quote]

what are you going on about? when I said 'asked him to change his game' I didn't mean LITERALLY I meant by the style of football he was utilising was forcing torres to pefrom in a certain way i.e. with his back to goal.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42397.msg1214145#msg1214145 date=1289240637]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42397.msg1214116#msg1214116 date=1289239538]
it is worth noting though if you play torres like hulking target man he (torres) is going to look very ordinary, thus I blame torres' poor run on roy hodgson.
[/quote]

I hope we get a top manager soon, but even I don't think HOdgson is trying to turn TOrres into Heskey.

Come on,Neil.
[/quote]

There's enough criticisms of Roy to be had without having to make up total bullshit too.

I guess it's a sign that flaws are harder to find when we're on a winning streak.

Still, it's staggering the lengths some people will go to.
 
Neil, I think you overplay the hoofing thing and exaggerate our lack of a ability to play. We're not Arsenal or Barcelona, but neither are Chelsea, stylistically speaking.
 
playing in a certain way brings the best out of torres, when that changes he struggles. look at torres for spain or when torres was at AM compared to torres for liverpool.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42397.msg1214152#msg1214152 date=1289240791]
Neil, I think you overplay the hoofing thing and exaggerate our lack of a ability to play. We're not Arsenal or Barcelona, but neither are Chelsea, stylistically speaking.
[/quote]

up until the last few games the football was a disgrace, I don't know why anyone would argue that point.
 
I'm not sure why you're pushing this so hard, Neil.

Torres is a top striker who's been playing in a team full of weaknesses; we've hardly controlled the midfield, and our flanks were a joke.

Any striker would have a bad time; this of course leads to all the comments about his poor attitude and how he should take a good hard look at himself etc etc..in a sense, it's a fair comment, but give him better support and he will deliver because he's quality.

You sound as if Hodgson is trying to re-create a bigman-smallman striking partnership.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42397.msg1214156#msg1214156 date=1289240892]
playing in a certain way brings the best out of torres, when that changes he struggles. look at torres for spain or when torres was at AM compared to torres for liverpool.
[/quote]

That's true, but you've expressed it in a weird way, and it isn't that dissimilar to my point about the midfield giving him little to work with.

Our midfield has recently had the confidence to zip the ball around on the floor and create more openings - Maxi's helped a lot with this - and this gives Torres the chance to show off his exemplary movement and create opportunities for himself.

You think Roy's been telling the team to hoof it to Torres and has suddenly switched his tactics. Whereas I believe the team has been grown in confidence and is starting to play the game Roy wants us to. I guess that's all there is to it.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42397.msg1214156#msg1214156 date=1289240892]
playing in a certain way brings the best out of torres, when that changes he struggles. look at torres for spain or when torres was at AM compared to torres for liverpool.
[/quote]

Yeah but Rafa utilised him in many ways, and one of them was as a target man, because however slight he is, physically he has good strength and the ability when needed to hold up the play, obviously not to the extent of someone like Kevin Davies, but then we don't hoof it all game either.

He's just had injuries and it's taken time for him to get over it, and his whole sulky-arse feeling sorry for himself attitude probably hasn't helped much either.
 
Torres was suffering from a chronic lack of self belief due to injury and loss of form.

His body language was all wrong and he wasn't enjoying his football.

Thank you Chelsea for giving Fernando a lift!
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42397.msg1214159#msg1214159 date=1289241049]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42397.msg1214152#msg1214152 date=1289240791]
Neil, I think you overplay the hoofing thing and exaggerate our lack of a ability to play. We're not Arsenal or Barcelona, but neither are Chelsea, stylistically speaking.
[/quote]

up until the last few games the football was a disgrace, I don't know why anyone would argue that point.
[/quote]

I'm not arguing that point, but you made the same arguments under Rafa and it wasn't always true, well not always to the extent you sometimes made out. This is the day after the Chelsea game and on the back of four wins, so I'm saying in general you can see the way we are 'trying' to play, that might not have been evident in the first half dozen league games, but like I said, it takes time.
 
OK, i was a little tired last night. N'gog is not exactly a world-clas striker, and i'm not expecting him to be, but his lack of finishing prowess worries me. As shown against Napoli and countless other sides, he gets himself into fantastic positions yet constrives to hit it wide or straight at the keeper. Obviously, like against Arsenal he is capable of a great goal but it unfortunately comes at vital moments all too little. It's perfectly fine scoring against the Rabotnicki's and Trabzonspors of this world but if you need a consistent striker who merits a starting berth, then someone who keeps on missing so many chances isn't always worth the patience. Thank fuck we've got Torres.
 
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=42397.msg1214259#msg1214259 date=1289254007]
OK, i was a little tired last night. N'gog is not exactly a world-clas striker, and i'm not expecting him to be, but his lack of finishing prowess worries me. As shown against Napoli and countless other sides, he gets himself into fantastic positions yet constrives to hit it wide or straight at the keeper. Obviously, like against Arsenal he is capable of a great goal but it unfortunately comes at vital moments all too little. It's perfectly fine scoring against the Rabotnicki's and Trabzonspors of this world but if you need a consistent striker who merits a starting berth, then someone who keeps on missing so many chances isn't always worth the patience. Thank fuck we've got Torres.
[/quote]

n'gog has done well this season given the amount of starts he has had. he is 21 years old and still learning.
 
Agree with that, he is learning..

The point is we need a quality striker with good finishing now, and it ain't him.
 
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=42397.msg1214079#msg1214079 date=1289237300]
no.
[/quote]

Yes he is.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42397.msg1214288#msg1214288 date=1289258028]
Agree with that, he is learning..

The point is we need a quality striker with good finishing now, and it ain't him.
[/quote]

N'gog is a young talent learning his trade under the hardest circumstances. Show me another 21 year old striker who can lead the line in the Premiership? He's doing with aplomb and scores goals everytime he is called upon. What more can we ask of him?

Let him partner Torres and see how quickly he develops.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42397.msg1214255#msg1214255 date=1289253296]
Hasn't N'Gog scored more than Torres?
[/quote]

N'gog has more in Europa, Torres has more in the EPL
 
New Reds owners pledge to mould a team around Torres

Liverpool's new owners have told Fernando Torres they want to build the future of the club around him.

John Henry and Thomas Werner, the major shareholders in NESV who now own the Anfield club, have held a series of meetings with their top stars designed to map out a clear plan for the future.

And, following intense speculation that world class striker Torres has considered quitting the Merseyside outfit because of a lack of investment, they have made clear that money WILL be spent to pursue trophies.

Torres and keeper Pepe Reina have been the subject of some fevered rumour suggesting both will look to exploit the current uncertainty to engineer moves in the January transfer window.


Reina has a clause in his contract allowing him to leave for £20million. Despite suggestions to the contrary, Torres has no such clause, but he has been visibly unhappy with events over the past 12 months as Liverpool have slipped from grace.

On Sunday though, the striker returned to his imperious form with two brilliant goals to defeat Chelsea, and that came soon after talks with the new owners.

They want to clear the air with their top players like Torres, Reina and skipper Steven Gerrard, and confirm the players' long-term commitment to the club.

It is understood that there was no discussion over contracts, because all three big name stars have deals which will keep them at the club until 2015, but there were serious discussions about the direction the club will take.

Torres has his frustration over a lack of investment be known, and he has made it clear he wants to see the club progressing swiftly over the next 12 months.

Both Werner and Henry have offered those assurances, as they look to offload some of the highly paid fringe players accumulated under the previous regime, who contribute little to the first team.

They will clear the way over the next 12 months to spend big wage money on some rising young stars who can offer Liverpool a much brighter future.

It seems Torres is feeling reassured by what he heard, with his performance against Chelsea suggesting he is much happier and settled, and the new owners are confident that all three stars are ready to commit long term to Liverpool now.

While Torres was the star of the show on Sunday, it was a fine team effort by Liverpool, with manager Roy Hodgson outsmarting his opposite number Carlo Ancelotti in the fascinating tactical battle.

The Reds had heroes all over the pitch, and afterwards Dirk Kuyt, who shone for the Anfield side with an energetic display, insisted that critics shouldn't concentrate too closely on the form of Torres.

He believes the striker was condemned too heavily for a lack of form when the whole team was suffering, and he added:

"We say in Holland 'one and one is two' which means when the team plays well, the striker plays well. That's what happened with Fernando."

"It was a great result against Chelsea, and most important of all a great team effort. Even when Chelsea did well in the second half we defended like a team.

"We are playing better every week and we have now won four games in a row. The quality and the strength is coming back into the team and we are improving all the time."

It is a feeling echoed by midfielder Lucas Leiva, who was outstanding against Chelsea, and has finally won over Anfield after two years of torture at the hands of sceptical Reds fans.

The Brazilian has shone for his country after securing a regular place for the Samba Stars, and now finally has reproduced that form for his club side.

And Lucas believes the display against Chelsea shows that Liverpool are ready to display their true form, after rediscovering their confidence in recent weeks...which echoes his own experience.

"We believe again. That is the main thing. We have played with intensity and we are happy," he explained.

"But we are not in the position that we want to be. We want to be much higher up the table but we have to keep going - and we have the belief that we can.

"For me, I'm getting older and I think I am getting better. When you get more experience, you feel important and you want to do more. I'm really pleased with how I have played in the last few games and the team is winning. When that happens, everyone has a better performance."

While the seems a fresh sense of good news around Anfield, there was one blow yesterday, with confirmation that defender Daniel Agger could be out until the New Year with a calf problem.
 
offload highly paid fringe players? like?
okay, babel is an obvious name, and then?
I think it's worth pointing out that
poulsen
aurelio
and cole
highly paid, contributed little and signed on the current manager's watch.
 
Cole isn't a fringe player.

But others, that are on high wages and could be moved on are:

Babel
Aurelio ( pay as you play contract I believe)
Agger
Poulsen
Soto
Aquilani (Juve will probably purchase him after the loan deal)
Jovanovic
Degen (when his loan deal is finished, he's injured again and Stuttgart will be mad to sign him permanently)

Maybe Konchesky, but he is for now our starting left back.
 
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=42397.msg1214390#msg1214390 date=1289288940]
Cole isn't a fringe player.

But others, that are on high wages and could be moved on are:

Babel
Aurelio ( pay as you play contract I believe)
Agger
Poulsen
Soto
Aquilani (Juve will probably purchase him after the loan deal)
Jovanovic
Degen (when his loan deal is finished, he's injured again and Stuttgart will be mad to sign him permanently)

Maybe Konchesky, but he is for now our starting left back.
[/quote]

that doesn't look like a lot to me and certainly not to the extent that would give us supposedly the 4th highest wage bill in the league. I thing that stands out to me is babel and aqua aside the above are psuhing on abit so the combination of age and high wages will make it them difficult to offload.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42397.msg1214394#msg1214394 date=1289289869]
Plus the fact that Babel usually refuses to go to anywhere that actually wants him.
[/quote]

I don't think it will be difficult to move babel on, I don't think his wages are that high the stumbling block will be the price the club charge for him and that's not his fault.
 
Do you actually know what he's on,Neil?

The offer he refused was 9 million from Brum, I think.

What would be a fair figure in your opinion?
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42397.msg1214402#msg1214402 date=1289290390]
Do you actually know what he's on,Neil?

The offer he refused was 9 million from Brum, I think.

What would be a fair figure in your opinion?
[/quote]

9 mil is a fair price for babel but in january clubs will be looking to pay around 7m especially given that he isn't playing.
as for the rest I can't see us offloading them only loaning them out because of their age and wages.
 
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=42397.msg1214381#msg1214381 date=1289286748]

Reina has a clause in his contract allowing him to leave for £20million.

[/quote]

Hope to fuck this is bollocks.

There's no way I'd sell him for that
 
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