Nah, I haven't.
Hull / Season post-mortem
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Nah, I haven't.
No
Criticism of Klopp seems a tad unfair. This is a manager that's brought us to a Uefa cup final already. His pedigree is top class and we'd be hard pressed to find a better manager -- so passionate and driven.
What's worrying is everyone toeing the corporate line: hard to sign players in Jan, no one will sell. Feels very contrived and highly disingenuous. The facts don't lie: we've effectively had our two trasfer windows compacted into a single summer spree since 2013. The only Jan buy since Coutinho and Sturridge has been Grujic (immediately shipped back on loan).
What can Klopp do but shut up and work with it?
I pity the manager whose wings are effectively clipped by this Jan transfer no-fly zone.
What's worrying is everyone toeing the corporate line: hard to sign players in Jan, no one will sell. Feels very contrived and highly disingenuous. The facts don't lie: we've effectively had our two trasfer windows compacted into a single summer spree since 2013. The only Jan buy since Coutinho and Sturridge has been Grujic (immediately shipped back on loan).
What can Klopp do but shut up and work with it?
I pity the manager whose wings are effectively clipped by this Jan transfer no-fly zone.
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I see what you say and of course we want better all over. But for periods we have had no problems keeping clean sheets and when attackers get back to form and have a few games together we will score plenty. The problem with midfield is the lack of steel to close down counters and protect the defence better. Hendo is the most defensive of them and he is no Kante... we are attacking in numbers and that gives openings to hurt us on the counter. We need a Mascherano type (and quality) to stop these. As long as games are tied 0-0 we have a good chance of winning them. But to often we are giving away a soft goal making us chase a game.
He's not, and he is not quite a good advanced one, either. When there is space, he's a good shuttler of the ball but without it, he's average.
He's not the only one who shies from tackling, mind. The entire central midfield is mainly a bunch of fannies who merely wave opponents through with every turnover looking a certain goal.
He is if you have an agenda
But that's more due to the dynamic of the midfield and the combination of players used. He's scored goals before but is now deeper in the midfield, so he's going to score less. What we do need in the midfield is someone with an eye for a pass and some goals in them. Henderson can pick out the odd great pass, but he's not as adept at it as some of the better playmakers out there. What he does bring is energy and the ability to cover the pitch, we could do with someone of genuine class and authority alongside him. I don't really think he's the problem and he's certainly ahead of Can and Wijnaldum in my reckoning. Those two need to improve their contribution and consistency big time.
Like we've said for most of the season, we need a spine. We need another centre back because Matip is injury prone, Lovren is erratic and Klavan is only a shortterm solution who is clearly only an "ok" player. We need a dominant midfielder and we need a keeper and a striker who scores regularly.
Yes, we do all those upgrades.
The one thing which the losses in January have highlighted is just how wet paper weak the midfield us when pressed. Mason looked like Messi for Swansea's winnee. And don't get me started on the Wolves goals. Pretty much each time we turned the ball over, we've conceded.
The one thing which the losses in January have highlighted is just how wet paper weak the midfield us when pressed. Mason looked like Messi for Swansea's winnee. And don't get me started on the Wolves goals. Pretty much each time we turned the ball over, we've conceded.
I see the stats regarding Firmino not having scored in 17 of his starts, but ask yourself, who would you expect to have scored more ( and I mean at least 5 more otherwise you would just be gambling on replacing him )? Sturridge? Origi? Someone else? The form the first two have shown is the reason they are spending time on the bench and getting little game time. It's not like Sturridge has looked hungry when he has got game time is it? He may not have scored the goals in the prime striking position agreed, but at this moment in time, there is no one on the squad to replace him with who will give you more than we are getting.
We're fucked. We've had years of buying plodders just to have depth. Now klopp comes in and only wants to buy players he believes will improve us (debateable), they're surrounded by fucking bilge
The same problems are said every year for a decade.
Need better defenders
Need steel in midfield
Need consistent attackers
Need prolific, non-injury prone striker
None of any of them need to be world class. They just need to be good
The same problems are said every year for a decade.
Need better defenders
Need steel in midfield
Need consistent attackers
Need prolific, non-injury prone striker
None of any of them need to be world class. They just need to be good
We are Liverpool. We need world class.
We don't, not really. We need players who fit the system, aren't injury prone and are consistent and effective in their roles. We need a bit of class yeah, but we need players who don't shirk it when the going gets tough. Players we can rely upon, they only thing that's guaranteed with this lot is that we'll be tearing our hair out at their complete inconsistency and tendency to collapse under the slightest bit of pressure.
A guy on the liverpool reddit page compiled the views of Dortmund's fans take on our current woes:
Although there's not much we don't already know, sometimes an outside view provides some perspective. There's little to argue with much of the views expressed.
[article]
1) The reason Jurgen Klopp doesn't change his tactics is that he wants to play the team into them. He has the ability to tinker, as we saw against Man United and Man City, but won't do it often to ensure the players really get behind the system. Maybe this means our players still haven't adapted to Klopp's playing style completely yet. Credit to /u/Loeffellux for that one.
2) If a player doesn't one hundred percent buy into Klopp's philosophy, he'll get sold. This tells me that despite what we want to think, Daniel Sturridge probably doesn't have much of a future here.
3) I found this one the most interesting: /u/Icantrememberlogins wrote that if a player looks shit, but Klopp believes in them, its worth being patient. He cites Schmelzer, Lewandowski, and Mkhitaryan as examples. This would probably be why he keeps selecting Emre Can, who has been garbage this season, but has looked world class in the Europa League games last season. I'd still play Gini personally, but Can isn't going anywhere, because Klopp sees potential in him. While some of you may scoff at that, keep in mind Mkhitaryan was hot garbage until his last season at Dortmund, and Lewandowski didn't become a regular starter until Lucas Barios left the club.
4) The BVB fans back Klopp to turn it around and get us into the top four. /u/TheTrolledOne thinks that Chelsea have just been too good for anyone this season, and that they'd probably win the Champions League if they were in it. I'd probably have to agree with that sentiment, because keep in mind, their entire starting XI bar Moses and Alonso have won league titles before. Meanwhile, outside of Milner, no one in our squad has lifted one of the major trophies of UCL, Premier League, or FA Cup before. We're going through a major rebuild, and unlike City or United, we haven't had any form of success in a major competition for a long, long time. /u/MrMountainFace says that even though clubs like City and United have top tier managers and have invested in world class players with their money warchests, we've still outperformed them thus far. He says we will stablize in time. Honestly, this really caught my eye, because while City and United have played out of this world at times this season, they're currently in the same boat as us in terms of being in the middle of a rebuild. Their players have struggled for consistency throughout the season as well, which is why players like Kevin De Bruyne and Paul Pogba have been missing for large parts of the season; they're not one hundred percent used to the manager's tactics yet. It could be a reason why our players have dropped off recently as well.
5) They're not a hundred percent sure what to make of our players. /u/Jonhl15 wrote that the absences of Coutinho, Mane, Dejan, and Matip have made us look a lot worse than we actually are. However, /u/Icantrememberlogins says that there are very few players at the current LFC squad that he'd take at BVB, which is a fair assessment imo. As to whether they're good enough to finish top four, /u/MrMountainFace says we'll have to hope tactics work and let things run their course.
6) Finally, /u/Icantrememberlogins mentions that City, United, and Chelsea are all under greater pressure than us to finish in the top four, considering their pedigree and success in recent years. There's a high chance we won't make top four, but that isn't our focus is it? He writes that Klopp will obviously attempt to win every trophy, because that's the type of manager that he is, but right now, he's still working towards getting the right squad and giving key players minutes to ensure their consistency. We don't have all the right pieces, but look at how long it took for Coutinho to become a world class player (and after today's performance, debates over his consistency are going to start again). Origi, Emre, and Karius have had moments, but they're going to need minutes and experience.
Now I want to quickly state this isn't a call to be positive, or a post to call out those who are cynical. We all handle defeats and bad form differently. Some of us are pessimists, and thats fine, while others are overly optimistic, but that's also fine. The point of this post was to get the views from the Borussia Dortmund fans on our situation. The consensus is that our squad isn't that good, and we might not make top four. However, from their experience, we should be prepared for that, as it took them a while to get going under Klopp as well, and they were on the fence over players like Lewandowski and Mkhitaryan initially. We should prepare for some horrible results up ahead, yet, we should also be prepared to celebrate success.
[/article]
Although there's not much we don't already know, sometimes an outside view provides some perspective. There's little to argue with much of the views expressed.
[article]
1) The reason Jurgen Klopp doesn't change his tactics is that he wants to play the team into them. He has the ability to tinker, as we saw against Man United and Man City, but won't do it often to ensure the players really get behind the system. Maybe this means our players still haven't adapted to Klopp's playing style completely yet. Credit to /u/Loeffellux for that one.
2) If a player doesn't one hundred percent buy into Klopp's philosophy, he'll get sold. This tells me that despite what we want to think, Daniel Sturridge probably doesn't have much of a future here.
3) I found this one the most interesting: /u/Icantrememberlogins wrote that if a player looks shit, but Klopp believes in them, its worth being patient. He cites Schmelzer, Lewandowski, and Mkhitaryan as examples. This would probably be why he keeps selecting Emre Can, who has been garbage this season, but has looked world class in the Europa League games last season. I'd still play Gini personally, but Can isn't going anywhere, because Klopp sees potential in him. While some of you may scoff at that, keep in mind Mkhitaryan was hot garbage until his last season at Dortmund, and Lewandowski didn't become a regular starter until Lucas Barios left the club.
4) The BVB fans back Klopp to turn it around and get us into the top four. /u/TheTrolledOne thinks that Chelsea have just been too good for anyone this season, and that they'd probably win the Champions League if they were in it. I'd probably have to agree with that sentiment, because keep in mind, their entire starting XI bar Moses and Alonso have won league titles before. Meanwhile, outside of Milner, no one in our squad has lifted one of the major trophies of UCL, Premier League, or FA Cup before. We're going through a major rebuild, and unlike City or United, we haven't had any form of success in a major competition for a long, long time. /u/MrMountainFace says that even though clubs like City and United have top tier managers and have invested in world class players with their money warchests, we've still outperformed them thus far. He says we will stablize in time. Honestly, this really caught my eye, because while City and United have played out of this world at times this season, they're currently in the same boat as us in terms of being in the middle of a rebuild. Their players have struggled for consistency throughout the season as well, which is why players like Kevin De Bruyne and Paul Pogba have been missing for large parts of the season; they're not one hundred percent used to the manager's tactics yet. It could be a reason why our players have dropped off recently as well.
5) They're not a hundred percent sure what to make of our players. /u/Jonhl15 wrote that the absences of Coutinho, Mane, Dejan, and Matip have made us look a lot worse than we actually are. However, /u/Icantrememberlogins says that there are very few players at the current LFC squad that he'd take at BVB, which is a fair assessment imo. As to whether they're good enough to finish top four, /u/MrMountainFace says we'll have to hope tactics work and let things run their course.
6) Finally, /u/Icantrememberlogins mentions that City, United, and Chelsea are all under greater pressure than us to finish in the top four, considering their pedigree and success in recent years. There's a high chance we won't make top four, but that isn't our focus is it? He writes that Klopp will obviously attempt to win every trophy, because that's the type of manager that he is, but right now, he's still working towards getting the right squad and giving key players minutes to ensure their consistency. We don't have all the right pieces, but look at how long it took for Coutinho to become a world class player (and after today's performance, debates over his consistency are going to start again). Origi, Emre, and Karius have had moments, but they're going to need minutes and experience.
Now I want to quickly state this isn't a call to be positive, or a post to call out those who are cynical. We all handle defeats and bad form differently. Some of us are pessimists, and thats fine, while others are overly optimistic, but that's also fine. The point of this post was to get the views from the Borussia Dortmund fans on our situation. The consensus is that our squad isn't that good, and we might not make top four. However, from their experience, we should be prepared for that, as it took them a while to get going under Klopp as well, and they were on the fence over players like Lewandowski and Mkhitaryan initially. We should prepare for some horrible results up ahead, yet, we should also be prepared to celebrate success.
[/article]
I actually think the midfield is a huge reason why our defence looks so poor.
No matter who we play in defence we see individual errors. A lot of them, all different types, from every player. I think that's partly because we don't play with a typical strong DM, as well as the emphasis we place on playing balls around the defence (which is lessened with a top class dm/cm who drops back & takes the ball from them so is linked in imo).
It's not something easily proven by stats, cos I'm sure the amount of balls our defence deals with is lower than many other clubs as our possession is usually high, but I wonder if the amount of times the defence is left alone to deal with threats (without support from midfield) is higher, cos it certainly seems that way to me.
What world class player worth his salt would come to us?
We're a mid table side relying on previous glory to make us seem appealing
We need players who could become world class, and then hope we reach a level where they'd want to stay with us. We're not buying finished articles.
A midfield of Henderson, Can and Wijnaldum is pretty dire. Can has gone backwards, Henderson improved but will never be World Class and Wijnaldum is average. Plus, between the 3 of them, they offer no protection to the defence. Throw in 2 tragic goalkeepers, no proper left back, and a merry-go-round in the centre of defence and its a miracle we are so high up. Losing Mane's pace for the whole of Jan completely upset our attack and we've still not got it back yet. The last thing we needed was for Sturridge to come back in and be so bad. More than ever, we needed him but he's been awful. Origi going off the boil didn't help either.
We are so bad defensively that the minute the goals have dried up, we've been fucked and its little wonder. Man City have had a similar problem.
Its only Chelsea who have found the perfect balance. That midfield 2 of Matic and Kante sitting in front of the 3 centre backs has been a revelation for them. Compare that to our midfield and no-one has a clue of how we're supposed to be set up.
We are so bad defensively that the minute the goals have dried up, we've been fucked and its little wonder. Man City have had a similar problem.
Its only Chelsea who have found the perfect balance. That midfield 2 of Matic and Kante sitting in front of the 3 centre backs has been a revelation for them. Compare that to our midfield and no-one has a clue of how we're supposed to be set up.
Surprised we run more now than in the beginning of the season – it really looks like the team is static. But maybe that's what Klopp meant when he talked about saving energy by "smart movement." Now we keep having to run back and try to defend the counters after our attackers lose the ball again and again.
Matip is injury prone? His entire injury record since his debut.
[xtable]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td}16/17{/td}
{td}Malleolar injury{/td}
{td}Dec 11, 2016{/td}
{td}Jan 8, 2017{/td}
{td}28 days{/td}
{td}7
{/td}{/tr}
{tr}
{td}16/17{/td}
{td}Malleolar injury{/td}
{td}Nov 26, 2016{/td}
{td}Dec 5, 2016{/td}
{td}9 days{/td}
{td}3
{/td}{/tr}
{tr}
{td}15/16{/td}
{td}Lumbago{/td}
{td}Nov 4, 2015{/td}
{td}Nov 5, 2015{/td}
{td}1 days{/td}
{td}1
{/td}{/tr}
{tr}
{td}14/15{/td}
{td}Muscular problems{/td}
{td}Apr 29, 2015{/td}
{td}May 1, 2015{/td}
{td}2 days{/td}
{td}-{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}14/15{/td}
{td}Thigh muscle rupture{/td}
{td}Feb 23, 2015{/td}
{td}Mar 5, 2015{/td}
{td}10 days{/td}
{td}1
{/td}{/tr}
{tr}
{td}14/15{/td}
{td}Fractured foot{/td}
{td}Nov 26, 2014{/td}
{td}Jan 1, 2015{/td}
{td}36 days{/td}
{td}6
{/td}{/tr}
{tr}
{td}14/15{/td}
{td}Bruised foot{/td}
{td}Oct 20, 2014{/td}
{td}Nov 19, 2014{/td}
{td}30 days{/td}
{td}5
{/td}{/tr}
{tr}
{td}14/15{/td}
{td}Tear in the abductor muscle{/td}
{td}Sep 10, 2014{/td}
{td}Sep 22, 2014{/td}
{td}12 days{/td}
{td}3
{/td}{/tr}
{tr}
{td}12/13{/td}
{td}Flu{/td}
{td}Mar 5, 2013{/td}
{td}Mar 6, 2013{/td}
{td}1 days{/td}
{td}-{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
His comments for the first Hull goal is also interesting. He said that we werent set up correctly at all, which everyone could see btw. So the players havent done what they have been told/instructed to do on defensive set pieces. Why?
Thats just the downside of pressing high with 5 or 6 players isn't it ?
You'll always leave the defence exposed.
So either we need defenders who can survive in those or a change of approach.
The mental fragility of the side has been spoken about by a people a lot more eloquent than me, but stuff like that isn't surprising. It doesn't take a great deal for our heads to drop and enter into a collective malaise. We've got no individuals on the playing side who can drag us out of it. So stuff like this, losing shape, is pretty explainable from that point of view. Form does go at points during the season but when that happens there should be a collective digging in; whereas with us there's a collective dropping of heads and looking to someone else to get us out of the situation.
Without knowing the size of our transfer kitty this would be my approach for the upcoming Season:
Buy very young, potential world class players in the Summer for every position. Except for the goalie one, there we'd need the routine and the calmness of a 30-year-old. He may be expensive but perhaps we can then solve that position for the next 5-6 years.
The thing is, though we can all agree our current squad lack depth and class, we have actually amassed a decent amount of points (especially if you discount 2017 as a whole) and even at one point we was sitting 2nd. With the current crop of players. That's not too bad, and perhaps the inevitable loss of form and lackluster performances we've grown so accustomed too would be different if we had like real, proper talented players to mix it up with along the way.
As has already been said our pulling power when it comes to already proven world class players may have taken a big blow over the past many years, we are not an economical super power and we are simply not coveted or desired enough due to a long run of mediocre results. So let's instead build on what we have and try to add some of the young and talented players still unproven at highest level come Summer. Go all in on building on what we already got instead of once again having to tear it all down. I agree that we won't have any World Class players as of now but we do have at least 11 good to very good ones.
So, if we can spend around £100M come Summer we should be able to get our hands on around five proper starlets like Dolberg, Kessie, Young Kluivert etc. Maybe they won't all make it but can just one or two of them actually realize their early promise and obvious signs of potential we'd all be laughing. And not that doomsday laugh we all know so well, but a proper merry and content laugh.
Buy very young, potential world class players in the Summer for every position. Except for the goalie one, there we'd need the routine and the calmness of a 30-year-old. He may be expensive but perhaps we can then solve that position for the next 5-6 years.
The thing is, though we can all agree our current squad lack depth and class, we have actually amassed a decent amount of points (especially if you discount 2017 as a whole) and even at one point we was sitting 2nd. With the current crop of players. That's not too bad, and perhaps the inevitable loss of form and lackluster performances we've grown so accustomed too would be different if we had like real, proper talented players to mix it up with along the way.
As has already been said our pulling power when it comes to already proven world class players may have taken a big blow over the past many years, we are not an economical super power and we are simply not coveted or desired enough due to a long run of mediocre results. So let's instead build on what we have and try to add some of the young and talented players still unproven at highest level come Summer. Go all in on building on what we already got instead of once again having to tear it all down. I agree that we won't have any World Class players as of now but we do have at least 11 good to very good ones.
So, if we can spend around £100M come Summer we should be able to get our hands on around five proper starlets like Dolberg, Kessie, Young Kluivert etc. Maybe they won't all make it but can just one or two of them actually realize their early promise and obvious signs of potential we'd all be laughing. And not that doomsday laugh we all know so well, but a proper merry and content laugh.
Paredes and Brandt would be top of my transfer wishlist regarding a dm and another winger/forward. Still hope we might lure Kolasinac on a free for the lb role.
As for a central defender, goalkeeper and striker I have no idea. I wanted Sule but he's Bayern bound.
Need someone dominant though.
There were some stories about Handanovic this weekend. I'm not sure how good he is these days but I've wanted us to sign him previously.
Douglas Costa wants out at Bayern this summer but he'll probably go to Chelsea or something.
Would be a fantastic signing mind.
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