Finally someone tells Torres to "man the fuck up"

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35318.msg927714#msg927714 date=1250676330]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35318.msg927712#msg927712 date=1250676213]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35318.msg927708#msg927708 date=1250676120]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35318.msg927707#msg927707 date=1250676065]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35318.msg927704#msg927704 date=1250675836]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35318.msg927693#msg927693 date=1250675231]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35318.msg927692#msg927692 date=1250675153]
This is not a confidence issue, though.

He never has seemed short of that.
[/quote]

when he's 'in the mood' he stays on his feet more and becomes a bully.
[/quote]

I dunno, I think that's when the team's playing well as a whole and he's sniffing chances.

It's his temperament when he's isolated and man-marked that he needs to work upon.
[/quote]

nope, I think it's a confiedence thing. look at the manu away game last season and the manu away game the season before last. in one he was in the mood in the other he was really put of by vidic and rio kicking lumps out of him.
[/quote]Yes. That has NOTHING to do with confidence Neil.
[/quote]

so if it's not confidence what is it?
[/quote]Petulance. He's basically allowing the defenders, situation, team mates etc to excuse himself to be half arsed and moody.
I doubt for one second he thinks 'Vidic and Rio have me here, im not confident'
He's confident as fuck, he's just a bit sulky.
[/quote]

I suppose...
but there are defiantely times when torres seems 'in the mood' and you can tell from the first time he touches the ball.

 

[ibromurph]

Good stuff from the boss.

Can't wait to see Nando's response tonight.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35318.msg927717#msg927717 date=1250676428]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35318.msg927714#msg927714 date=1250676330]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35318.msg927712#msg927712 date=1250676213]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35318.msg927708#msg927708 date=1250676120]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35318.msg927707#msg927707 date=1250676065]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35318.msg927704#msg927704 date=1250675836]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35318.msg927693#msg927693 date=1250675231]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35318.msg927692#msg927692 date=1250675153]
This is not a confidence issue, though.

He never has seemed short of that.
[/quote]

when he's 'in the mood' he stays on his feet more and becomes a bully.
[/quote]

I dunno, I think that's when the team's playing well as a whole and he's sniffing chances.

It's his temperament when he's isolated and man-marked that he needs to work upon.
[/quote]

nope, I think it's a confiedence thing. look at the manu away game last season and the manu away game the season before last. in one he was in the mood in the other he was really put of by vidic and rio kicking lumps out of him.
[/quote]Yes. That has NOTHING to do with confidence Neil.
[/quote]

so if it's not confidence what is it?
[/quote]Petulance. He's basically allowing the defenders, situation, team mates etc to excuse himself to be half arsed and moody.
I doubt for one second he thinks 'Vidic and Rio have me here, im not confident'
He's confident as fuck, he's just a bit sulky.
[/quote]

I suppose...
but there are defiantely times when torres seems 'in the mood' and you can tell from the first time he touches the ball.
[/quote]Yeah but as Squig says its not through lack of confidence. Heskey was a confidence player, he didnt believe in himself half the time, Torres definately believes in himself, he just loses the head when its not all going his way.

 

[TheBunnyman]

For once, I would tend to agree with spidey. I think it is basically a confidence issue. Torres is not really match-sharp; he's frustrated with his own form; and he uses the confrontations with defenders as a way of venting that frustration. If he was super-confident, on top form and scoring goals, this wouldn't be an issue IMO.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=35318.msg927722#msg927722 date=1250676858]
For once, I would tend to agree with spidey. I think it is basically a confidence issue. Torres is not really match-sharp; he's frustrated with his own form; and he uses the confrontations with defenders as a way of venting that frustration. If he was super-confident, on top form and scoring goals, this wouldn't be an issue IMO.

[/quote]

what else don't you agree with me (babel aside as that's a gimme) I'm curious.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35318.msg927725#msg927725 date=1250677044]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=35318.msg927722#msg927722 date=1250676858]
For once, I would tend to agree with spidey. I think it is basically a confidence issue. Torres is not really match-sharp; he's frustrated with his own form; and he uses the confrontations with defenders as a way of venting that frustration. If he was super-confident, on top form and scoring goals, this wouldn't be an issue IMO.

[/quote]

what else don't you agree with me (babel aside as that's a gimme) I'm curious.
[/quote]I think you get a bit hard done by when it comes to the what you know stakes Spiderman.
you're a victim of having strong opinions about everything, so people notice them a lot and you get pulled up on the ones people disagree with. Im sure there are many many times you post sage like stuff that goes unnoticed by most, but they remember the Babel, Wingbacks, Hamman stuff and automatically think you chat shit.

That and the fact you chat shit a lot.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35318.msg927729#msg927729 date=1250677202]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35318.msg927725#msg927725 date=1250677044]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=35318.msg927722#msg927722 date=1250676858]
For once, I would tend to agree with spidey. I think it is basically a confidence issue. Torres is not really match-sharp; he's frustrated with his own form; and he uses the confrontations with defenders as a way of venting that frustration. If he was super-confident, on top form and scoring goals, this wouldn't be an issue IMO.

[/quote]

what else don't you agree with me (babel aside as that's a gimme) I'm curious.
[/quote]I think you get a bit hard done by when it comes to the what you know stakes Spiderman.
you're a victim of having strong opinions about everything, so people notice them a lot and you get pulled up on the ones people disagree with. Im sure there are many many times you post sage like stuff that goes unnoticed by most, but they remember the Babel, Wingbacks, Hamman stuff and automatically think you chat shit.

That and the fact you chat shit a lot.
[/quote]

To be fair I've never claimed to be knowledgeable about football, I just make obversations which (which by and large get bourne out)
off at a tangent I hope people can see the difference with my defending babel to 'seemingly' knocking hamman, I have different criteria for judging different people. I obviously can't critique gerrard at the same level I critique lucas (for example).
lastly whenever I make judgement I always 'try' to look at the big picture. for instance when I was one of the last defenders of rafa in the awful run of last season, you can't look at a run and then make a judgement you look at the big picture. when liverpool win they are suddenly the best team in the world and when the lose they aren't suddnly the worst.

 

[Squiggles]

I just find if difficult to believe that anyone who's as consistently brilliant as Torres can possibly be low on confidence.

The Torres attitude issue, IMO, is not much different from Rooney getting aggressive when things don't go his way, although he acts a much bigger cunt, obv.

Anyway, it's a bit of a non-debate.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35318.msg927733#msg927733 date=1250677839]
I just find if difficult to believe that anyone who's consistently brilliant as Torres can be low on confidence.

The Torres attitude issue, IMO, is not much different from Rooney getting aggressive when things don't go his way, although he acts a much bigger cunt, obv.

Anyway, it's a bit of a none debate.
[/quote]

everyone can suffer from a lack of confidence, some people just have more self belief in themselves then offers. I not an owen fan but there is no way you can claim owen lacks self belief, when people write him off after a poor spell he always bounces back and always puts himself in a position to miss knowing that sooner rather than later those chances will start to go in.

 

[Squiggles]

I KNOW

I JUST DON'T THINK TORRES SUFFERS FROM LACK OF SELF-BELIEF!

-runs out of thread-

 

[rage]

torres suffers from a lack of midfield but hey lets tell torres to man the fuck up. at least he has it in him instead of them gimps in waiting like lucas, babel and voronin.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=rage link=topic=35318.msg927743#msg927743 date=1250678962]
torres suffers from a lack of midfield but hey lets tell torres to man the fuck up. at least he has it in him instead of them gimps in waiting like lucas, babel and voronin.
[/quote]

the midfield or his supporting strikers have nothing to do with him going down like a sack of spuds, choosing the wrong option, moaning at the ref (for EVERYTHING) and generally not holding up the ball.
you don't absolve people because other people are poor, if people are effected by poor performances from their team mates explain riena's stella peformance in goal.

 

[Le Chacal]

I quite agree with Rafa on this subject, Torres must stay more focus on his match even when frustrated with lack of service. Great strikers often dont touch a ball for 90 minutes and then score on their 1st chance in injury time.
Rage is quite right though, its because he's completely alone up front. With Lucas in the middle, Gerrard has to come back deeper on the ground and that lets a big gap between him and Torres. Their famous link-up is broken as is the team's balance. It was obvious on sunday.
Have we got the right players to play that 4-2-3-1?
I never liked that formation, I hated it on sunday.

 

[TheBunnyman]

Squiggles: there is a difference between self-belief and confidence. The first is a fundamental character trait; the second is an emotional state, which comes and goes. Torres has huge self-belief, but at the moment (imo) is a bit low on confidence. He needs to rip holes in Stoke's defence and slide the ball past their keeper. If that happens, I think you'd instantly see less of the irritability and histrionics.

Spidey, just take the compliment. I don't necessarily think you're wrong more often than other people - you're just more boring and repetitious than other people. You also have a tendency to spend ten lines stating the bleeding obvious. But anyway, you were right this time, so enjoy it.

 

[doctor_mac]

The Bunny giveth with one hand, and bitch-slappeth with his other. So saith the LORD.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=35318.msg927750#msg927750 date=1250680198]
I quite agree with Rafa on this subject, Torres must stay more focus on his match even when frustrated with lack of service. Great strikers often dont touch a ball for 90 minutes and then score on their 1st chance in injury time.
Rage is quite right though, its because he's completely alone up front. With Lucas in the middle, Gerrard has to come back deeper on the ground and that lets a big gap between him and Torres. Their famous link-up is broken as is the team's balance. It was obvious on sunday.
Have we got the right players to play that 4-2-3-1?
I never liked that formation, I hated it on sunday.


[/quote]

torres only has himself to blame for being isolated, he was given the ball plenty of times and was unable to hold it up, had he done so more of the midfield would have joined him in attack.

 

[zlatan18]

This is just stupid!
obviously torres is going to get pissed off because the service is not there! our midfield is much weaker atm.

 

[Stulikesdrums]

I disagree with you zlatan18.
It has been creeping into his game more and more.
I remember noticing it at Everton away last season, before he got the two goals he was giving out to the ref and the linesman. Getting aggressive with them almost.

Rafa is right, he is a marked man, he needs to rise above it and just do the business.

 

[Spionkop69]

I'm getting worried about this " the midfield is much weaker" argument that is being bandied around at the moment. We lost one (albeit good player) and the whole midfield is now being vilified as not good enough?

I'm sure there were many occasions where we played without Alonso and won with the same players filling in as we had now. Or was I just imagining it?

*goes to check the results without Alonso*

 

[madmax]

[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=35318.msg927816#msg927816 date=1250685305]
I'm getting worried about this " the midfield is much weaker" argument that is being bandied around at the moment. We lost one (albeit good player) and the whole midfield is now being vilified as not good enough?

I'm sure there were many occasions where we played without Alonso and won with the same players filling in as we had now. Or was I just imagining it?

*goes to check the results without Alonso*
[/quote]

It's that world class depth that made it a great midfield.

We will still give a proper roasting to some of the good teams, but the question is if we will find the consistency...

 

[peekay]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35318.msg927729#msg927729 date=1250677202]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35318.msg927725#msg927725 date=1250677044]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=35318.msg927722#msg927722 date=1250676858]
For once, I would tend to agree with spidey. I think it is basically a confidence issue. Torres is not really match-sharp; he's frustrated with his own form; and he uses the confrontations with defenders as a way of venting that frustration. If he was super-confident, on top form and scoring goals, this wouldn't be an issue IMO.

[/quote]

what else don't you agree with me (babel aside as that's a gimme) I'm curious.
[/quote]I think you get a bit hard done by when it comes to the what you know stakes Spiderman.
you're a victim of having strong opinions about everything, so people notice them a lot and you get pulled up on the ones people disagree with. Im sure there are many many times you post sage like stuff that goes unnoticed by most, but they remember the Babel, Wingbacks, Hamman stuff and automatically think you chat shit.

That and the fact you chat shit a lot.
[/quote]
🙂
I disagree with Spidey a lot but I think he has been getting some unfair criticism over the past few months. But it is great to see posters who react to the criticisms in a positive way.

Regarding Torres issue, I hope the kid watches the video of the Reading game in the Carling Cup. IMO that was the game when I became 100% sure that he is going to be a star in the EPL. He was kicked to bits but he stood up and delivered.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=peekay link=topic=35318.msg927842#msg927842 date=1250687897]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35318.msg927729#msg927729 date=1250677202]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35318.msg927725#msg927725 date=1250677044]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=35318.msg927722#msg927722 date=1250676858]
For once, I would tend to agree with spidey. I think it is basically a confidence issue. Torres is not really match-sharp; he's frustrated with his own form; and he uses the confrontations with defenders as a way of venting that frustration. If he was super-confident, on top form and scoring goals, this wouldn't be an issue IMO.

[/quote]

what else don't you agree with me (babel aside as that's a gimme) I'm curious.
[/quote]I think you get a bit hard done by when it comes to the what you know stakes Spiderman.
you're a victim of having strong opinions about everything, so people notice them a lot and you get pulled up on the ones people disagree with. Im sure there are many many times you post sage like stuff that goes unnoticed by most, but they remember the Babel, Wingbacks, Hamman stuff and automatically think you chat shit.

That and the fact you chat shit a lot.
[/quote]
🙂
I disagree with Spidey a lot but I think he has been getting some unfair criticism over the past few months. But it is great to see posters who react to the criticisms in a positive way.

Regarding Torres issue, I hope the kid watches the video of the Reading game in the Carling Cup. IMO that was the game when I became 100% sure that he is going to be a star in the EPL. He was kicked to bits but he stood up and delivered.
[/quote]

only bren could get under my skin and he's gone ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ;D

 

[LadyRed]

I think the truth is somewhere between what Oncy and Spidey are saying, his lack of match fitness/form/opportunities etc leads him to lack confidence and therefore become petulant and rather than focus his energies on the game he just acts a bitch instead, like he did on Sunday.

Unfortunately, unless we start to get a hold of the game in midfield, Torres will be left isolated and we'll see more of the moany Torres.

 

[zlatan18]

[quote author=Stu link=topic=35318.msg927814#msg927814 date=1250685106]
I disagree with you zlatan18.
It has been creeping into his game more and more.
I remember noticing it at Everton away last season, before he got the two goals he was giving out to the ref and the linesman. Getting aggressive with them almost.

Rafa is right, he is a marked man, he needs to rise above it and just do the business.
[/quote]

thats fair enough but im pretty sure that if you kept getting kicked by defenders because you are too good for them, im pretty sure you would be pretty pissed and add on top of that he got no service at the weekend against spurs and there is the reason!