Credit to Rodgers

[Rosco]

I'm an avid hater of the line of thinking that good results can only mean the manager is getting things right (hello Avram Grant!), and bad results mean the manager is bad.

You need to separate process and results. Managers should be judged on process, because it's what they have full influence over.

The reality is it is whether a game is own or not is mostly about the players. Referees decide more games than managers too.

If you're willing to say that Rodgers' process is the possession football - then it's questionable that it has been positive for us. We aren't conceding any less, and we've only scored two goals this season that are a direct result of the approach. We're giving up almost as many shots as we're taking, and most of our chances come outside the box (where 1 in 18 shots result in a goal)

I think we're better this because we have more good players (and we've had an easy start to the season). And he deserves some credit for the squad improvements.

 

[Ryan]

"Rodgers' process is the possession football"

What does that mean?

 

[Frogfish]

If you're willing to say that Rodgers' process is the possession football - then it's questionable that it has been positive for us. We aren't conceding any less, and we've only scored two goals this season that are a direct result of the approach. We're giving up almost as many shots as we're taking, and most of our chances come outside the box (where 1 in 18 shots result in a goal)

The proof is what I see with my own two eyes, good football and undeniable progress. Stats ? Well you know what you can do with them since so often they do not tell the whole story.

 

[localny]

Andrew Beasley ‏@BassTunedToRed58m
#LFC have now won the league game immediately after a league defeat for 9th time in a row. Rodgers full LFC record in such games is W9 D2 L0

This is a stat that gives me faith

 

[Ceefax the Cat]

I thinks since jan-may it was 30/51 and from aug-now it's been 23/33 so in total we have 53 points from 84 this year.

Together with the style and elan of many of these performance I'm fairly happy.

I have been concerned with Rodgers' attempt to shoehorn all of his signings into a formation unsuited to the team and was happy at today's change thinking he had relented. However it seems injuries to Toure and Sakho may have forced this change to a better formation and I hope he doesn't switch to 3-4-2-1 when they are fit again.

 

[Red Mullet]

I'm an avid hater of the line of thinking that good results can only mean the manager is getting things right (hello Avram Grant!), and bad results mean the manager is bad.

You need to separate process and results. Managers should be judged on process, because it's what they have full influence over.

The reality is it is whether a game is own or not is mostly about the players. Referees decide more games than managers too.

If you're willing to say that Rodgers' process is the possession football - then it's questionable that it has been positive for us. We aren't conceding any less, and we've only scored two goals this season that are a direct result of the approach. We're giving up almost as many shots as we're taking, and most of our chances come outside the box (where 1 in 18 shots result in a goal)

I think we're better this because we have more good players (and we've had an easy start to the season). And he deserves some credit for the squad improvements.

Your conclusion of separating process and results is wrong, it's too simplistic. Process is there to drive results, poor process = poor results (always), good process = a higher probability of good results. We've had good results, therefore the process ie the player selection, the training/coaching, the man management of players and staff, the tactics (next game, in game and long term) is good thanks to the manager.

Next: a game's fate is decided by the players but quite simply select the wrong players and you'll inevitably lose the game. Select the right players, in the right positions, train/coach them in the correct tactics allowing them room for creativity and you'll increase your probability of winning the game. Guess who has most influence on that - the manager. Agreed - referees can also affect the outcome.

The Suarez ban, the injury to Coutinho and Johnson, Gerrard's age and position change resulted in a formation change, which then change Rodgers process of possession football. He adapted is process based on events like all good managers do rather than doggedly sticking to his initial thoughts. The team, and he, has had good results it should be commended on the process change.

 

[RedZeppelin III]

I still think his transfers are 50/50 but I'm confident we're on the right track as long as FSG back him financially.

This is my biggest frustration and niggle at the moment. I firmly believe we could be ahead in the building process if we'd got more for the money we spent . Allen, borini , aspas , alberto , illori are offering fuck all right now (yes i know aspas is injured but he's bang average when fit ) . The hope for some (alberto and illori) obviously is that they might in future but even then when will that be and how likely is it to even happen ? .
Even Mingolet and Sakho , were those crucial positions that needed so much money to be spent on last window ? Again time will tell .

My hope though is that it all comes together in a window or two , we've been building a squad but will now look for top quality . That's what rodgers has been implying recently . He's now looking for players to effectively go straight into the starting lineup so let's see if he's able to find and attract that quality of player .

 

[Hansern]

Ross is just trying to be a troll.
Every man and his dog can see that we've improved massively under Rodgers.

Just look at the point average that I posted a while back. The easy start is also a shite argument. You have to win every game and we've played some difficult games already.
In fact its an improvement in itself that we now beat the teams we are expected to.

 

[Spionkop69]

Of course I did and it's a great feat, but you can't just disregard the Southampton game.
Like I said, I don't know why you're making a big deal out of it?
I bet you if anyone else pointed that out you wouldn't be having this discussion.

I think you're being a pedant and I'm not Modoist. Not anymore ;-)

 

[Frogfish]

This is my biggest frustration and niggle at the moment. I firmly believe we could be ahead in the building process if we'd got more for the money we spent . Allen, borini , aspas , alberto , illori are offering fuck all right now (yes i know aspas is injured but he's bang average when fit ) . The hope for some (alberto and illori) obviously is that they might in future but even then when will that be and how likely is it to even happen ? .
Even Mingolet and Sakho , were those crucial positions that needed so much money to be spent on last window ? Again time will tell .

My hope though is that it all comes together in a window or two , we've been building a squad but will now look for top quality . That's what rodgers has been implying recently . He's now looking for players to effectively go straight into the starting lineup so let's see if he's able to find and attract that quality of player .

I don't we could, or should, just concentrate on the here and now, we have to continue to build (and buy) for the future and in that respect Borini, Aspas (to a degree, he really didn't cost us much), Alberto, Illori and the money we're spending recruiting for the youth/reserves could at worst net us a profit but at best save us a fortune in future transfer seasons (as well as helping to attract great future players with great potential).

Mingolet and Sakho were solid buys. I'd deffo go Ming over Reina now, not only for his shot-stopping but because IMHO Pepe had, not surprisingly given the past few seasons, lost his drive. Sakho I'm delighted with.

We were 'unlucky' not to get that Myk fella - if we had can you imagine what this team could be doing right now ? It would probably have been Arsenal chasing us. The way Rodgers is talking I hope January will see a player of similar ilk come in and slot into that missing puzzle space.

 

[Spionkop69]

We were 'unlucky' not to get that Myk fella - if we had can you imagine what this team could be doing right now ? It would probably have been Arsenal chasing us. The way Rodgers is talking I hope January will see a player of similar ilk come in and slot into that missing puzzle space.

Now you see, I just don't see it that way. If this myk player had come, we'd have have had more competition for creativity of which we have plenty.

The issue is the strength of our midfield and it's ability to dig in and show steel and protect our back four. Myk wouldn't add to that. A Mascherano type player would.

 

[Frogfish]

Now you see, I just don't see it that way. If this myk player had come, we'd have have had more competition for creativity of which we have plenty.

The issue is the strength of our midfield and it's ability to dig in and show steel and protect our back four. Myk wouldn't add to that. A Mascherano type player would.

I first and foremost feel we do need a player like Myk... someone who can control the MF and with Countinho, Suarez and Sturridge up front that would be an awesome front five (inc Gerrard). That solid player you are talking about is currently Lucas, and whilst we can do better I don't see that as a priority. It can wait until next Summer because IMO Lucas, a Myk..like player and Gerrard would be winning most MF battles.

 

[Fox]

Credit to him for not being stubborn. He changed the formation after it stopped working for us.

Good manager.

 

[gkmacca]

There are still things to work on. Even yesterday, for example, we kept passing back to Mignolet and left him having to boot the ball away with attackers running at him - I'm mystified as to why we keep doing that. And while we kept the ball really well yesterday we haven't against teams that have pressed us more assiduously. We need a really powerful performance against the bluenoses now, but it's obvious that we have made progress.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

One thing I like about him is he's willing to learn from mistakes (bar the midfield issue!).

* wants to keep Skrtel assigned to the bench. Plays him because of injury, Skittles plays great - keeps him in the starting 11 despite return of vice captain.
* his two biggest purchases last year struggled - loans one out, and isn't willing to just shove him in to prove his purchase (Allen and Borini).
* wants to play both his players as strikers - works well for a few games at 3-5-2, collapses against Arsenal and goes to 4-4-2

There are other examples, but I think this shows a young manager - who despite his hunger and desire to prove himself - is willing to take a step back and admit his original take may be wrong. I like that.

 

[SummerOnions]

You can see in the way we play against lower teams that our game plan has improved. We don't fuck about on the ball as much, we knock it about quickly which creates a lot more chances

 

[Rosco]

"Rodgers' process is the possession football"

What does that mean?

It means I was drunk and sitting down having a shite when I was typing this.

 

[FoxForceFive]

I'm still hungover. The second day.

Getting old is shit.

 

[Rosco]

Your conclusion of separating process and results is wrong, it's too simplistic. Process is there to drive results, poor process = poor results (always), good process = a higher probability of good results. We've had good results, therefore the process ie the player selection, the training/coaching, the man management of players and staff, the tactics (next game, in game and long term) is good thanks to the manager.

Next: a game's fate is decided by the players but quite simply select the wrong players and you'll inevitably lose the game. Select the right players, in the right positions, train/coach them in the correct tactics allowing them room for creativity and you'll increase your probability of winning the game. Guess who has most influence on that - the manager. Agreed - referees can also affect the outcome.

The Suarez ban, the injury to Coutinho and Johnson, Gerrard's age and position change resulted in a formation change, which then change Rodgers process of possession football. He adapted is process based on events like all good managers do rather than doggedly sticking to his initial thoughts. The team, and he, has had good results it should be commended on the process change.

I agree the process affects the probability of winning a game.

But poor process does not always = poor results. And good results don't necessarily mean the manager is doing the right things , a lot of other factors play a part. We've all seen games where we felt the manager got it horrendously wrong and we got a bad referreeing decision that gifted us the game, and vice versa. Teams have purple patches, easy parts of the season. To ignore that and ascribe everything that happens to the manager is ridiculous.

Poor results are more a function of a shit squad, likewise good results are the the function of a good squad.


If poor process always resulted in a poor result we never would have won the Champions League in 2005. Avram Grant would not have come closer to winning a CL at Chelsea than Jose Mourinho. etc. etc

 

[Rosco]

Ross is just trying to be a troll.
Every man and his dog can see that we've improved massively under Rodgers.

Just look at the point average that I posted a while back. The easy start is also a shite argument. You have to win every game and we've played some difficult games already.
In fact its an improvement in itself that we now beat the teams we are expected to.

Why don't you stick to posting useless twitter updates and not try to ruin every fucking thread.

If we had a poor start and we had gone through a tough run of fixtures you'd be rightly pointing that out as a big factor albeit not for the right reason.

 

[mark1975]

Way to miss the point.

Way to troll just for the sake of it. Southampton are playing well, regardless of them being called Southampton. Just like we dropped points at Newcastle and everyone said "uh oh", and then they went on to beat Chelsea and Newcastle.

Think a bit eh.

 

[Mystic]

Why don't you stick to posting useless twitter updates and not try to ruin every fucking thread.

If we had a poor start and we had gone through a tough run of fixtures you'd be rightly pointing that out as a big factor albeit not for the right reason.

But we didn't though, did we?

 

[mark1975]

I agree the process affects the probability of winning a game.

But poor process does not always = poor results. And good results don't necessarily mean the manager is doing the right things , a lot of other factors play a part. We've all seen games where we felt the manager got it horrendously wrong and we got a bad referreeing decision that gifted us the game, and vice versa. Teams have purple patches, easy parts of the season. To ignore that and ascribe everything that happens to the manager is ridiculous.

Poor results are more a function of a shit squad, likewise good results are the the function of a good squad.


If poor process always resulted in a poor result we never would have won the Champions League in 2005. Avram Grant would not have come closer to winning a CL at Chelsea than Jose Mourinho. etc. etc

It's a bit flawed Ross. Grant came in and did a great interim job and should technically have got given the role permanently, if it wasn't for the fact that his face didn't fit and he wasn't fashionable enough, he was hardly a flash in the pan.

I know your main point is that the better the squad, the better the chance of winning, which more or less outweighs the input of the manager, we've seen plenty of underachieving top teams suffer because the influence of a manager has gone stagnant.

In Rodgers case, I think one of your recent points was that Sturridge and Suarez are carrying us. He bought Sturridge! He added him and Coutinho in January and our results went on the up, we've continued that again this season without hitting the heights consistently yet, so surely that's progress on the strength of the manager and (some of) his purchases. And we didn't have a shit start, so what ifs are pointless. We've dropped points against Southampton and Arsenal while beating United, we've got results against everyone else. If we carry on in that vein and reverse a few big game defeats then we'll be well on our way. On the strength of the team and the staff.

 

[mark1975]

So what are we surmising if we follow the typical logic. That Rodgers is getting the rub of the green? What's our record in 2013 again? Oh. Some rub of the green that, to get away with it for nearly a year.

 

[Woland]

A 50/50 hit ratio in the transfer window would be fucking amazing. Rafa bought some of the best players ever at the club, but he went through zillions getting there. The thing he did well was fuck them off immediately if they didn't fit and it Rodgers can do the same with the crap he's bought, admit they were mistakes and move on, then he'll have been as successful in the market as anyone we've had in the last twenty years. Sturridge, Coutinho and Toure were absolute steals, Sahko looks worth the money and we'll probably get half decent fees for the rest of the crap that won't get a game.

But anyways Rodgers does deserve a lot of credit for this run. The system is his, it fucked up in the first half of last season as players struggled to figure out what they were meant to do but he stuck with it. He brought in a few players that have improved us... His net spend is pretty low... what more can you say than any progress made is down to him? It is. That's obvious.

 

[Rosco]

It's a bit flawed Ross. Grant came in and did a great interim job and should technically have got given the role permanently, if it wasn't for the fact that his face didn't fit and he wasn't fashionable enough, he was hardly a flash in the pan.

I know your main point is that the better the squad, the better the chance of winning, which more or less outweighs the input of the manager, we've seen plenty of underachieving top teams suffer because the influence of a manager has gone stagnant.

In Rodgers case, I think one of your recent points was that Sturridge and Suarez are carrying us. He bought Sturridge! He added him and Coutinho in January and our results went on the up, we've continued that again this season without hitting the heights consistently yet, so surely that's progress on the strength of the manager and (some of) his purchases. And we didn't have a shit start, so what ifs are pointless. We've dropped points against Southampton and Arsenal while beating United, we've got results against everyone else. If we carry on in that vein and reverse a few big game defeats then we'll be well on our way. On the strength of the team and the staff.

Leave transfers aside for now - which are the reason for the majority of the improvement IMO. (And as I mentioned in my first post, Rodgers gets some credit there)

Look at the tactics, team selections, in game decisions - all the small stuff - that's process in my mind. (And it's virtually impossible to determine what exactly a managers process is without him laying it all out for you before a match. )

The big thing that most people don't seem to want to allow for is the fact that luck plays a large part in results. Intuitively we know this is true, but when it comes to following the team we don't seem to allow for it.

The problem is that maths geeks worked out that in a 20 game sample skill and luck are equally responsible for the results. Twenty games! Skill = players and manager skill combined.

We've played 11 league games - are you confident it's all skill /more skill than luck ?

I'm not convinced yet.

I prefer this years squad to last years. I know that. I don't have any major complaints about Rodgers - apart from those fucking teeth.

But when you look at one of underlying stats that is correlated with league position - total shots ratio, after ten games we were giving up almost as many shots as we were taking - significantly worse than last year.

So when I look at that I wonder whether we're an exception to the correlation (man United were last year) or whether it's an indicator that our luck might run out.

I'm never too optimistic!

 

[mark1975]

But when you look at one of underlying stats that is correlated with league position - total shots ratio, after ten games we were giving up almost as many shots as we were taking - significantly worse than last year.

Surely the other way of looking at this is that we create ALOT. There's other things that come into play there too, when you're coasting in a game players can get too elaborate or complacent.

Look at Andy Cole when he was at United, he banged them in for years but was one of the worst for taking too many touches and fluffing too many shots.

I know it might occasionally cost us, but I'd rather this than the way we played under previous managers where we'd struggle to scratch the surface, particularly against the minnows at home. Now we're opening teams up left right and centre. People used to talk about Rafa's tactical brilliance and the same posters have shown their concerns about whether Rodgers is made for the Champions League. He's kept it simple, took us back to the basics and has different variation in the side, something other managers staggeringly failed to achieve in longer tenures. We look like a good side, domestically at least. There's still a long way to go, I appreciate that, but now is the perfect time to capitalise on the instability of other sides.

 

[mark1975]

I do get your point though, that much of a managers success is down to who he buys, I think that's as (if not more) significant than what tactics he uses. Tactics will only get you so far with what you've got, you need to be shrewd enough to add the players that will give you consistency and to take your tactical ideas as far as they will go.

 

[Hansern]

Why don't you stick to posting useless twitter updates and not try to ruin every fucking thread.

If we had a poor start and we had gone through a tough run of fixtures you'd be rightly pointing that out as a big factor albeit not for the right reason.

You're just lovely arent you?

 

[mark1975]

Of course I did and it's a great feat, but you can't just disregard the Southampton game.
Like I said, I don't know why you're making a big deal out of it?
I bet you if anyone else pointed that out you wouldn't be having this discussion.

I think the point is you're always first to come up with a smart ass comment.

If you backed it up with an actual explanation, instead of a one word/one liner just to be pedantic, people wouldn't jump on your case. Either you're really really fucking thick Modo, or you know what you're doing, given you do it regularly and get shit for similar posts. Surely it doesn't go over your head why people label you a troll at times.

And Leo, leave it out mate, it's not worth goading him for.