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Can England win the World Cup?

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[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35711.msg940203#msg940203 date=1252424678]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=35711.msg940195#msg940195 date=1252423813]
World Cups aren't as much fun these days. There always used to be at least one country whose players didn't even seem to know all of the rules. That was great.
[/quote]Hands up if youre thinking about that Zaire'an who ran out the wall and punted the ball away as soon as the whistle went?
[/quote]

Ha! Yes, I loved that guy!
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35711.msg940211#msg940211 date=1252425434]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35711.msg940209#msg940209 date=1252425200]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35711.msg940204#msg940204 date=1252424752]
*puts hand up*

the best part was the look of astonishment on his face when he gets booked
[/quote] Cannigia getting sawed in two by the 'eager' cameroonians,[/quote]

possibly my favorite ever world cup moment ;D
[/quote]

One of my favourite ever World Cup games overall. I was chuffed to monkeys when the Argies got beat.
 
england

rooney - one of the best forwards in the world
gerrard - one of the best forwards in the world
a cole - one of the (if not THE) best left backs in the world
g johnson - one of the best right backs in the world
lampard - one of the best central midfielders in the world (c'mon he is)
rio - one of the best center backs in the world
terry - one of the best center backs in the world

england's problem isn't personnel, it's application and desire.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=35711.msg940307#msg940307 date=1252437273]
Centre Back.
[/quote]

cheers 🙂
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35711.msg939948#msg939948 date=1252398069]
England have a great chance of winning the World Cup.

Look at the the squad - they have the best defence in the world. Cole and Johnson are the best fullbacks in world football at the moment, Terry and Ferdinand are miles better than anything Argentina and Brazil can put on the field.

Then you have the midfield containing two of the best attacking midfielders in the world in Gerrard and Lampard. Supplemented by one of the most underrated holding midfielders in the game in Gareth Barry. Alongside them you have a selection of great wingers - SWP, Ashley Young, Beckham.

Up front you currently have a partnership of Donkey and Shrek which seems to bring the best out of Rooney. You also have the luxury of calling on Crouch (whose scoring record in internationals is exceptional), Defoe who is in red hot form, and also the fall back option of one of the best English strikers ever in Michael Owen.

Frankly if England don't win it, Capello should be sacked.

Look at last weeks Argentina v. Brazil game. Would you be worried about a Brazil side when their best midfielder is Gilberto Silva ? Would you be worried about trying to score against an Argentine defence containing Heinze ?
[/quote]


Ross is that you?!?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35711.msg940293#msg940293 date=1252436747]
england

rooney - one of the best forwards in the world
gerrard - one of the best forwards in the world
a cole - one of the (if not THE) best left backs in the world
g johnson - one of the best right backs in the world
lampard - one of the best central midfielders in the world (c'mon he is)
rio - one of the best center backs in the world
terry - one of the best center backs in the world

england's problem isn't personnel, it's application and desire.
[/quote]

Problem is still the fact that Lampard isn't a central midfielder he is an attacking midfielder exactly like Gerrard. The same issue will happen in a game they are chasing or where they NEED to score. with Gerrard and Lampard on the same pitch you have two players who instinctively occupy the same space leaving either one non effectual or both and half their capabilities. The solution has not been found imo, binning Gerrard out left isn't it.
 
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=35711.msg940339#msg940339 date=1252439192]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35711.msg940293#msg940293 date=1252436747]
england

rooney - one of the best forwards in the world
gerrard - one of the best forwards in the world
a cole - one of the (if not THE) best left backs in the world
g johnson - one of the best right backs in the world
lampard - one of the best central midfielders in the world (c'mon he is)
rio - one of the best center backs in the world
terry - one of the best center backs in the world

england's problem isn't personnel, it's application and desire.
[/quote]

Problem is still the fact that Lampard isn't a central midfielder he is an attacking midfielder exactly like Gerrard. The same issue will happen in a game they are chasing or where they NEED to score. with Gerrard and Lampard on the same pitch you have two players who instinctively occupy the same space leaving either one non effectual or both and half their capabilities. The solution has not been found imo, binning Gerrard out left isn't it.
[/quote]

if rooney were an out and out striker gerrard could play the position he does for liverpool.
 
That was exactly what I was going to add on, but you'd still get Lampard and Gerrard trying occupy the same space. But you'd be able to put in Ashley Young and Lennon/Walcott which imo would be a positive.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35711.msg940293#msg940293 date=1252436747]
england

rooney - one of the best forwards in the world
gerrard - one of the best forwards in the world
a cole - one of the (if not THE) best left backs in the world
g johnson - one of the best right backs in the world
lampard - one of the best central midfielders in the world (c'mon he is)
rio - one of the best center backs in the world
terry - one of the best center backs in the world

england's problem isn't personnel, it's application and desire.
[/quote]

No, the problem is they all turn into gay girls when they put 'da free liuns on da chess'

Strange but true.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35711.msg940081#msg940081 date=1252410644]
Semi's of Euro 96 too.

It's not great but it's something.
[/quote]

I've said this before, I'll say it again.

Euro 96 was a shit tournament packed full of shit teams.

It's only the English in some depserate attempt at creating something out of nothing that think it was anything remotely memorable.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35711.msg940402#msg940402 date=1252448904]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35711.msg940081#msg940081 date=1252410644]
Semi's of Euro 96 too.

It's not great but it's something.
[/quote]

I've said this before, I'll say it again.

Euro 96 was a shit tournament packed full of shit teams.

It's only the English in some depserate attempt at creating something out of nothing that think it was anything remotely memorable.
[/quote]

Its been overhyped for sure, and for supposedly one of the leading teams in Europe not getting to the final when you are hosting the tournament is certainly not great, but not sure that the teams who were there were any worse than any other European Championships. I can't recall many of the best teams being missing
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=35711.msg940410#msg940410 date=1252450278]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35711.msg940402#msg940402 date=1252448904]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35711.msg940081#msg940081 date=1252410644]
Semi's of Euro 96 too.

It's not great but it's something.
[/quote]

I've said this before, I'll say it again.

Euro 96 was a shit tournament packed full of shit teams.

It's only the English in some depserate attempt at creating something out of nothing that think it was anything remotely memorable.
[/quote]

Its been overhyped for sure, and for supposedly one of the leading teams in Europe not getting to the final when you are hosting the tournament is certainly not great, but not sure that the teams who were there were any worse than any other European Championships. I can't recall many of the best teams being missing
[/quote]

I don't think Ireland were there, were they?
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35711.msg940402#msg940402 date=1252448904]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35711.msg940081#msg940081 date=1252410644]
Semi's of Euro 96 too.

It's not great but it's something.
[/quote]

I've said this before, I'll say it again.

Euro 96 was a shit tournament packed full of shit teams.

It's only the English in some depserate attempt at creating something out of nothing that think it was anything remotely memorable.
[/quote]

Gazza's moment against Scotland and the game against Holland were excellent though.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35711.msg940402#msg940402 date=1252448904]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35711.msg940081#msg940081 date=1252410644]
Semi's of Euro 96 too.

It's not great but it's something.
[/quote]

I've said this before, I'll say it again.

Euro 96 was a shit tournament packed full of shit teams.

It's only the English in some depserate attempt at creating something out of nothing that think it was anything remotely memorable.
[/quote]

Did England sleep with your wife once?
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=35711.msg940215#msg940215 date=1252427191]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=35711.msg940213#msg940213 date=1252426518]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=35711.msg940151#msg940151 date=1252417887]
You dont win the WC without a very good goalkeeper.
England dont have a good a goalkeeper.
Brazil or Argentina if they qualify
[/quote]

Hahaha! England don't have a top class keeper but neither do either of the teams you've mentioned. Nice contradiction.

Oh and Taferel was mentioned by someone else.


[/quote]
Julio Cesar is quite good. Taffarel was very good in that World Cup.
England could have won the WC in '90 and 2002 with a good keeper. I think it could be the same this year.
[/quote]

Cos that Shilton bloke was rubbish in 1990, apart from being widely acknowledged as one of the great all time keepers by his fellow pros. Julio Cesar is "quite good" which means that he's not "very good" and therefore by your own definition means his team cannot win the World Cup.

Please stop Lech you really are making yourself look as foolish as an England fan who thinks they'll win the World Cup winning every game 3-0.
 
with the personnel england have plus the savvy of their manager coupled with the competitiveness of their league any less than a semi final place is underacievement. that's not an arrogant view imho. take italy who actually WON the world cup their players aren't as good as the english players put it this way how many of the italians would get in the england first 11? the keeper, pirlo and then...? before anyone mentions totti england have lamprd AND gerrard.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35711.msg940502#msg940502 date=1252483734]
with the personnel england have plus the savvy of their manager coupled with the competitiveness of their league any less than a semi final place is underacievement. that's not an arrogant view imho. take italy who actually WON the world cup their players aren't as good as the english players put it this way how many of the italians would get in the england first 11? the keeper, pirlo and then...? before anyone mentions totti england have lamprd AND gerrard.
[/quote]

Everyone has been talking about the players England have for years. If you can't build a team out of them, what good is it?

The team still look uncomfortable and lacking in cohesion... as they have done for years. Throughout this thread you've gone on about how many world class players England have... well... it's the same team that failed to qualify for Euro '08. I haven't seen much from Capello's England that has convinced me that things have changed so drastically that failing to reach the World Cup final would be an underachievement. I mean, come on... talk about sensationalist posting.

England in the last 10-15 years or so have bumbled their way past crap opposition and then fallen to pieces as soon as they meet a top side. Let's wait and see how we do when it's crunch time once again before declaring how wonderful everything is.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35711.msg940502#msg940502 date=1252483734]
with the personnel england have plus the savvy of their manager coupled with the competitiveness of their league any less than a semi final place is underacievement. that's not an arrogant view imho. take italy who actually WON the world cup their players aren't as good as the english players put it this way how many of the italians would get in the england first 11? the keeper, pirlo and then...? before anyone mentions totti england have lamprd AND gerrard.
[/quote]

Yup, and they've had these players togethor for 10 years and won fuck all. Actually haven't even come close to winning anything. Before that, they had great players too, and zip.

Take Rosco's post for example; Terry and Ferdinand - yup, great defenders. But they're past their best and have been part of England's back 4 for years and done zero. Cole? Past his best? The midfield? Lampard, Barry and Gerrard may be wonderful footballers - but England get nothing out of them - they look disjointed, out of position, lacking in cohesion, and get passed off the park byt slightly better than average opposition. Strikers? Well, let's just say that Rooney and Heskey aren't Vill and Torres.

You've always ALWAYS had good players, and dspite insistence to the contrary - have near;y always had good managers too. You'll still fail when it comes to the crunch though. You can't even beat Portugal.
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=35711.msg940486#msg940486 date=1252482696]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35711.msg940402#msg940402 date=1252448904]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35711.msg940081#msg940081 date=1252410644]
Semi's of Euro 96 too.

It's not great but it's something.
[/quote]

I've said this before, I'll say it again.

Euro 96 was a shit tournament packed full of shit teams.

It's only the English in some depserate attempt at creating something out of nothing that think it was anything remotely memorable.
[/quote]

Did England sleep with your wife once?
[/quote]

Did a St. George's Cross throw up over you?

I bet you cried when Paula Radcliffe collapsed at the Olympics.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35711.msg940504#msg940504 date=1252484127]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35711.msg940502#msg940502 date=1252483734]
with the personnel england have plus the savvy of their manager coupled with the competitiveness of their league any less than a semi final place is underacievement. that's not an arrogant view imho. take italy who actually WON the world cup their players aren't as good as the english players put it this way how many of the italians would get in the england first 11? the keeper, pirlo and then...? before anyone mentions totti england have lamprd AND gerrard.
[/quote]

Everyone has been talking about the players England have for years. If you can't build a team out of them, what good is it?

The team still look uncomfortable and lacking in cohesion... as they have done for years. Throughout this thread you've gone on about how many world class players England have... well... it's the same team that failed to qualify for Euro '08. I haven't seen much from Capello's England that has convinced me that things have changed so drastically that failing to reach the World Cup final would be an underachievement. I mean, come on... talk about sensationalist posting.

England in the last 10-15 years or so have bumbled their way past crap opposition and then fallen to pieces as soon as they meet a top side. Let's wait and see how we do when it's crunch time once again before declaring how wonderful everything is.

[/quote]

england's problem is they try to play the 'continental' game when they should stick to their strengths which is playing the game at a ridiculously high tempo using their power and strength to over power the opposition. very similar to liverpool on the road to istanbul what you lack in skill you make up for in grit and determination and a high tempo. there seems to be this desire to distance themselves from 'kick and rush' they should in fact EMBRACE it, and play to their strengths. you can't play a certain style of play every week in the premiership and then reinvent the wheel every time you have an international, that doesn't make sense and we shouldn't try.

lastly if a player excells in a position for his club play him in that for his country (like, DUH!!), again don't try to reinvent the wheel, many good english players have been made to look like CUNTS because their country tried to use them in a way not used by their club week in week out.
 
I agree with all of that, and it's significant that Capello frequently makes reference to the English spirit. The guy is sharp as a tack and clearly understands the need to maximise the things we do best, in an intelligent way.

I also reckon, though, that there's something very deep in English culture which works against us achieving top-level success in sport. Whole books have been written about why but, for whatever reason, we generally (there are always exceptions) have a dislike of showing off and I think there's a certain sense in which we feel deep down that going that extra mile to win things is a bit OTT, that there are ultimately more important things in life. In some ways that's a good thing, but obviously it doesn't fill trophy cabinets.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35711.msg940540#msg940540 date=1252489127]
england's problem is they try to play the 'continental' game when they should stick to their strengths which is playing the game at a ridiculously high tempo using their power and strength to over power the opposition. very similar to liverpool on the road to istanbul what you lack in skill you make up for in grit and determination and a high tempo. there seems to be this desire to distance themselves from 'kick and rush' they should in fact EMBRACE it, and play to their strengths. you can't play a certain style of play every week in the premiership and then reinvent the wheel every time you have an international, they doesn't make sense and we should try.

lastly if a player excells in a position for his club play him in that for his country (like, DUH!!), again don't try to reinvent the wheel, many good english players have been made to look like CUNTS because their country tried to use them in a way not used by their club week in week out.
[/quote]

Most of those players play a passing game at club level, so I don't know why you're suggesting that players under managers such as Benitez, Ferguson, Mourinho, Ancelotti and Wenger are unable of grasping the 'continental' game. Does every team in the Premiership play like Stoke and Bolton? No.

In actual fact, it's that headless chicken "kick and rush" approach that has often lost us games. See: the game against France where we lost our heads towards the end and more recently, the game against Russia were we again lost our cool after conceding... and that fucked us out of Euro '08.

There is something to be said for using our athleticism to our advantage, sure, but I really do think you're missing the point by a country mile.

The team don't play like a team and haven't for a long, long time. This is partly because for years and years, managers like Sven and McClaren have tried to shoehorn names into the side instead of developing a proper system that over time will produce a team full of players who know their jobs inside out and are comfortable playing with each other. You can attach blame to the media, to the FA... to whoever, but that's essentially the crux of it.

Things have improved under Capello to some degree, but we still lack time and players to really balance out the side.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35711.msg940554#msg940554 date=1252490601]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35711.msg940540#msg940540 date=1252489127]
england's problem is they try to play the 'continental' game when they should stick to their strengths which is playing the game at a ridiculously high tempo using their power and strength to over power the opposition. very similar to liverpool on the road to istanbul what you lack in skill you make up for in grit and determination and a high tempo. there seems to be this desire to distance themselves from 'kick and rush' they should in fact EMBRACE it, and play to their strengths. you can't play a certain style of play every week in the premiership and then reinvent the wheel every time you have an international, they doesn't make sense and we should try.

lastly if a player excells in a position for his club play him in that for his country (like, DUH!!), again don't try to reinvent the wheel, many good english players have been made to look like CUNTS because their country tried to use them in a way not used by their club week in week out.
[/quote]

Most of those players play a passing game at club level, so I don't know why you're suggesting that players under managers such as Benitez, Ferguson, Mourinho, Ancelotti and Wenger are unable of grasping the 'continental' game. Does every team in the Premiership play like Stoke and Bolton? No.

In actual fact, it's that headless chicken "kick and rush" approach that has often lost us games. See: the game against France where we lost our heads towards the end and more recently, the game against Russia were we again lost our cool after conceding... and that fucked us out of Euro '08.

There is something to be said for using our athleticism to our advantage, sure, but I really do think you're missing the point by a country mile.

The team don't play like a team and haven't for a long, long time. This is partly because for years and years, managers like Sven and McClaren have tried to shoehorn names into the side instead of developing a proper system that over time will produce a team full of players who know their jobs inside out and are comfortable playing with each other. You can attach blame to the media, to the FA... to whoever, but that's essentially the crux of it.

Things have improved under Capello to some degree, but we still lack time and players to really balance out the side.
[/quote]

ha ha 'kick and rush' came out a little wrong 😉
I meant first and foremost playing the game at a high tempo. I'm not talking about simply passing the ball, that should be a prerequisite for any footballer and any team I'm talking about passing the ball a very quick pace rather than a very slow pace of the continentals. we do that very few teams can live with it because (usually) they are not used to the frenetic pace.

basically I'm saying play at a very quick tempo, force the game, take the lead (you almost certainly will if you play at that pace) you will then tire (as you MUST) it's then england used use their brains slow the game down and patiently play the ball. usually in this instance they start to launch it forwards which is idiotic, it gives the oppsition the ball, you get more tired as you are continually chasing the ball and if the opposition score they will almost certainly win because they will have the momentum to get the deciding goal.

a) play at a high tempo for one half - take the lead
b) slow the pace of the game down - kill the game

that is playing to the strengths of england which a succession of england managers have simply failed to grasp.
 
Well, I've got no qualms with (a) - it certainly can't hurt. I'm not so sure about (b) though as I don't trust our midfield and defence to keep things tight.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35711.msg940570#msg940570 date=1252491529]
Well, I've got no qualms with (a) - it certainly can't hurt. I'm not so sure about (b) though as I don't trust our midfield and defence to keep things tight.
[/quote]

'b' is an inevitable and inescapable consequence of 'a', you can't play a high tempo game for 90 minutes it's not possible, it's how you deal with the game when you tire, in england's case, badly.
 
It is possible - you just need to have a lot of the possession and ensure that the opposition is doing most of the running and tire more than you do. This is how Barca win a lot of games.

Anyways, if you say we can't do (b) competently... surely (a) becomes a non-option.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35711.msg940580#msg940580 date=1252492215]
It is possible - you just need to have a lot of the possession and ensure that the opposition is doing most of the running and tire more than you do. This is how Barca win a lot of games.

Anyways, if you say we can't do (b) competently... surely (a) becomes a non-option.
[/quote]

barca's high tempo is different from our high tempo (or england's) in that they play a very fast game but the ball is doing most of the work so they tend to tire less easily but having said that when we played them at the nou camp (2007) they came out of the traps very quickly and then tired we got the upper hand and then eventually won the game so even moving the ball quickly without running much will tire you out.

I said we haven't been able to do 'b' competantly in the past but we now have a very competant manager, if cappello can't get england to do it then england wont be able to do it because he is about as good a manager as england are likely to get.
 
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