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Birmingham bid 8M for Babel ?
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[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38274.msg1029153#msg1029153 date=1262886046]
I personally think he was a very good talent who under the right management would have turned into a top quality player. You can talk about lacking workrate and attitude but that's part of what top managers coach into young players. Fergie's patience with Ronaldo despite his lack of end product early on his United career an illustration. However, Rafa's Liverpool was never going to be able to afford Ryan the same time and patience. (Unlike Ronaldo) he's hardly around a team crammed with top players already, which meant we required end product from him early on. Also, Rafa places so much emphasis on a rigid team unit, that having an unreliable maverick like Ryan would affect the balance of the side, particularly defensively.
I really would have liked to have seen Ryan given 40 games straight, even when he wasn't in form. Whilst short term, we may have suffered (by a lack of end product and workrate on his side), long term I think we would have gained a quality player.
..Or perhaps not. But I dare say in that time he'd have played a hell of a lot better than our other dutchman (who plays regardless of form/contribution).
You can be critical of Babel in attitude and workrate but I don't think anyone can truly say he had a fair crack of the whip. Moreover, in regards to the attitude and twitter (and whatnot), I remember one story from Ryan Giggs when he said Fergie was like a father to him early in his career. He'd make sure he wasn't partying, he'd discourage him from doing any media, hell he'd phone him up at 10pm to make sure he was in bed! A little OTT one could argue, but 10 PL medals later (still going strong), it looks great man-management of OGS part.
The long and short of it though is that Babel is now set in his ways. 10m is also a great price for someone who can barely make the bench. Rafa's lost far more money on other failures. I like Ryan as a player, and think he could still be a good contributor in a team. But that team won't be Liverpool, or at least not Rafa's Liverpool. We should take the money and move on.
[/quote]
an excellent post.
I personally think he was a very good talent who under the right management would have turned into a top quality player. You can talk about lacking workrate and attitude but that's part of what top managers coach into young players. Fergie's patience with Ronaldo despite his lack of end product early on his United career an illustration. However, Rafa's Liverpool was never going to be able to afford Ryan the same time and patience. (Unlike Ronaldo) he's hardly around a team crammed with top players already, which meant we required end product from him early on. Also, Rafa places so much emphasis on a rigid team unit, that having an unreliable maverick like Ryan would affect the balance of the side, particularly defensively.
I really would have liked to have seen Ryan given 40 games straight, even when he wasn't in form. Whilst short term, we may have suffered (by a lack of end product and workrate on his side), long term I think we would have gained a quality player.
..Or perhaps not. But I dare say in that time he'd have played a hell of a lot better than our other dutchman (who plays regardless of form/contribution).
You can be critical of Babel in attitude and workrate but I don't think anyone can truly say he had a fair crack of the whip. Moreover, in regards to the attitude and twitter (and whatnot), I remember one story from Ryan Giggs when he said Fergie was like a father to him early in his career. He'd make sure he wasn't partying, he'd discourage him from doing any media, hell he'd phone him up at 10pm to make sure he was in bed! A little OTT one could argue, but 10 PL medals later (still going strong), it looks great man-management of OGS part.
The long and short of it though is that Babel is now set in his ways. 10m is also a great price for someone who can barely make the bench. Rafa's lost far more money on other failures. I like Ryan as a player, and think he could still be a good contributor in a team. But that team won't be Liverpool, or at least not Rafa's Liverpool. We should take the money and move on.
[/quote]
an excellent post.
Let's hope that's a smokescreen.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38274.msg1029153#msg1029153 date=1262886046]
I personally think he was a very good talent who under the right management would have turned into a top quality player. You can talk about lacking workrate and attitude but that's part of what top managers coach into young players. Fergie's patience with Ronaldo despite his lack of end product early on his United career an illustration.
[/quote]
I dont think you coach workrate into a player, it's in some people and not in others. I don't think it'd be in Babel no matter who coached him. Ronaldo never had a problem with his workrate or attitude, if he had Fergie would never have given him the time to develop the other aspects of his game. If Babel had the same attitude he may well have gotten on a lot better here.
I personally think he was a very good talent who under the right management would have turned into a top quality player. You can talk about lacking workrate and attitude but that's part of what top managers coach into young players. Fergie's patience with Ronaldo despite his lack of end product early on his United career an illustration.
[/quote]
I dont think you coach workrate into a player, it's in some people and not in others. I don't think it'd be in Babel no matter who coached him. Ronaldo never had a problem with his workrate or attitude, if he had Fergie would never have given him the time to develop the other aspects of his game. If Babel had the same attitude he may well have gotten on a lot better here.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38274.msg1029183#msg1029183 date=1262887567]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38274.msg1029153#msg1029153 date=1262886046]
I personally think he was a very good talent who under the right management would have turned into a top quality player. You can talk about lacking workrate and attitude but that's part of what top managers coach into young players. Fergie's patience with Ronaldo despite his lack of end product early on his United career an illustration. However, Rafa's Liverpool was never going to be able to afford Ryan the same time and patience. (Unlike Ronaldo) he's hardly around a team crammed with top players already, which meant we required end product from him early on. Also, Rafa places so much emphasis on a rigid team unit, that having an unreliable maverick like Ryan would affect the balance of the side, particularly defensively.
I really would have liked to have seen Ryan given 40 games straight, even when he wasn't in form. Whilst short term, we may have suffered (by a lack of end product and workrate on his side), long term I think we would have gained a quality player.
..Or perhaps not. But I dare say in that time he'd have played a hell of a lot better than our other dutchman (who plays regardless of form/contribution).
You can be critical of Babel in attitude and workrate but I don't think anyone can truly say he had a fair crack of the whip. Moreover, in regards to the attitude and twitter (and whatnot), I remember one story from Ryan Giggs when he said Fergie was like a father to him early in his career. He'd make sure he wasn't partying, he'd discourage him from doing any media, hell he'd phone him up at 10pm to make sure he was in bed! A little OTT one could argue, but 10 PL medals later (still going strong), it looks great man-management of OGS part.
The long and short of it though is that Babel is now set in his ways. 10m is also a great price for someone who can barely make the bench. Rafa's lost far more money on other failures. I like Ryan as a player, and think he could still be a good contributor in a team. But that team won't be Liverpool, or at least not Rafa's Liverpool. We should take the money and move on.
[/quote]
an excellent post.
[/quote]
Ronaldo is by no means a valid example, because Ronaldo clearly had the quality but just lacked the decisive edge, he never really shirked it, even though he was a diving cunt. It was always a case of 'when' not 'if'. He was a tremendous talent even when people used to laugh at him for overdoing the step-overs while ultimately being hit and miss with the end product.
Babel just doesn't look that good, he has raw ability in pace and the ability to occasionally hit a ball with power and technique, but that's it. He doesn't turn defenders inside out using his pace, he doesn't look like a 'clever' footballer in terms of making the right decisions (running into blind alleys is frustrating as fuck), and he just doesn't possess the control, touch, consistent technique, confidence, edge or desire to make it.
I really can't believe that some people still feel he might turn good, and I despair that some people still think he might be the next Henry. Did people even watch the French guy? He had the most brilliant close control and was 'clever'. I really don't see how that draws ANY comparison to Babel. The only comparisons are that they're both black and they're both right footed and like to cut in from the left.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38274.msg1029153#msg1029153 date=1262886046]
I personally think he was a very good talent who under the right management would have turned into a top quality player. You can talk about lacking workrate and attitude but that's part of what top managers coach into young players. Fergie's patience with Ronaldo despite his lack of end product early on his United career an illustration. However, Rafa's Liverpool was never going to be able to afford Ryan the same time and patience. (Unlike Ronaldo) he's hardly around a team crammed with top players already, which meant we required end product from him early on. Also, Rafa places so much emphasis on a rigid team unit, that having an unreliable maverick like Ryan would affect the balance of the side, particularly defensively.
I really would have liked to have seen Ryan given 40 games straight, even when he wasn't in form. Whilst short term, we may have suffered (by a lack of end product and workrate on his side), long term I think we would have gained a quality player.
..Or perhaps not. But I dare say in that time he'd have played a hell of a lot better than our other dutchman (who plays regardless of form/contribution).
You can be critical of Babel in attitude and workrate but I don't think anyone can truly say he had a fair crack of the whip. Moreover, in regards to the attitude and twitter (and whatnot), I remember one story from Ryan Giggs when he said Fergie was like a father to him early in his career. He'd make sure he wasn't partying, he'd discourage him from doing any media, hell he'd phone him up at 10pm to make sure he was in bed! A little OTT one could argue, but 10 PL medals later (still going strong), it looks great man-management of OGS part.
The long and short of it though is that Babel is now set in his ways. 10m is also a great price for someone who can barely make the bench. Rafa's lost far more money on other failures. I like Ryan as a player, and think he could still be a good contributor in a team. But that team won't be Liverpool, or at least not Rafa's Liverpool. We should take the money and move on.
[/quote]
an excellent post.
[/quote]
Ronaldo is by no means a valid example, because Ronaldo clearly had the quality but just lacked the decisive edge, he never really shirked it, even though he was a diving cunt. It was always a case of 'when' not 'if'. He was a tremendous talent even when people used to laugh at him for overdoing the step-overs while ultimately being hit and miss with the end product.
Babel just doesn't look that good, he has raw ability in pace and the ability to occasionally hit a ball with power and technique, but that's it. He doesn't turn defenders inside out using his pace, he doesn't look like a 'clever' footballer in terms of making the right decisions (running into blind alleys is frustrating as fuck), and he just doesn't possess the control, touch, consistent technique, confidence, edge or desire to make it.
I really can't believe that some people still feel he might turn good, and I despair that some people still think he might be the next Henry. Did people even watch the French guy? He had the most brilliant close control and was 'clever'. I really don't see how that draws ANY comparison to Babel. The only comparisons are that they're both black and they're both right footed and like to cut in from the left.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38274.msg1029219#msg1029219 date=1262891169]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38274.msg1029183#msg1029183 date=1262887567]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38274.msg1029153#msg1029153 date=1262886046]
I personally think he was a very good talent who under the right management would have turned into a top quality player. You can talk about lacking workrate and attitude but that's part of what top managers coach into young players. Fergie's patience with Ronaldo despite his lack of end product early on his United career an illustration. However, Rafa's Liverpool was never going to be able to afford Ryan the same time and patience. (Unlike Ronaldo) he's hardly around a team crammed with top players already, which meant we required end product from him early on. Also, Rafa places so much emphasis on a rigid team unit, that having an unreliable maverick like Ryan would affect the balance of the side, particularly defensively.
I really would have liked to have seen Ryan given 40 games straight, even when he wasn't in form. Whilst short term, we may have suffered (by a lack of end product and workrate on his side), long term I think we would have gained a quality player.
..Or perhaps not. But I dare say in that time he'd have played a hell of a lot better than our other dutchman (who plays regardless of form/contribution).
You can be critical of Babel in attitude and workrate but I don't think anyone can truly say he had a fair crack of the whip. Moreover, in regards to the attitude and twitter (and whatnot), I remember one story from Ryan Giggs when he said Fergie was like a father to him early in his career. He'd make sure he wasn't partying, he'd discourage him from doing any media, hell he'd phone him up at 10pm to make sure he was in bed! A little OTT one could argue, but 10 PL medals later (still going strong), it looks great man-management of OGS part.
The long and short of it though is that Babel is now set in his ways. 10m is also a great price for someone who can barely make the bench. Rafa's lost far more money on other failures. I like Ryan as a player, and think he could still be a good contributor in a team. But that team won't be Liverpool, or at least not Rafa's Liverpool. We should take the money and move on.
[/quote]
an excellent post.
[/quote]
Ronaldo is by no means a valid example, because Ronaldo clearly had the quality but just lacked the decisive edge, he never really shirked it, even though he was a diving cunt. It was always a case 'when' not 'if'. He was a tremendous talent even when people used to laugh at him for overdoing the stepovers while ultimately being hit and miss with the end product.
Babel just doesn't look that good, he has raw ability in pace and the ability to occasionally hit a ball with power and technique, but that's it. He doesn't turn defenders inside out using his pace, he doesn't look like a 'clever' footballer in terms of making the right decisions (running into blind alleys is frustrating as fuck), and he just doesn't possess the control, touch, consistent technique, confidence, edge or desire to make it.
I really can't believe that some people still feel he might turn good, and I despair that some people still think he might be the next Henry. Did people even watch the French guy? He had the most brilliant close control and was 'clever'. I really don't see how that draws ANY comparison to Babel. The only comparisons are that they're both black and they're both right footed and like to cut in from the left.
[/quote]They both nearly played for Liverpool.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38274.msg1029183#msg1029183 date=1262887567]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38274.msg1029153#msg1029153 date=1262886046]
I personally think he was a very good talent who under the right management would have turned into a top quality player. You can talk about lacking workrate and attitude but that's part of what top managers coach into young players. Fergie's patience with Ronaldo despite his lack of end product early on his United career an illustration. However, Rafa's Liverpool was never going to be able to afford Ryan the same time and patience. (Unlike Ronaldo) he's hardly around a team crammed with top players already, which meant we required end product from him early on. Also, Rafa places so much emphasis on a rigid team unit, that having an unreliable maverick like Ryan would affect the balance of the side, particularly defensively.
I really would have liked to have seen Ryan given 40 games straight, even when he wasn't in form. Whilst short term, we may have suffered (by a lack of end product and workrate on his side), long term I think we would have gained a quality player.
..Or perhaps not. But I dare say in that time he'd have played a hell of a lot better than our other dutchman (who plays regardless of form/contribution).
You can be critical of Babel in attitude and workrate but I don't think anyone can truly say he had a fair crack of the whip. Moreover, in regards to the attitude and twitter (and whatnot), I remember one story from Ryan Giggs when he said Fergie was like a father to him early in his career. He'd make sure he wasn't partying, he'd discourage him from doing any media, hell he'd phone him up at 10pm to make sure he was in bed! A little OTT one could argue, but 10 PL medals later (still going strong), it looks great man-management of OGS part.
The long and short of it though is that Babel is now set in his ways. 10m is also a great price for someone who can barely make the bench. Rafa's lost far more money on other failures. I like Ryan as a player, and think he could still be a good contributor in a team. But that team won't be Liverpool, or at least not Rafa's Liverpool. We should take the money and move on.
[/quote]
an excellent post.
[/quote]
Ronaldo is by no means a valid example, because Ronaldo clearly had the quality but just lacked the decisive edge, he never really shirked it, even though he was a diving cunt. It was always a case 'when' not 'if'. He was a tremendous talent even when people used to laugh at him for overdoing the stepovers while ultimately being hit and miss with the end product.
Babel just doesn't look that good, he has raw ability in pace and the ability to occasionally hit a ball with power and technique, but that's it. He doesn't turn defenders inside out using his pace, he doesn't look like a 'clever' footballer in terms of making the right decisions (running into blind alleys is frustrating as fuck), and he just doesn't possess the control, touch, consistent technique, confidence, edge or desire to make it.
I really can't believe that some people still feel he might turn good, and I despair that some people still think he might be the next Henry. Did people even watch the French guy? He had the most brilliant close control and was 'clever'. I really don't see how that draws ANY comparison to Babel. The only comparisons are that they're both black and they're both right footed and like to cut in from the left.
[/quote]They both nearly played for Liverpool.
Yeah, I appreciate the sentiment but bringing Ronaldo and Henry into the equation just makes it a bit laughable
And I'm a Babel fan. Sort of.
And I'm a Babel fan. Sort of.
S
Squiggles
Guest
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38274.msg1029219#msg1029219 date=1262891169]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38274.msg1029183#msg1029183 date=1262887567]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38274.msg1029153#msg1029153 date=1262886046]
I personally think he was a very good talent who under the right management would have turned into a top quality player. You can talk about lacking workrate and attitude but that's part of what top managers coach into young players. Fergie's patience with Ronaldo despite his lack of end product early on his United career an illustration. However, Rafa's Liverpool was never going to be able to afford Ryan the same time and patience. (Unlike Ronaldo) he's hardly around a team crammed with top players already, which meant we required end product from him early on. Also, Rafa places so much emphasis on a rigid team unit, that having an unreliable maverick like Ryan would affect the balance of the side, particularly defensively.
I really would have liked to have seen Ryan given 40 games straight, even when he wasn't in form. Whilst short term, we may have suffered (by a lack of end product and workrate on his side), long term I think we would have gained a quality player.
..Or perhaps not. But I dare say in that time he'd have played a hell of a lot better than our other dutchman (who plays regardless of form/contribution).
You can be critical of Babel in attitude and workrate but I don't think anyone can truly say he had a fair crack of the whip. Moreover, in regards to the attitude and twitter (and whatnot), I remember one story from Ryan Giggs when he said Fergie was like a father to him early in his career. He'd make sure he wasn't partying, he'd discourage him from doing any media, hell he'd phone him up at 10pm to make sure he was in bed! A little OTT one could argue, but 10 PL medals later (still going strong), it looks great man-management of OGS part.
The long and short of it though is that Babel is now set in his ways. 10m is also a great price for someone who can barely make the bench. Rafa's lost far more money on other failures. I like Ryan as a player, and think he could still be a good contributor in a team. But that team won't be Liverpool, or at least not Rafa's Liverpool. We should take the money and move on.
[/quote]
an excellent post.
[/quote]
Ronaldo is by no means a valid example, because Ronaldo clearly had the quality but just lacked the decisive edge, he never really shirked it, even though he was a diving cunt. It was always a case of 'when' not 'if'. He was a tremendous talent even when people used to laugh at him for overdoing the step-overs while ultimately being hit and miss with the end product.
Babel just doesn't look that good, he has raw ability in pace and the ability to occasionally hit a ball with power and technique, but that's it. He doesn't turn defenders inside out using his pace, he doesn't look like a 'clever' footballer in terms of making the right decisions (running into blind alleys is frustrating as fuck), and he just doesn't possess the control, touch, consistent technique, confidence, edge or desire to make it.
I really can't believe that some people still feel he might turn good, and I despair that some people still think he might be the next Henry. Did people even watch the French guy? He had the most brilliant close control and was 'clever'. I really don't see how that draws ANY comparison to Babel. The only comparisons are that they're both black and they're both right footed and like to cut in from the left.
[/quote]
I don't think the players are hugely comparable, but there are some similarities. Ronaldo was by no means a 'clever' footballer when he arrived. He was mocked up and down the country for being a 'show pony' - a cocky little kid trying to play football amongst the big boys; regularly making the wrong decisions on the football pitch. In fact it got so bad I remember RVN, at the time their star player, tearing his hair time after time as Ronaldo regularly fucked up. But whilst our own prodigy hasn't developed at all since his arrival, Ferguson's developed into the most devastating footballer the English game has arguably ever seen. Now you can argue that a lot of this down to the players desire, application and willing and of course you'd be right. However there has to be some flaws in our management or coaching for a player not to develop under their guidance. We can point the finger all day long at Babel but really it's more of a collective failure, IMO.
Also you have to question why Benitez - a man who mentions 'mentality' ever other word - would buy a player with such a questionable attitude. Another example of Benitez not doing his homework? Possibly.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38274.msg1029183#msg1029183 date=1262887567]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38274.msg1029153#msg1029153 date=1262886046]
I personally think he was a very good talent who under the right management would have turned into a top quality player. You can talk about lacking workrate and attitude but that's part of what top managers coach into young players. Fergie's patience with Ronaldo despite his lack of end product early on his United career an illustration. However, Rafa's Liverpool was never going to be able to afford Ryan the same time and patience. (Unlike Ronaldo) he's hardly around a team crammed with top players already, which meant we required end product from him early on. Also, Rafa places so much emphasis on a rigid team unit, that having an unreliable maverick like Ryan would affect the balance of the side, particularly defensively.
I really would have liked to have seen Ryan given 40 games straight, even when he wasn't in form. Whilst short term, we may have suffered (by a lack of end product and workrate on his side), long term I think we would have gained a quality player.
..Or perhaps not. But I dare say in that time he'd have played a hell of a lot better than our other dutchman (who plays regardless of form/contribution).
You can be critical of Babel in attitude and workrate but I don't think anyone can truly say he had a fair crack of the whip. Moreover, in regards to the attitude and twitter (and whatnot), I remember one story from Ryan Giggs when he said Fergie was like a father to him early in his career. He'd make sure he wasn't partying, he'd discourage him from doing any media, hell he'd phone him up at 10pm to make sure he was in bed! A little OTT one could argue, but 10 PL medals later (still going strong), it looks great man-management of OGS part.
The long and short of it though is that Babel is now set in his ways. 10m is also a great price for someone who can barely make the bench. Rafa's lost far more money on other failures. I like Ryan as a player, and think he could still be a good contributor in a team. But that team won't be Liverpool, or at least not Rafa's Liverpool. We should take the money and move on.
[/quote]
an excellent post.
[/quote]
Ronaldo is by no means a valid example, because Ronaldo clearly had the quality but just lacked the decisive edge, he never really shirked it, even though he was a diving cunt. It was always a case of 'when' not 'if'. He was a tremendous talent even when people used to laugh at him for overdoing the step-overs while ultimately being hit and miss with the end product.
Babel just doesn't look that good, he has raw ability in pace and the ability to occasionally hit a ball with power and technique, but that's it. He doesn't turn defenders inside out using his pace, he doesn't look like a 'clever' footballer in terms of making the right decisions (running into blind alleys is frustrating as fuck), and he just doesn't possess the control, touch, consistent technique, confidence, edge or desire to make it.
I really can't believe that some people still feel he might turn good, and I despair that some people still think he might be the next Henry. Did people even watch the French guy? He had the most brilliant close control and was 'clever'. I really don't see how that draws ANY comparison to Babel. The only comparisons are that they're both black and they're both right footed and like to cut in from the left.
[/quote]
I don't think the players are hugely comparable, but there are some similarities. Ronaldo was by no means a 'clever' footballer when he arrived. He was mocked up and down the country for being a 'show pony' - a cocky little kid trying to play football amongst the big boys; regularly making the wrong decisions on the football pitch. In fact it got so bad I remember RVN, at the time their star player, tearing his hair time after time as Ronaldo regularly fucked up. But whilst our own prodigy hasn't developed at all since his arrival, Ferguson's developed into the most devastating footballer the English game has arguably ever seen. Now you can argue that a lot of this down to the players desire, application and willing and of course you'd be right. However there has to be some flaws in our management or coaching for a player not to develop under their guidance. We can point the finger all day long at Babel but really it's more of a collective failure, IMO.
Also you have to question why Benitez - a man who mentions 'mentality' ever other word - would buy a player with such a questionable attitude. Another example of Benitez not doing his homework? Possibly.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38274.msg1029226#msg1029226 date=1262892115]Now you can argue that a lot of this down to the players desire, application and willing and of course you'd be right. However there has to be some flaws in our management or coaching for a player not to develop under their guidance. We can point the finger all day long at Babel but really it's more of a collective failure, IMO.
Also you have to question why Benitez - a man who mentions 'mentality' ever other word - would buy a player with such a questionable attitude. Another example of Benitez not doing his homework? Possibly.
[/quote]
I've argued those two points all along. The whole Babel thing has been kinda weird.
Also you have to question why Benitez - a man who mentions 'mentality' ever other word - would buy a player with such a questionable attitude. Another example of Benitez not doing his homework? Possibly.
[/quote]
I've argued those two points all along. The whole Babel thing has been kinda weird.
I agree with most of that squiggs, I'm sure there is collective responsibility to be had, especially in terms of why Benitez went for someone with such issues over his mentality. But.. regards Ronaldo, he at least had the self belief and willingness to learn and develop. You only have to look at Torres to see that a player with confidence, in the right environment and with the right coaching, can develop. So why did it happen with Torres and not Babel? Why had Benitez gotten the best out of Gerrard? He might have limited his explosiveness, but ultimately, statistically at least, he's turned him into a more productive player.
S
Squiggles
Guest
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38274.msg1029229#msg1029229 date=1262892426]
I agree with most of that squiggs, I'm sure there is collective responsibility to be had, especially in terms of why Benitez went for someone with such issues over his mentality. But.. regards Ronaldo, he at least had the self belief and willingness to learn and develop. You only have to look at Torres to see that a player with confidence, in the right environment and with the right coaching, can develop. So why did it happen with Torres and not Babel? Why had Benitez gotten the best out of Gerrard? He might have limited his explosiveness, but ultimately, statistically at least, he's turned him into a more productive player.
[/quote]
I thought Torres would come up when I was posting that. But then I thought Torres has been sensational ever since he stepped out at Stanford Bridge. Such a high level of performance certainly wasn't coached into him during a few months of a summer or arguably over a whole season. That would make Benitez a miracle worker, which he isn't. That may sound Rafa can do no right, which I don't intend it to be; He deserve huge credit for the transfer - it's been a fucking dream after all. I'm just not sure it's a legitimate example of great coaching.
Gerrard has no doubt improved under Benitez. He can have that one on his list, but it's not enough to make me be hopeful of the next young starlet to come to Liverpool because: a) they likely to younger than Gerrard; b) unlikely to be as talented nor as motivated to succeed for LFC.
And given we're desperately short of funds and by all reports have some promising youth players on are books, Benitez will have to start using them instead of filling the squad full of rubbish squad players. With regards to youth coaching, his real test is yet come.
I agree with most of that squiggs, I'm sure there is collective responsibility to be had, especially in terms of why Benitez went for someone with such issues over his mentality. But.. regards Ronaldo, he at least had the self belief and willingness to learn and develop. You only have to look at Torres to see that a player with confidence, in the right environment and with the right coaching, can develop. So why did it happen with Torres and not Babel? Why had Benitez gotten the best out of Gerrard? He might have limited his explosiveness, but ultimately, statistically at least, he's turned him into a more productive player.
[/quote]
I thought Torres would come up when I was posting that. But then I thought Torres has been sensational ever since he stepped out at Stanford Bridge. Such a high level of performance certainly wasn't coached into him during a few months of a summer or arguably over a whole season. That would make Benitez a miracle worker, which he isn't. That may sound Rafa can do no right, which I don't intend it to be; He deserve huge credit for the transfer - it's been a fucking dream after all. I'm just not sure it's a legitimate example of great coaching.
Gerrard has no doubt improved under Benitez. He can have that one on his list, but it's not enough to make me be hopeful of the next young starlet to come to Liverpool because: a) they likely to younger than Gerrard; b) unlikely to be as talented nor as motivated to succeed for LFC.
And given we're desperately short of funds and by all reports have some promising youth players on are books, Benitez will have to start using them instead of filling the squad full of rubbish squad players. With regards to youth coaching, his real test is yet come.
probably ronaldo would have gone on to become the great player he did for manu at liverpool but if he were dicked around in his formative years who knows. look at glen johnson, he needed regular football to blossom I doubt you would have seen an improve in johnson if he stayed at chelsea and the fletting appearences had continued.
yes babel is shit, blah blah I just wish he had been given 10 games in a row (it's not a lot is it?) whether he was good, bad or indifferent to prove his shiteness beyond any shadow of doubt.
yes babel is shit, blah blah I just wish he had been given 10 games in a row (it's not a lot is it?) whether he was good, bad or indifferent to prove his shiteness beyond any shadow of doubt.
i'd still urge rafa to start him every game for the remainder of the season, otherwise just fucking sell him 'cos sporadic appearances will get us nowhere.
on the right.
[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=38274.msg1029301#msg1029301 date=1262901327]
on the right.
[/quote]
I'd love an answer once and for all with Babel.
Play him in every game and we'll all get our answer.
Will Rafa do that though? Will he balls.
on the right.
[/quote]
I'd love an answer once and for all with Babel.
Play him in every game and we'll all get our answer.
Will Rafa do that though? Will he balls.
Babel playing in every game, fitness providing, from now until the end of the season.
People have called for Ryan to get a consecutive run of games before and on one or two occasions, it has actually happened. The thing is, another half-arsed, gutless performance later and they want him nowhere near the club, never mind the first team.
Yes, Babel may have done better if he'd been given more opportunities. However, I have no problem with Rafa instilling in the players the notion that you have to work hard to make it at this club. If that comes at the expense of Ryan fucking Babel, then so be it.
Some players deserve opportunities, some don't. Babel doesn't.
Yes, Babel may have done better if he'd been given more opportunities. However, I have no problem with Rafa instilling in the players the notion that you have to work hard to make it at this club. If that comes at the expense of Ryan fucking Babel, then so be it.
Some players deserve opportunities, some don't. Babel doesn't.
He doesn't deserve to play regularly
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=38274.msg1029325#msg1029325 date=1262902737]
He doesn't deserve to play regularly
[/quote]
I agree.
Neither does Kuyt tbf.
EDIT - But i'd like to see him play for the sole reason of knowing if he can make it or not.
He doesn't deserve to play regularly
[/quote]
I agree.
Neither does Kuyt tbf.
EDIT - But i'd like to see him play for the sole reason of knowing if he can make it or not.
[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=38274.msg1029299#msg1029299 date=1262901271]
i'd still urge rafa to start him every game for the remainder of the season, otherwise just fucking sell him 'cos sporadic appearances will get us nowhere.
[/quote]
Yup.
It's time for Rafa to shit or get off the pot.
i'd still urge rafa to start him every game for the remainder of the season, otherwise just fucking sell him 'cos sporadic appearances will get us nowhere.
[/quote]
Yup.
It's time for Rafa to shit or get off the pot.
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