• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Benitez's tactics require 14 outfield players

Forums Unread posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
manwithnoname

manwithnoname

Bravo old man. Bravo.
Banned
It's quite incredible.

Through a combination of his defensive nature, dreadful squad, and lack of trust in some players, we have been lumbered with a formation that really needs three more outfield players to work.

Lucas is so cataclysmically inept that he really needs two more central midfielders on the pitch in order to make our midfield function. Se we get Masher sitting next to him, and Gerrard playing ahead of him. And Aquilani getting 30 seconds against the eorst European opposition we've ever faced.

The CBs are pinned back almost by our own two-man, deep-sitting screen, so that's four men patrolling the same 30 yards of space and passing sideways and backwards to eachother.

Insua is so shit he needs to play either the hard-working (if slow) Riera ahead of him. Or even better, another left-back in Aurelio.

And Magic Johnson is very attacking, so Kuyt has been instructed to do an even more defensive job that he usually does, so much so that he looks more of a right-back than Magic.

So we have a situation where players are overlapping in defence, leaving gaping holes in our attack - which because of the restrictions elsewhere, only ever allows for ONE player to play up there - and without the pacy, attack-minded support from the flanks that this foremation needs.

So it's no real wonder that we need one of the best and quickest strikers in the world to play there, otherwise we look fucked and toothless.

I don't see where Benitez thought Keane fitted this formation, or indeed why he bought Purple (who also seems to require two players to baby-sit him)
 
Unfortunately a lot of valid points there in that many of our newer players seem to solve one problem but become the source of a new problem.
 
You say his tactics require 14 outfield players, yet they were fine with three less last year, and the rest of your argument really is based on your typical disgust for certain personnel, rather than the tactics themselves.

What is certainly the case is that Alonso's passing range from that redundant 30 yards of space enabled us to very quickly find outlet balls wide which established possession further up the pitch. We can have two players there that can't pass, and it won't work, they need to turn pass and move, and pass with some pace. It wasn't even great football, but we started to do the odd bit of this against Bolton, who, to be fair, didn't contest that 30 yards much.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=38771.msg1048444#msg1048444 date=1265189839]
You say his tactics require 14 outfield players, yet they were fine with three less last year, and the rest of your argument really is based on your typical disgust for certain personnel, rather than the tactics themselves.

What is certainly the case is that Alonso's passing range from that redundant 30 yards of space enabled us to very quickly find outlet balls wide which established possession further up the pitch. We can have two players there that can't pass, and it won't work, they need to turn pass and move, and pass with some pace. It wasn't even great football, but we started to do the odd bit of this against Bolton, who, to be fair, didn't contest that 30 yards much.
[/quote]

We weren't that fine. We had to have every single one of our world-class players playing at the very top of their games in order to sustain a mini-resurgence that left us runners-up and trophy-less again.

It required superhuman efforts from players like Gerrard and Torres to essentially do the jobs of two players, which is what Gerrard has been dong for Benitez since he got here (remember his season out on the right? He spent half his time covering for Sissoko's limitations in CM aswell, but he's good enough to do that).

But his formation, even with the talent of Carra, Reina, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres is just stretched tighter than a drum. It doesn't afford any dip in form, or loss via injury (or transfer) of those players. As soon as that happens, we implode, because then we have players who can't even do their OWN job trying to cover for the deficiencies in other parts of the pitch.

Benitez buys too many players who need "the right partner" or "extra help" or "someone who can tackle/ pass/ score goals/ track back" next to or around them. Too many players that can't function at all when in any way isolated. Too many players who simply don't possess more than ONE skill. And in some cases have none at all.

So when we try and play that Benitez formation without some of the world's best players, at their very best, we look shit, slow, laboured and we are out of every competition by October.

We have a formation that simply doesn't work when you have players like Lucas, Insua, Eggnog et al trying to play in it. The displays don't just drop off, they disappear.
 
I agree with a lot of that although I will say alonso solved a lot of those problems in that

a) he was always a passing option to the defenders, an easy out ball and once he received the ball more often then not he picked out someone high up the pitch.

b) he was always had the eye for an early pass and kept the ball ridiculously well meaning players on the wings could take more of a gamble in staying there because more often then not they would receive the ball.

c) he was a competent holding midfielder which gave the likes of masher and gerrard more licence to roam further up field without having to come back every second.

d) he kept play ticking over which meant the entire team gained confidence in passing the ball because we kept it more often.

e) he had the ability to slow the game down (who in the current sqaud has the ability to do this?) which meant once we took the lead he has the ability to take the sting out of the game so the likelihood of conceeding a late goal was reduced because the opposition weren't able to build up momentum.

so a big step in the right direction without making wholesale changes to the sqaud is find someone that can do what alonso did. piss of piece, all he did was pass the ball, right?
 
I think it would have been easier to say we need to change our shape and bring in better footballers?
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38771.msg1048462#msg1048462 date=1265192608]
It required superhuman efforts from players like Gerrard and Torres to essentially do the jobs of two players, which is what Gerrard has been dong for Benitez since he got here (remember his season out on the right? He spent half his time covering for Sissoko's limitations in CM aswell, but he's good enough to do that).[/quote]

We just need to buy more "superhuman" then.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38771.msg1048462#msg1048462 date=1265192608]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=38771.msg1048444#msg1048444 date=1265189839]
You say his tactics require 14 outfield players, yet they were fine with three less last year, and the rest of your argument really is based on your typical disgust for certain personnel, rather than the tactics themselves.

What is certainly the case is that Alonso's passing range from that redundant 30 yards of space enabled us to very quickly find outlet balls wide which established possession further up the pitch. We can have two players there that can't pass, and it won't work, they need to turn pass and move, and pass with some pace. It wasn't even great football, but we started to do the odd bit of this against Bolton, who, to be fair, didn't contest that 30 yards much.
[/quote]

We weren't that fine. We had to have every single one of our world-class players playing at the very top of their games in order to sustain a mini-resurgence that left us runners-up and trophy-less again.

It required superhuman efforts from players like Gerrard and Torres to essentially do the jobs of two players, which is what Gerrard has been dong for Benitez since he got here (remember his season out on the right? He spent half his time covering for Sissoko's limitations in CM aswell, but he's good enough to do that).

But his formation, even with the talent of Carra, Reina, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres is just stretched tighter than a drum. It doesn't afford any dip in form, or loss via injury (or transfer) of those players. As soon as that happens, we implode, because then we have players who can't even do their OWN job trying to cover for the deficiencies in other parts of the pitch.

Benitez buys too many players who need "the right partner" or "extra help" or "someone who can tackle/ pass/ score goals/ track back" next to or around them. Too many players that can't function at all when in any way isolated. Too many players who simply don't possess more than ONE skill. And in some cases have none at all.

So when we try and play that Benitez formation without some of the world's best players, at their very best, we look shit, slow, laboured and we are out of every competition by October.

We have a formation that simply doesn't work when you have players like Lucas, Insua, Eggnog et al trying to play in it. The displays don't just drop off, they disappear.

[/quote]

So it required superhuman efforts from Torres and Gerrard (last season) despite them both missing large chunks of it?

I agree with some of your points, but saying that it required all of our top players being at the top of their game, well isn't that just logical? You don't get success if you don't have the majority of your players playing well, infact success is often a result of percentages. Chelsea struggled last season for the same reasons, injury, poor form, instability etc. Towards the end of the season and continuing into this one, you can see the difference the continued presence of some of their 'top' players has made.
 
The title alone makes the post pretty much preposterous so I wont get started on all the holes in the argument.

We get it, you don't like Lucas.
 
I said in the summer that last year success was built on the likes of Kuyt, Alonso and Yossi playing out of their skins for large chunks of the season. That's how we were able to cope with the loss of Torres and Gerrard. That was never going to be sustainable particularly with the loss of Alonso. We needed investment in the squad and it didn't come.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=38771.msg1048484#msg1048484 date=1265195255]
I said in the summer that last year success was built on the likes of Kuyt, Alonso and Yossi playing out of their skins for large chunks of the season. That's how we were able to cope with the loss of Torres and Gerrard. That was never going to be sustainable particularly with the loss of Alonso. We needed investment in the squad and it didn't come.
[/quote]

We should strengthen our last season's squad, after coming so close to the title (that's what other teams are doing). We're falling further behind, after the departure of Alonso, Arbeloa and Hyypia.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38771.msg1048432#msg1048432 date=1265187372]
It's quite incredible.

Through a combination of his defensive nature, dreadful squad, and lack of trust in some players, we have been lumbered with a formation that really needs three more outfield players to work.

Lucas is so cataclysmically inept that he really needs two more central midfielders on the pitch in order to make our midfield function. Se we get Masher sitting next to him, and Gerrard playing ahead of him. And Aquilani getting 30 seconds against the eorst European opposition we've ever faced.

The CBs are pinned back almost by our own two-man, deep-sitting screen, so that's four men patrolling the same 30 yards of space and passing sideways and backwards to eachother.

Insua is so shit he needs to play either the hard-working (if slow) Riera ahead of him. Or even better, another left-back in Aurelio.

And Magic Johnson is very attacking, so Kuyt has been instructed to do an even more defensive job that he usually does, so much so that he looks more of a right-back than Magic.

So we have a situation where players are overlapping in defence, leaving gaping holes in our attack - which because of the restrictions elsewhere, only ever allows for ONE player to play up there - and without the pacy, attack-minded support from the flanks that this foremation needs.

So it's no real wonder that we need one of the best and quickest strikers in the world to play there, otherwise we look fucked and toothless.

I don't see where Benitez thought Keane fitted this formation, or indeed why he bought Purple (who also seems to require two players to baby-sit him)


[/quote]

That's a pretty poor post.



Your only point is that the players aren't good enough in their respective positions.
This doesn't mean that his tactics require 14 outfield players.

His tactics are based on 10 outfield players. They will never require 14 outfield players.

Perhaps you meant to say his tactics require 10 outfield players with a more complete set of skills and a higher level of fitness?

(Which is equally dumb because I'd imagine any set of tactics / formation in the premier league requires good players to be successful. I'd also imagine that tactics that only require 10 limited players aren't going to be very exciting)


Perhaps a more intelligent comment would be that his tactics are limited in possibilities and space because each player is only committed to a limited number of specialised roles. However, I don't think this is really true either. As someone else has pointed out, with good players in all positions we did quite well without being one-dimensional so the problem isn't really with the tactics but the personnel.



All said and done though, your assessment of our squad just boils down to your irrational dislike of Lucas. In your post you pretty much finger him as the cause of all our problems which isn't true at all and makes you look a bit silly.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=38771.msg1048484#msg1048484 date=1265195255]
I said in the summer that last year success was built on the likes of Kuyt, Alonso and Yossi playing out of their skins for large chunks of the season. That's how we were able to cope with the loss of Torres and Gerrard. That was never going to be sustainable particularly with the loss of Alonso.
[/quote]

It also helped that we had men sent off against us last year in many games which saw us turn likely draws/defeats into wins (ironically for fouls on Alonso).

Looking at the points situation this year, we really SHOULD still be in the title race. If luck went our way, as it did last year.. the games against Stoke away, Blackburn away, Portsmouth away and Wolves away (all teams we should be beating quite handily) would see us have an extra 9points which have us 50pts and well amongst the title contenders.

Last season we were good in parts (especially towards the end). But in many ways, we had a lot of luck go our way.. the 'luck' of champions some claimed.. and we won the all the big games.. but yet we still finished second?

I'm just not sure a Benitez team will ever get better than that.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38771.msg1048479#msg1048479 date=1265194877]
The title alone makes the post pretty much preposterous so I wont get started on all the holes in the argument.

[/quote]

No, go on. I'm on fucking tenterhooks.
 
So Brendan, do you think there's a formation that would allow Lucas, Insua et al to function better as a team? Or are you just saying our players aren't good enough?
 
The basic point is right.

We have a lot of specialised/limited players who require a 'perfect' partner for them to do their job. Insua needs Reira. Mascherano needs an Alonso. Lucas needs a miracle. Without them the performances of these players varies from average, right through to unacceptable

I remember people were suggesting we should drop Carragher and play Skrtel and Agger, for the principle reason being their flaws somehow compliment each other, completely ignoring the fact that Jamie is a better defender than both of them, and doesn't need anyone in particular alongside him because his talent alone is enough. I think the general point is we need more players like that, because we can disintegrate when the team isn't set up perfectly.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38771.msg1048466#msg1048466 date=1265193179]
I agree with a lot of that although I will say alonso solved a lot of those problems in that

a) he was always a passing option to the defenders, an easy out ball and once he received the ball more often then not he picked out someone high up the pitch.

b) he was always had the eye for an early pass and kept the ball ridiculously well meaning players on the wings could take more of a gamble in staying there because more often then not they would receive the ball.

c) he was a competent holding midfielder which gave the likes of masher and gerrard more licence to roam further up field without having to come back every second.

d) he kept play ticking over which meant the entire team gained confidence in passing the ball because we kept it more often.

e) he had the ability to slow the game down (who in the current sqaud has the ability to do this?) which meant once we took the lead he has the ability to take the sting out of the game so the likelihood of conceeding a late goal was reduced because the opposition weren't able to build up momentum.

so a big step in the right direction without making wholesale changes to the sqaud is find someone that can do what alonso did. piss of piece, all he did was pass the ball, right?
[/quote]


Alonso is almost irreplaceable so what needs to happen now I guess is that we have to change the way we play instead of trying to replace him with Lucas who is obviously a different kind of player.

Lucas can slow down the play, is okay with the tackle and is a good steady passer who is usually there to take the short pass. What he can't do is play the long ball up to the flanks all the time and he can't hang on to it for a ridiculously long time either. This means that the other mids just have to do more work I guess.

Really, though. This is the same as most other teams out there. We just have to learn to play a normal 2-man midfield that needs some held from the man in front (Gerrard).

I know few will agree but I think the 1st 11 we have can do well. It's more a failure of confidence / form / motivation / communication this season (and getting screwed by the squad depth of course)
 
Any fullback will play better when they have a winger in front of them, as opposed to another fullback, a striker, etc. There's nothing unique about Insua.

Any DM will play better when they have a ball playing CM next to them, as opposed to another DM, or a low level government functionary. There's nothing unique about Mascherano.

The issue isn't specialized players, it's the right balance of them in midfield, and the amount of players we have who can just do a job in a position, rather than their strengths lending a predictable shape to our side. Riera is a good but not great winger, but he is a winger, unlike Benayoun, Babel, Aurelio, or anyone else who has been shoved there this season. Insua has frailties in defense at times, but it doesn't help that with any of those people playing in front of him, our left side is useless in attack, and that'd be the case whoever we had at LB.

We don't have like for like replacements in the squad, even order of magnitudes worse like for like replacements, in key attacking positions.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=38771.msg1048511#msg1048511 date=1265197531]
So Brendan, do you think there's a formation that would allow Lucas, Insua et al to function better as a team? Or are you just saying our players aren't good enough?
[/quote]

Both. Our formation is less forgiving on our shit players, and more demanding on our great players, and when we slot in "squaddies" we suffer more than most, as this season has proven all too emphatically.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38771.msg1048519#msg1048519 date=1265198028]
The basic point is right.

We have a lot of specialised/limited players who require a 'perfect' partner for them to do their job. Insua needs Reira. Mascherano needs an Alonso. Lucas needs a miracle. Without them the performances of these players varies from average, right through to unacceptable

I remember people were suggesting we should drop Carragher and play Skrtel and Agger, for the principle reason being their flaws somehow compliment each other, completely ignoring the fact that Jamie is a better defender than both of them, and doesn't need anyone in particular alongside him because his talent alone is enough. I think the general point is we need more players like that, because we can disintegrate when the team isn't set up perfectly.
[/quote]

Hurray!

I like the bit in bold, especially.
 
[quote author=caparo link=topic=38771.msg1048534#msg1048534 date=1265198729]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38771.msg1048466#msg1048466 date=1265193179]
I agree with a lot of that although I will say alonso solved a lot of those problems in that

a) he was always a passing option to the defenders, an easy out ball and once he received the ball more often then not he picked out someone high up the pitch.

b) he was always had the eye for an early pass and kept the ball ridiculously well meaning players on the wings could take more of a gamble in staying there because more often then not they would receive the ball.

c) he was a competent holding midfielder which gave the likes of masher and gerrard more licence to roam further up field without having to come back every second.

d) he kept play ticking over which meant the entire team gained confidence in passing the ball because we kept it more often.

e) he had the ability to slow the game down (who in the current sqaud has the ability to do this?) which meant once we took the lead he has the ability to take the sting out of the game so the likelihood of conceeding a late goal was reduced because the opposition weren't able to build up momentum.

so a big step in the right direction without making wholesale changes to the sqaud is find someone that can do what alonso did. piss of piece, all he did was pass the ball, right?
[/quote]


Alonso is almost irreplaceable so what needs to happen now I guess is that we have to change the way we play instead of trying to replace him with Lucas who is obviously a different kind of player.

Lucas can slow down the play, is okay with the tackle and is a good steady passer who is usually there to take the short pass. What he can't do is play the long ball up to the flanks all the time and he can't hang on to it for a ridiculously long time either. This means that the other mids just have to do more work I guess.

Really, though. This is the same as most other teams out there. We just have to learn to play a normal 2-man midfield that needs some held from the man in front (Gerrard).

I know few will agree but I think the 1st 11 we have can do well. It's more a failure of confidence / form / motivation / communication this season (and getting screwed by the squad depth of course)


[/quote]

Lucas is a steady passer who makes the short pass. Mascherano plays the short pass and vascillates between quite good, and god awful with anything more ambitious. Gerrard has to help out sometimes...

You realize this is exactly what Brendan (and the world) is complaining about in midfield?

I watched Aquilani spraying passes to Bolton players, like that creepy retard Pob spitting all over the screen, but at Aquilani was attempting to do what every midfield player should be. Mascherano does the same, to widely varying effect, but still.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38771.msg1048542#msg1048542 date=1265199112]
So, does anyone think if we ask Uefa really, really nicely, they would let us play 14 players?
[/quote]

Yes, because that was my point wasn't it, you fucking mong
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38771.msg1048544#msg1048544 date=1265199185]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38771.msg1048542#msg1048542 date=1265199112]
So, does anyone think if we ask Uefa really, really nicely, they would let us play 14 players?
[/quote]

Yes, because that was my point wasn't it, you fucking mong
[/quote]

I have an idea, maybe we can change to a rugby union side and play 15 players? ;D
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38771.msg1048539#msg1048539 date=1265198951]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38771.msg1048519#msg1048519 date=1265198028]
The basic point is right.

We have a lot of specialised/limited players who require a 'perfect' partner for them to do their job. Insua needs Reira. Mascherano needs an Alonso. Lucas needs a miracle. Without them the performances of these players varies from average, right through to unacceptable

I remember people were suggesting we should drop Carragher and play Skrtel and Agger, for the principle reason being their flaws somehow compliment each other, completely ignoring the fact that Jamie is a better defender than both of them, and doesn't need anyone in particular alongside him because his talent alone is enough. I think the general point is we need more players like that, because we can disintegrate when the team isn't set up perfectly.
[/quote]

Hurray!

I like the bit in bold, especially.
[/quote]

In the main, I agree. Carra could strike up a partnership with anyone. But in truth, he was best with Sami alongside him and would be best with a similarly dominating aerial presence beside him. For all his strengths, Jamie just isn't very good in the air. Skrtel is decent in that respect and I think it worked for parts of last season, but his positioning and anticipation is nowhere near good enough and Carra can't be expected to babysit him for his entire career.

The Greek is ok as a stop-gap but I think that our defence going forward should consist of one of our current batch (Carra while he's still got it, Agger beyond) and one other in the Sami mould. Easier said than done, I know, but we can't afford to have such an exploitable weakness if we have any ambition to do well.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38771.msg1048537#msg1048537 date=1265198881]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=38771.msg1048511#msg1048511 date=1265197531]
So Brendan, do you think there's a formation that would allow Lucas, Insua et al to function better as a team? Or are you just saying our players aren't good enough?
[/quote]

Both. Our formation is less forgiving on our shit players, and more demanding on our great players, and when we slot in "squaddies" we suffer more than most, as this season has proven all too emphatically.
[/quote]

So what formation would you play?
 
its a consequence of Rafas '2 out of 3 aint bad' philosophy when signing players. Pretty much every position has a set of attributes that are key to being successful at the top level, Rafa has a bizarre tendency to sign players who are severly lacking in at least one of these attributes, wingers who cant dribble/cross, midfielders that cant pass, defenders that cant head the ball, strikers with no pace. Hence we often field teams that have a serious deficiency in skills required to play in their position and as a result we rely heavily on certain players to drag the others up to their level.

All teams rely on their better players nobody doubts that but in our case when you take a couple of players out the whole system/formation seems entirely redundant. How do you devise a formation that gets the best out of a midfield where nobody is capable of passing the ball accurately or beating a man?

The strange thing is that this sort of square peg round hole business seems to have started before Rafa, Gerrard could never be bothered to hold his position so he needed Didi to sit behind him and cover his headless running about and Owen couldnt really play with another striker and required Heskey to do all the leg work for him even in his most prolific era
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Stevesquash
  • Locked
  • Poll Poll
Midfield against The Arse
Replies
26
Views
595
LarryHagman
LarryHagman
bluebell
  • Locked
  • Poll Poll
Klopp vs Slot
Replies
14
Views
437
WheresMeTea
WheresMeTea
rurikbird
Forwards’ race
2 3 4 5
Replies
120
Views
3K
MomoWASright
MomoWASright
rurikbird
    • Like
Young players watch
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
154
Views
3K
Hyena
Hyena
Modo
  • Locked
It's a Harvey situation...
2
Replies
45
Views
1K
Squiggles
Squiggles
Back
Top Bottom