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because ryan couldn't be asked to do this weeks chalkboard

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spider-Neil

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I'll give my thoughts

the truth is I was a little disappointed at the team selection, lucas and kuyt recalled. Well, to be fair to rafa both were in the team when liverpool beat manu at home earlier in the game.
It was a shame rafa didn't go for the team that passed the ball so well the previous league match.
Babel and aqua missing out because you'd suspect rafa didn't truth the defensive side of their game where manu would be doing most of the attacks being the home team. As I said, disappointing but 'understandable'.

liverpool got off to a dream start, a through ball to gerrard who found kuyt, a inch perfect cross to torres who superebly arced his header away VDS and liverpool are in the lead. It was a real pity liverpool couldn't have held that lead longer as the longer manu would be behind the more they would start to panic unfortunately they were given a helping hand by a dubious penalty (was webb the ref who gave the dubious penalty to manu last season when spurs worked so hard to take the lead?)
anyway, a shocking header from insua right into the path of the on rushing valencia, valencia then makes a b line for the penalty box, masher starts to foul valencia outside the box but valencia's strength and dogged determination forces himself into the penalty box. penalty!
there are two ways you could take the incident;

a) freekick
the foul starts outside the penalty area, therefore that's where the foul should be punished

b) penalty
the ref plays advantage at first but has no alternative to finally punish the foul which is now inside the penalty box.

I actually thought the latter of the two. I had no complaints about the penalty, I also thought it was the right decision to leave masher on the pitch because jamie was definately the covering defender.
rooney stepped up to take the penalty, the sky research showing the vast majority of rooney's penalties going to rooney's right, pepe brilliant dives the right way obviously having watched rooney's methods unfortunately the ball drops in rooney's path and he cooly tucks the ball away. pepe defiantely deserved better.

from then on liverpool drop deeper and deeper, fergie obviously giving instructions to go at insua as often as possible. maxi simply didn't have the pace to cover insua and get forwards himself to either attack himself or add numbers to midfield. liverpool's passing becomes more and more erratic as gerrard and torres become more isolated. half time couldn't come fast enough.

my hope was at half time rafa would gamble and go for all three points fling on babel and aqua and really go for broke as liverpool are so far adrift of the people chancing forth (if games in hand are converted into points) but we continued in the same vein, determined to keep it as tight as possible making as difficult as possible for manu to play through us. the inevitable eventually came, and this time I had no complaints about insua's haplessnesss,

insua is faced down by flecther, neville the slowest fullback in the league then makes a decoy game (exactly what fullbacks are supposed to do and what our fullbacks has been doing precious little of) insua has to make a choice of staying with the ball or going with the runner, in the end he kinda does neither as he edges towards the runner, fletcher then whips in an inch perfect cross and we are behind for the first time in the match.
I really don't blame insua as if he has totally stayed with the ball carrier and fletcher released the ball to neville and neville crosses for park to finish then people would have said why didn't insua go with the runner. basically the fault was with the person tracking neville and for the CM not making any kind of tracking of park.

from there was only one team who was going to win the match. I really wished rafa has made his subs sooner and there is nothing in the rule books that say subs have to happen after 65mins or that they have to happen 1 at a time.
babel comes on and starts to run at the manu defense, this was a real oppertunity missed as someone with babel's pace would have really hurt neville who is about as slow as they come, also torres wasn't given enough of the ball to run at vidic who is patently shit scared of him.

I normally think it is a cop out to blame the ref but some of the decisons must of left the liverpool fans apoplectic with rage.

1. neville nearly beheads maxi - not even a free kick (not even a fucking free kick)
2. flecther nearly breaks kuyts leg and if he had properly connected he would have
3. and this was the worst, rooney makes the worst dive of the season, gets up raises his hand with a grin and smile in a mock 'okay, ya got me, I dived' and the cunt of a ref STILL gives the freekick (fucking unbelieveable!!)

but the blame of the defeat ultimately lies with us as we didn't do enough to even deserve a point but even then we had a glorious chance to nick a precious point as gerrard tees up torres only for the hotter than hot torres to fluff his lines and the yossi to head straight at the keeper. our chance come and gone.

things that disappointed me most

1. the team selection
rafa could have been a little braver especially given what happened on monday, okay it was 'only pompy' but reward good performances and peformers, that way you have people chomping at the bit to perform rather than apathy because they think they wont get selected regardless.

2. the captain
a truly poor showing from gerrard. he defiantely deserves slack because of the amount of times he has saved us but some leadership, encouragement and blood and fire would have made up for the miscontrolled touches and wayward passes

3. torres
sometime even though you are being kicked in the air, the best response is a goal, not petulence, nando is so much better when he is focused.

4. insua
well, nuff said.

5. kuyt
tracking back is admireable but sometime you have to gamble and attack and left the fullback exposed, no guts no glory after all manu had no qualms about going forwards and there is no way on this earth neville would be able to get back in time if we counter attacked but they took a gamble and got a goal. kuyt really has to remember that first and foremost he is an ATTACKING player not a defensive player but that was a quality cross so credit where credit is due.
 
The problem is our formation

The 3 and 1 are basically our attacking players, which basically means we have 4 out of 10 outfield players in an offensive capacity with 6 concentrating on us not. However, 2 of those 4 are Kuyt and Maxi who are particularly limited, either by pace, creativity or just general ability.

The obvious way to help redress the balance is the addition of attacking fullbacks. Obviously Johnson adds this dimension. However, Insua due to general shiteness and lack of confidence and ability to get back, does not. Therefore, we are unabalanced down the flanks. Add to the fact, the person who plays on the left of the 3 has to effectively babysit Insua due to aforementioned lack of ability, and you lose 1 of your 4 attacker threats as they're as much concerned with coming back as they are going forward. If we had Aurelio fit, we could address this.

Now, assuming we have our 4 'attackers' in the final third of the pitch, and by some miracle they've actually moved in to space to try and receive the ball, then the next problem is that we have to get the ball to them.

So if we are looking to our 2 'holding midfielders' as Mascherano and Lucas, neither have the vision or passing ability and range required to play incisive and early passes, particularly if said passes involve going forwards. This is why when Alonso was here, we were a far greater attacking threat. Surely Aquilani has to be played here to at least try and replace him.

Neither fullback, especially Insua is particularly adept at spraying passes around, and so that only leaves the centre backs. Ideally, at least one of the centre backs will bring it up the pitch and be able to find a pass, which conveniently, Agger does offer.

Also, and this is really just a bonus, Reina is probably one of our best passers too which helps.


The reason United are so successful is that play basic football - pass, get it wide, get players in the area, put good crosses in the box. Its basic percentage football. Provided you have players of sufficient ability to do those specifics well i.e. Valencia (Quick and good cross - and thats about it), Carrick (long range passing), Fullbacks (defend and get forward to support wingers) etc etc, then you can just let them get on with it.

Our tactics involve - get the ball to Gerrard or Torres and hope one of them does something amazing.
 
[quote author=Rafiagra link=topic=39480.msg1075804#msg1075804 date=1269430383]
The problem is our formation

The 3 and 1 are basically our attacking players, which basically means we have 4 out of 10 outfield players in an offensive capacity with 6 concentrating on us not. However, 2 of those 4 are Kuyt and Maxi who are particularly limited, either by pace, creativity or just general ability.

The obvious way to help redress the balance is the addition of attacking fullbacks. Obviously Johnson adds this dimension. However, Insua due to general shiteness and lack of confidence and ability to get back, does not. Therefore, we are unabalanced down the flanks. Add to the fact, the person who plays on the left of the 3 has to effectively babysit Insua due to aforementioned lack of ability, and you lose 1 of your 4 attacker threats as they're as much concerned with coming back as they are going forward. If we had Aurelio fit, we could address this.

Now, assuming we have our 4 'attackers' in the final third of the pitch, and by some miracle they've actually moved in to space to try and receive the ball, then the next problem is that we have to get the ball to them.

So if we are looking to our 2 'holding midfielders' as Mascherano and Lucas, neither have the vision or passing ability and range required to play incisive and early passes, particularly if said passes involve going forwards. This is why when Alonso was here, we were a far greater attacking threat. Surely Aquilani has to be played here to at least try and replace him.

Neither fullback, especially Insua is particularly adept at spraying passes around, and so that only leaves the centre backs. Ideally, at least one of the centre backs will bring it up the pitch and be able to find a pass, which conveniently, Agger does offer.

Also, and this is really just a bonus, Reina is probably one of our best passers too which helps.


The reason United are so successful is that play basic football - pass, get it wide, get players in the area, put good crosses in the box. Its basic percentage football. Provided you have players of sufficient ability to do those specifics well i.e. Valencia (Quick and good cross - and thats about it), Carrick (long range passing), Fullbacks (defend and get forward to support wingers) etc etc, then you can just let them get on with it.

Our tactics involve - get the ball to Gerrard or Torres and hope one of them does something amazing.




[/quote]

can't disagree with any of that. the solution (imho) is;

1. an attacking fullback on the left equally adapt as attacking as johnson, less will lessen the need to purchase a quality wide player who are;
a) a dying breed
b) fucking expensive

2. to play one CM midfielder who offers something going forwards be it from a forward or deep position. playing to out and out holding midfielders when there aren't enough talented attackers to pull up their (holding midfielder) attacking slack is daft.

3. introduce pace into the midfield
this would allow us to counter attacker and make us harder to contain
 
That's actually a great piece of analysis, Neil. Quite often your posts make me want to hammer nails into my eyeballs, but that was very good - and I can't disagree with any of it really.

Ryan, you have a rival...
 
Insua was ridiculously poor to allow Fletcher a free cross into the box. I bet Fletcher couldn't believe his luck.

Insua is shocking.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39480.msg1075814#msg1075814 date=1269432953]
That's actually a great piece of analysis, Neil. Quite often your posts make me want to hammer nails into my eyeballs, but that was very good - and I can't disagree with any of it really.

Ryan, you have a rival...
[/quote]

observation is easy, you are just saying what you see I think where loads of people disagree with me when I go beyond observation but when I do that all I'm doing is throwing up an opinion and I always try and back up that opinion of why I think we should do what I think we should do.

I have no problem with being wrong or people thinking I'm wrong what I don't like is when people offer up an opinion of the team by simply saying 'its shite' and don't at least ATTEMPT to offer up a solution or dig deeper 'WHY' its shite.
 
[quote author=Rafiagra link=topic=39480.msg1075804#msg1075804 date=1269430383]
Our tactics involve - get the ball to Gerrard or Torres and hope one of them does something amazing.
[/quote]

Yep.

This seems to be the thread where I can vent.. so here goes:

To surmise your post. The balance of the team is dreadful.

We've have a defender who can't defend at all, nor has the redeeming quality of being any good in attack.

A good defender (Carra) who after making a great interception gifts the ball back to the opposition because of a lack of options and technical abilty.

2 defensive midfielders who don't have much of a passing range, nor have the imagination or ability to get forward effectively.

2 slow wide men whom are absolutely useless when it comes to counterattacking a team (which we seem to try to do given how deep we play). What's more, one of them has minimal technical ability which you'd think was a pre-requisite for a midfielder. (Clearly not at Liverpool).

Upfront we have two of the very best in the world who feed off scraps but never recieve the ball (enough) in the right areas and are absolutely wasted. This also leads to them showing frustration and snatching at the few chances that do fall their way.

So how do we remedy the situation? Well, call me old fashioned, but i'd like to go back to the days when you trust your defenders to defend and attackers to attack.. and your midfield provide a balance of both. For me this would be benching Insua, brining in a top class FB in the Evra mould which means we'd be able to play a LW who didn't have to worry about tracking back so much (I really would have loved Cissokho from Lyon).

Then in midfield, I'd go with Babel on the left (he's raw, but he scores and has pace/abilty to be dangerous on the counter.. he's the sort of player i wouldn't mind 'carrying' because of his threat), then in the centre, it's simple - Mascher and Aqua. There's a balance of offence and defence there.. and if there's one thing I like about Aqua, it's his willingness to get into the box, especially after playing a ball out wide.

For the right, i'd bench Kuyt and buy a pacey right footed winger in the Valencia mould (who can play off the left too). I know Ashley Young plays predominantly for Villa on the left, but he's the sort of player i'd like and I think he could do an equally good job there. Upfront, we're already sorted. Gerrard and Torres, with Kuyt as back up. I'd probably look to get in a decent paced quality forward in to be a 2nd/3rd striker. People mention Bent but his value is too high to be a bench player. Someone like Doyle at Wolves or Carlton Cole at West Ham would suffice as they can play upfront on their own or as a pair.

So my team would look as such:

Reina

Johnson Carra Agger LB (Cissokho)

RW (Young) Mascher Aqua Babel

Gerrard

Torres

Looks too attacking doesn't it? Well, I think that's exactly what we need to beat half the dross we've lost/drawn to this/last year. Against your Uniteds' and Chelseas' you can possbily draft your Lucas' in and set up a little more reserved. But i'd keep the fast, pacey wingers in there as they will always provide threat on the counter.

If you compare that side above to United's Sunday:

VDS - Reina = Reina better

G.Nev - Johnson = Johnson, overall, better.

Ferdinand - Agger = Ferdinand better, but Agger no slouch.

Vidic - Carra = Vidic better, when not up against Torres, but Carra not far behind.

Evra - Cissokho = Evra slightly better.

Fletcher - Mascher = Draw. Mascher better at defending, Fletcher better at attacking.

Carrick - Aqua = Right now, Carrick proven better, but Aqua has ability to be equal if not better (certainly in an attacking sense.

Nani - Babel = Equal. Both mavericks who get a similar amount of goals and provide little defensive protection but an attacking threat as a redeeming quality.

Valencia - Young = Equal. I think if Young was a top 4 side, he'd be pretty much doing what Valencia is doing for United now => Providing plenty of assists doing the basics of a winger. Beating a man and getting in a good cross for a top forward to feed on.

Park - Gerrard = Gerrard better. Despite his poor return this year, he's still a top player who'd be doing more in a team that gave him the ball more.

Rooney - Torres = Equal. Whilst I think Torres is better at the things that you want from a forward - pace, finishing, heading ability etc. Rooney is better at the other things around that (passing, creativity, vision, etc).

I think THAT team, instilled with belief and few instructions would be up there vying for the title. Mind you, bringing those players in would cost at least 50m, but i'd look to at get 20-30m from selling some of deadwood.

P.s. I've compared us to United so much in this analysis because, well, they keep on winning the title... but also because I feel there are more similarities in our squad, in terms of type of player and set up, than our other rivals.
 
ibromurph, I really love to see that team but the lyon left back would be too expensive, MON wouldn't ever sell young and if he did we couldn't afford him and rafa would probably think the team would leave us too open. which is a shame.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39480.msg1075852#msg1075852 date=1269441133]
ibromurph, I really love to see that team but the lyon left back would be too expensive, MON wouldn't ever sell young and if he did we couldn't afford him and rafa would probably think the team would leave us too open. which is a shame.
[/quote]

Well, I don't think Rafa would be the manager for that team above as he lacks the balls to attack and win this league. Like i've always said, with Rafa here, we'll NEVER finish above a Fergie-managed team simply because their brand of football guarantees more points. 1 win and a loss is better than 2 draws.

As for transfer, well, I guess we need to be after the next Young.. and the next Cissokho.. we've missed out on quite a few good players over recent years. Perhaps a manager with a keener eye for talent and "qwality" would get us those type of players before they become superstars.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39480.msg1075865#msg1075865 date=1269442666]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39480.msg1075852#msg1075852 date=1269441133]
ibromurph, I really love to see that team but the lyon left back would be too expensive, MON wouldn't ever sell young and if he did we couldn't afford him and rafa would probably think the team would leave us too open. which is a shame.
[/quote]

Well, I don't think Rafa would be the manager for that team above as he lacks the balls to attack and win this league. Like i've always said, with Rafa here, we'll NEVER finish above a Fergie-managed team simply because their brand of football guarantees more points. 1 win and a loss is better than 2 draws.

As for transfer, well, I guess we need to be after the next Young.. and the next Cissokho.. we've missed out on quite a few good players over recent years. Perhaps a manager with a keener eye for talent and "qwality" would get us those type of players before they become superstars.
[/quote]

I know people frown at playing people out of position but I don't see why rafa can't give agger a go at left back.

a) he is left footed
b) he is defensively sound
c) he has good ability on the ball

he would be a nice counter balance to johnson like carra was a good counter balance to babbel. you play him there and martin at center back which will give you breathing room in regards to finding an actual left back. you can then pour your entire budget in a wide midfielder (left or right) and a striker.
 
I don't think there's much merit in comparing teams player for player.

They are better balanced, play a known, proven system, and have a complete confidence in both themselves and their objectives.

We are/have none of those things.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39480.msg1075869#msg1075869 date=1269443278]
I don't think there's much merit in comparing teams player for player.

They are better balanced, play a known, proven system, and have a complete confidence in both themselves and their objectives.

We are/have none of those things.
[/quote]

Yeah.. of course, you're right, although I do think it does allow us to eliminate the excuse that it's the quality of players that prevents us from playing a certain brand of football.

(which is a silly argument anyway given that Rafa plays many of his players through personal choice as opposed to lack of quality)
 
Good post that Neil. I've been travelling all week, and have barely looked at the net. Apologies to brendan and all my other fans for the lack of "chalkboard tactics".
 
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