Alonso on Benitez...
- Thread starter 6TimesaRed
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Status
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
How many people here would have missed the birth of their child for their job?
All this 'he's privileged' etc doesn't really stack up, you have to think about it within the context of his life, and the life of the average footballer, he isn't gonna think to himself 'I get paid exceptionally well at LFC, therefore this is reasonable', he gets paid the 'norm' for a player of his ability playing at that level.
How many people here would have missed the birth of their child for their job?
All this 'he's privileged' etc doesn't really stack up, you have to think about it within the context of his life, and the life of the average footballer, he isn't gonna think to himself 'I get paid exceptionally well at LFC, therefore this is reasonable', he gets paid the 'norm' for a player of his ability playing at that level.
S
Squiggles
Guest
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
Maybe she didn't want her stomach needlessly cut open?!
Maybe she didn't want her stomach needlessly cut open?!
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937365#msg937365 date=1251896353]
I don't get this.
Seriously, if Rafa hadn't tried to sell him last season, do people think he would have wanted to leave this summer?
NO. So why not acknowledge that it's not all big bad Xabi's fault, beloved Rafa cocked up. And like I said at the time, I wasn't falling for his public pleas for Xabi to stay for a second, I'd put my house on Rafa not once attempting to privately convince Alonso to stay. The public display was to appease the simple fans and gain the maximum transfer fee for Alonso.
[/quote]
I think the problem is way you posed the question and answer that Anita. Unless Xabi called you once a week and confessed all of his thoughts to you, there is no way you can answer that question with a definitive NO.
Xabi did make public comments about the new English tax system. How can you say with such authority that even if Rafa did not make an effort to sell him last summer, he would not have gone.
Rafa tried to take care of the clubs interest last summer. Xabi tried to take care of his interest this summer.
Let us face it, both of them tried to exploit the situation to their advantage. I was little bit disappointed with Xabi, when it happened. But I respect his decision. But I am not willing to concede that Xabi was this poor honest guy who has been exploited by the evil and devious Rafa. The fault lies with both of them.
Truth of the fact is that Rafa is working his balls off everyday to improve this club. Xabi is not. I will support Rafa from now on.
As for Rafa and the birth of kids issues, you do remember you are talking about a guy who stood on the touchline in Japan after his dad died. I am not saying whether what he did is right or wrong, I am just pointing out the level of commitment he has for this job.
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937365#msg937365 date=1251896353]
I don't get this.
Seriously, if Rafa hadn't tried to sell him last season, do people think he would have wanted to leave this summer?
NO. So why not acknowledge that it's not all big bad Xabi's fault, beloved Rafa cocked up. And like I said at the time, I wasn't falling for his public pleas for Xabi to stay for a second, I'd put my house on Rafa not once attempting to privately convince Alonso to stay. The public display was to appease the simple fans and gain the maximum transfer fee for Alonso.
[/quote]
I think the problem is way you posed the question and answer that Anita. Unless Xabi called you once a week and confessed all of his thoughts to you, there is no way you can answer that question with a definitive NO.
Xabi did make public comments about the new English tax system. How can you say with such authority that even if Rafa did not make an effort to sell him last summer, he would not have gone.
Rafa tried to take care of the clubs interest last summer. Xabi tried to take care of his interest this summer.
Let us face it, both of them tried to exploit the situation to their advantage. I was little bit disappointed with Xabi, when it happened. But I respect his decision. But I am not willing to concede that Xabi was this poor honest guy who has been exploited by the evil and devious Rafa. The fault lies with both of them.
Truth of the fact is that Rafa is working his balls off everyday to improve this club. Xabi is not. I will support Rafa from now on.
As for Rafa and the birth of kids issues, you do remember you are talking about a guy who stood on the touchline in Japan after his dad died. I am not saying whether what he did is right or wrong, I am just pointing out the level of commitment he has for this job.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
Jaysus, lads.
It wasn't "a game", it was an enormous, season defining, away leg against the Italian champions in the European Cup. Hardly a trifling matter...
Had it been a run-of-the-mill game, basically anything other than THAT flippin' match, I'm sure that rafa would have let him be there. Also, wasn't there a lot of "I'll be there, I'll not be there, I'll be there, I'll not be there..." from Xabi as Rafa tried to give him right up until the last minute to decided what he was doing?
I'm not saying that by becoming a pro footballer you must relinquish all normal life experiences... I'm saying that, occassionally, you'll be asked to make sacrifices that 'real' people typically won't. But, for me, the untold wealth and privilige that comes with the territory outweighs the potential for missing the odd family moment.
And before anybody asks, yes, I'd HAPPILY have missed the birth of Andie, if in doing so I was cementing a life of luxury for her (and for her children too), for every day that came after the one that I missed.
Jaysus, lads.
It wasn't "a game", it was an enormous, season defining, away leg against the Italian champions in the European Cup. Hardly a trifling matter...
Had it been a run-of-the-mill game, basically anything other than THAT flippin' match, I'm sure that rafa would have let him be there. Also, wasn't there a lot of "I'll be there, I'll not be there, I'll be there, I'll not be there..." from Xabi as Rafa tried to give him right up until the last minute to decided what he was doing?
I'm not saying that by becoming a pro footballer you must relinquish all normal life experiences... I'm saying that, occassionally, you'll be asked to make sacrifices that 'real' people typically won't. But, for me, the untold wealth and privilige that comes with the territory outweighs the potential for missing the odd family moment.
And before anybody asks, yes, I'd HAPPILY have missed the birth of Andie, if in doing so I was cementing a life of luxury for her (and for her children too), for every day that came after the one that I missed.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937550#msg937550 date=1251907678]
How many people here would have missed the birth of their child for their job?
All this 'he's privileged' etc doesn't really stack up, you have to think about it within the context of his life, and the life of the average footballer, he isn't gonna think to himself 'I get paid exceptionally well at LFC, therefore this is reasonable', he gets paid the 'norm' for a player of his ability playing at that level.
[/quote]
My dad did and IMO, he is the best dad in the world. I would too. For exactly the same reasons Whaddapie mentioned in the earlier post.
Agree with you on the wages point.
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937550#msg937550 date=1251907678]
How many people here would have missed the birth of their child for their job?
All this 'he's privileged' etc doesn't really stack up, you have to think about it within the context of his life, and the life of the average footballer, he isn't gonna think to himself 'I get paid exceptionally well at LFC, therefore this is reasonable', he gets paid the 'norm' for a player of his ability playing at that level.
[/quote]
My dad did and IMO, he is the best dad in the world. I would too. For exactly the same reasons Whaddapie mentioned in the earlier post.
Agree with you on the wages point.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937532#msg937532 date=1251906505]
I don't think footballers sign up as footballers *knowing* one of the things they have to sacrifice is witnessing the birth of their children.
[/quote]
I doubt anyone in any job does. It would, however, be insensitive, in high pressure situations from which the birth has forced them to absent themselves at the last minute, if they didn't understand that those left behind might be a tad tetchy in the heat of the moment. These moral slap-downs don't really have much precision.
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937532#msg937532 date=1251906505]
I don't think footballers sign up as footballers *knowing* one of the things they have to sacrifice is witnessing the birth of their children.
[/quote]
I doubt anyone in any job does. It would, however, be insensitive, in high pressure situations from which the birth has forced them to absent themselves at the last minute, if they didn't understand that those left behind might be a tad tetchy in the heat of the moment. These moral slap-downs don't really have much precision.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
I don't think Xabi should have missed the birth of his (1st) child. We had a comfortable 2:0 lead and I think he made the tight call there. I personally wouldn't have missed the birth of my child.
That said, I'm not buying that story of Xabi leaving as a result of Rafa trying to sell him the previous summer. Xabi's was far from brilliant in the two preceding seasons, and eventually he gave us a brilliant season last season, after this attempt to sell him. He probably needed that kick in the ass. Xabi left because of various possible reasons - the glamour of playing for Real Madrid, missing Spain, better money, and maybe somewhere down that list Rafa's attempt to sell him.
Bottom line is that as mentioned by peekay - Rafa is working his balls off everyday to improve this club. Xabi is not. He left us when we needed him, and at a crucial time for our title challenge. That's very disapointing for me.
I know who's side I'm on. And to be honest I hope that Barcelona win La Liga again, and that Real fail in the CL again.
I don't think Xabi should have missed the birth of his (1st) child. We had a comfortable 2:0 lead and I think he made the tight call there. I personally wouldn't have missed the birth of my child.
That said, I'm not buying that story of Xabi leaving as a result of Rafa trying to sell him the previous summer. Xabi's was far from brilliant in the two preceding seasons, and eventually he gave us a brilliant season last season, after this attempt to sell him. He probably needed that kick in the ass. Xabi left because of various possible reasons - the glamour of playing for Real Madrid, missing Spain, better money, and maybe somewhere down that list Rafa's attempt to sell him.
Bottom line is that as mentioned by peekay - Rafa is working his balls off everyday to improve this club. Xabi is not. He left us when we needed him, and at a crucial time for our title challenge. That's very disapointing for me.
I know who's side I'm on. And to be honest I hope that Barcelona win La Liga again, and that Real fail in the CL again.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937550#msg937550 date=1251907678]
How many people here would have missed the birth of their child for their job?
All this 'he's privileged' etc doesn't really stack up, you have to think about it within the context of his life, and the life of the average footballer, he isn't gonna think to himself 'I get paid exceptionally well at LFC, therefore this is reasonable', he gets paid the 'norm' for a player of his ability playing at that level.
[/quote]
I bet they don't fly every member of HM forces home.
As I said it's only a fairly recent thing this hand holding at the birth anyway.
regards
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937550#msg937550 date=1251907678]
How many people here would have missed the birth of their child for their job?
All this 'he's privileged' etc doesn't really stack up, you have to think about it within the context of his life, and the life of the average footballer, he isn't gonna think to himself 'I get paid exceptionally well at LFC, therefore this is reasonable', he gets paid the 'norm' for a player of his ability playing at that level.
[/quote]
I bet they don't fly every member of HM forces home.
As I said it's only a fairly recent thing this hand holding at the birth anyway.
regards
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=Asim link=topic=35598.msg937565#msg937565 date=1251908724]
Are you serious?
It's not like he was gonna be poor all of a sudden.
[/quote]
Me?
Missing one game wouldn't have made him poor, no. But chosing the profession that he did made him wealthy beyond the dreams of normal people, and with that comes the odd sacrifice that we typically aren't asked to make.
Nor are pro footballers most of the time either, by the way. The game in question was an enormous one, that couldn't be judged as 'normal'.
[quote author=Asim link=topic=35598.msg937565#msg937565 date=1251908724]
Are you serious?
It's not like he was gonna be poor all of a sudden.
[/quote]
Me?
Missing one game wouldn't have made him poor, no. But chosing the profession that he did made him wealthy beyond the dreams of normal people, and with that comes the odd sacrifice that we typically aren't asked to make.
Nor are pro footballers most of the time either, by the way. The game in question was an enormous one, that couldn't be judged as 'normal'.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
Seriously...i can't believe there is even a debate on this. You can't choose when you have a new born baby or when your kin dies.
The more money i have, the more important these moments in life become.
If i was scraping the barrel, i would do what is required to keep my family afloat.
If i'm well off there are things that pertain to my family that i wouldn't want to miss for anything. It is called marginal utility.
That is just the way it is.
Forcing a player to miss something like the birth of his first child is torture in a way. They can't be forced to follow slave rules just because the club pays them enormous wages.
Seriously...i can't believe there is even a debate on this. You can't choose when you have a new born baby or when your kin dies.
The more money i have, the more important these moments in life become.
If i was scraping the barrel, i would do what is required to keep my family afloat.
If i'm well off there are things that pertain to my family that i wouldn't want to miss for anything. It is called marginal utility.
That is just the way it is.
Forcing a player to miss something like the birth of his first child is torture in a way. They can't be forced to follow slave rules just because the club pays them enormous wages.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg937576#msg937576 date=1251910561]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937550#msg937550 date=1251907678]
How many people here would have missed the birth of their child for their job?
All this 'he's privileged' etc doesn't really stack up, you have to think about it within the context of his life, and the life of the average footballer, he isn't gonna think to himself 'I get paid exceptionally well at LFC, therefore this is reasonable', he gets paid the 'norm' for a player of his ability playing at that level.
[/quote]
I bet they don't fly every member of HM forces home.
As I said it's only a fairly recent thing this hand holding at the birth anyway.
regards
[/quote]
You know as well as anyone that playing football for a club and fighting for your country are entirely different things.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg937576#msg937576 date=1251910561]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937550#msg937550 date=1251907678]
How many people here would have missed the birth of their child for their job?
All this 'he's privileged' etc doesn't really stack up, you have to think about it within the context of his life, and the life of the average footballer, he isn't gonna think to himself 'I get paid exceptionally well at LFC, therefore this is reasonable', he gets paid the 'norm' for a player of his ability playing at that level.
[/quote]
I bet they don't fly every member of HM forces home.
As I said it's only a fairly recent thing this hand holding at the birth anyway.
regards
[/quote]
You know as well as anyone that playing football for a club and fighting for your country are entirely different things.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35598.msg937559#msg937559 date=1251908080]
Jaysus, lads.
It wasn't "a game", it was an enormous, season defining, away leg against the Italian champions in the European Cup. Hardly a trifling matter...
Had it been a run-of-the-mill game, basically anything other than THAT flippin' match, I'm sure that rafa would have let him be there. Also, wasn't there a lot of "I'll be there, I'll not be there, I'll be there, I'll not be there..." from Xabi as Rafa tried to give him right up until the last minute to decided what he was doing?
I'm not saying that by becoming a pro footballer you must relinquish all normal life experiences... I'm saying that, occassionally, you'll be asked to make sacrifices that 'real' people typically won't. But, for me, the untold wealth and privilige that comes with the territory outweighs the potential for missing the odd family moment.
And before anybody asks, yes, I'd HAPPILY have missed the birth of Andie, if in doing so I was cementing a life of luxury for her (and for her children too), for every day that came after the one that I missed.
[/quote]
If his dad died on the day, would you still stick the same reasoning?
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35598.msg937559#msg937559 date=1251908080]
Jaysus, lads.
It wasn't "a game", it was an enormous, season defining, away leg against the Italian champions in the European Cup. Hardly a trifling matter...
Had it been a run-of-the-mill game, basically anything other than THAT flippin' match, I'm sure that rafa would have let him be there. Also, wasn't there a lot of "I'll be there, I'll not be there, I'll be there, I'll not be there..." from Xabi as Rafa tried to give him right up until the last minute to decided what he was doing?
I'm not saying that by becoming a pro footballer you must relinquish all normal life experiences... I'm saying that, occassionally, you'll be asked to make sacrifices that 'real' people typically won't. But, for me, the untold wealth and privilige that comes with the territory outweighs the potential for missing the odd family moment.
And before anybody asks, yes, I'd HAPPILY have missed the birth of Andie, if in doing so I was cementing a life of luxury for her (and for her children too), for every day that came after the one that I missed.
[/quote]
If his dad died on the day, would you still stick the same reasoning?
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
I don't really buy into this whole the argument that players earn x amount of money so they should be expected to operate like robots. A player of Xabi's level will make his money anywhere, so it's a wholly irrelevant point to any argument. It's not like Liverpool are doing him some sort of massive favour by paying him 90K a week - if a club wants him to play for them, that's what they have to pay and if they don't want to pay it, another club will. End of story. I don't see Carra accepting a 20K a week contract because he supposedly loves us so much.
The guy was a top professional on the pitch and off it, at least, I don't remember hearing anyone with a bad word to say about him, so what's the problem?
He decided to leave the club because he got pissed off with Rafa along with one or two reasons? And? So what? He didn't sulk on the pitch, he didn't let his team-mates or the fans down, did he? He made the decision to leave in the summer - that's his prerogative. He doesn't owe us anything. If Juve had've stumped up the cash last summer and he cried about not wanting to leave, would the club have listened? No. So, now that the roles are reversed, it's the same thing. A professional relationship was ended in a professional manner.
I don't really buy into this whole the argument that players earn x amount of money so they should be expected to operate like robots. A player of Xabi's level will make his money anywhere, so it's a wholly irrelevant point to any argument. It's not like Liverpool are doing him some sort of massive favour by paying him 90K a week - if a club wants him to play for them, that's what they have to pay and if they don't want to pay it, another club will. End of story. I don't see Carra accepting a 20K a week contract because he supposedly loves us so much.
The guy was a top professional on the pitch and off it, at least, I don't remember hearing anyone with a bad word to say about him, so what's the problem?
He decided to leave the club because he got pissed off with Rafa along with one or two reasons? And? So what? He didn't sulk on the pitch, he didn't let his team-mates or the fans down, did he? He made the decision to leave in the summer - that's his prerogative. He doesn't owe us anything. If Juve had've stumped up the cash last summer and he cried about not wanting to leave, would the club have listened? No. So, now that the roles are reversed, it's the same thing. A professional relationship was ended in a professional manner.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937532#msg937532 date=1251906505]
I don't think footballers sign up as footballers *knowing* one of the things they have to sacrifice is witnessing the birth of their children.
[/quote]
my dad was out watching the 1973 cup final Leeds v Sunderland the day i was born.
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937532#msg937532 date=1251906505]
I don't think footballers sign up as footballers *knowing* one of the things they have to sacrifice is witnessing the birth of their children.
[/quote]
my dad was out watching the 1973 cup final Leeds v Sunderland the day i was born.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=madmax link=topic=35598.msg937593#msg937593 date=1251913003]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg937576#msg937576 date=1251910561]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937550#msg937550 date=1251907678]
How many people here would have missed the birth of their child for their job?
All this 'he's privileged' etc doesn't really stack up, you have to think about it within the context of his life, and the life of the average footballer, he isn't gonna think to himself 'I get paid exceptionally well at LFC, therefore this is reasonable', he gets paid the 'norm' for a player of his ability playing at that level.
[/quote]
I bet they don't fly every member of HM forces home.
As I said it's only a fairly recent thing this hand holding at the birth anyway.
regards
[/quote]
You know as well as anyone that playing football for a club and fighting for your country are entirely different things.
[/quote]
Exactly.
Playing for LFC is far more important.
[quote author=madmax link=topic=35598.msg937593#msg937593 date=1251913003]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg937576#msg937576 date=1251910561]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937550#msg937550 date=1251907678]
How many people here would have missed the birth of their child for their job?
All this 'he's privileged' etc doesn't really stack up, you have to think about it within the context of his life, and the life of the average footballer, he isn't gonna think to himself 'I get paid exceptionally well at LFC, therefore this is reasonable', he gets paid the 'norm' for a player of his ability playing at that level.
[/quote]
I bet they don't fly every member of HM forces home.
As I said it's only a fairly recent thing this hand holding at the birth anyway.
regards
[/quote]
You know as well as anyone that playing football for a club and fighting for your country are entirely different things.
[/quote]
Exactly.
Playing for LFC is far more important.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35598.msg937600#msg937600 date=1251914748]
I don't really buy into this whole the argument that players earn x amount of money so they should be expected to operate like robots. A player of Xabi's level will make his money anywhere, so it's a wholly irrelevant point to any argument. It's not like Liverpool are doing him some sort of massive favour by paying him 90K a week - if a club wants him to play for them, that's what they have to pay and if they don't want to pay it, another club will. End of story. I don't see Carra accepting a 20K a week contract because he supposedly loves us so much.
The guy was a top professional on the pitch and off it, at least, I don't remember hearing anyone with a bad word to say about him, so what's the problem?
He decided to leave the club because he got pissed off with Rafa along with one or two reasons? And? So what? He didn't sulk on the pitch, he didn't let his team-mates or the fans down, did he? He made the decision to leave in the summer - that's his prerogative. He doesn't owe us anything. If Juve had've stumped up the cash last summer and he cried about not wanting to leave, would the club have listened? No. So, now that the roles are reversed, it's the same thing. A professional relationship was ended in a professional manner.
[/quote]
This thread should be locked after this post.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35598.msg937600#msg937600 date=1251914748]
I don't really buy into this whole the argument that players earn x amount of money so they should be expected to operate like robots. A player of Xabi's level will make his money anywhere, so it's a wholly irrelevant point to any argument. It's not like Liverpool are doing him some sort of massive favour by paying him 90K a week - if a club wants him to play for them, that's what they have to pay and if they don't want to pay it, another club will. End of story. I don't see Carra accepting a 20K a week contract because he supposedly loves us so much.
The guy was a top professional on the pitch and off it, at least, I don't remember hearing anyone with a bad word to say about him, so what's the problem?
He decided to leave the club because he got pissed off with Rafa along with one or two reasons? And? So what? He didn't sulk on the pitch, he didn't let his team-mates or the fans down, did he? He made the decision to leave in the summer - that's his prerogative. He doesn't owe us anything. If Juve had've stumped up the cash last summer and he cried about not wanting to leave, would the club have listened? No. So, now that the roles are reversed, it's the same thing. A professional relationship was ended in a professional manner.
[/quote]
This thread should be locked after this post.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35598.msg937600#msg937600 date=1251914748]
I don't really buy into this whole the argument that players earn x amount of money so they should be expected to operate like robots. A player of Xabi's level will make his money anywhere, so it's a wholly irrelevant point to any argument. It's not like Liverpool are doing him some sort of massive favour by paying him 90K a week - if a club wants him to play for them, that's what they have to pay and if they don't want to pay it, another club will. End of story. I don't see Carra accepting a 20K a week contract because he supposedly loves us so much.
The guy was a top professional on the pitch and off it, at least, I don't remember hearing anyone with a bad word to say about him, so what's the problem?
He decided to leave the club because he got pissed off with Rafa along with one or two reasons? And? So what? He didn't sulk on the pitch, he didn't let his team-mates or the fans down, did he? He made the decision to leave in the summer - that's his prerogative. He doesn't owe us anything. If Juve had've stumped up the cash last summer and he cried about not wanting to leave, would the club have listened? No. So, now that the roles are reversed, it's the same thing. A professional relationship was ended in a professional manner.
[/quote]
"Robots" doesn't come into it. Professional footballers are expected to act like professionals. Requiring Alonso to travel to that game was a demand which the club and Rafa were fully entitled to make, and which any club would have made in the same circs. It's not as if his missus was ill. Nor is the level of pay at all "irrelevant". The more someone pays me to work for them, the more they're entitled to expect in terms of both performance and loyalty.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35598.msg937600#msg937600 date=1251914748]
I don't really buy into this whole the argument that players earn x amount of money so they should be expected to operate like robots. A player of Xabi's level will make his money anywhere, so it's a wholly irrelevant point to any argument. It's not like Liverpool are doing him some sort of massive favour by paying him 90K a week - if a club wants him to play for them, that's what they have to pay and if they don't want to pay it, another club will. End of story. I don't see Carra accepting a 20K a week contract because he supposedly loves us so much.
The guy was a top professional on the pitch and off it, at least, I don't remember hearing anyone with a bad word to say about him, so what's the problem?
He decided to leave the club because he got pissed off with Rafa along with one or two reasons? And? So what? He didn't sulk on the pitch, he didn't let his team-mates or the fans down, did he? He made the decision to leave in the summer - that's his prerogative. He doesn't owe us anything. If Juve had've stumped up the cash last summer and he cried about not wanting to leave, would the club have listened? No. So, now that the roles are reversed, it's the same thing. A professional relationship was ended in a professional manner.
[/quote]
"Robots" doesn't come into it. Professional footballers are expected to act like professionals. Requiring Alonso to travel to that game was a demand which the club and Rafa were fully entitled to make, and which any club would have made in the same circs. It's not as if his missus was ill. Nor is the level of pay at all "irrelevant". The more someone pays me to work for them, the more they're entitled to expect in terms of both performance and loyalty.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
It is irrelevant and I really don't see what the point of discussing whether he should've travelled. The fact that Alonso decided to mention the birth of child proved that it did ultimately factor into his departure from Liverpool, but we don't know how exactly and to what extent. What are we going to get from speculating on and nitpicking at the details now?
The bottom line is that Alonso, like any other employee in any other line of business, had a choice to make and he made his. You can disagree with it but I really don't understand people saying he had no right to make it. It's not like he spat his dummy out in public, shirked his workload on the pitch and let everyone down because he didn't like the consequences. He took it on the chin quietly and made his decision to leave.
As for loyalty, there is no loyalty in football. The clubs show players ZERO loyalty when it suits them, so (and I say this every time) it's hypocritical in the extreme to expect it in return.
It is irrelevant and I really don't see what the point of discussing whether he should've travelled. The fact that Alonso decided to mention the birth of child proved that it did ultimately factor into his departure from Liverpool, but we don't know how exactly and to what extent. What are we going to get from speculating on and nitpicking at the details now?
The bottom line is that Alonso, like any other employee in any other line of business, had a choice to make and he made his. You can disagree with it but I really don't understand people saying he had no right to make it. It's not like he spat his dummy out in public, shirked his workload on the pitch and let everyone down because he didn't like the consequences. He took it on the chin quietly and made his decision to leave.
As for loyalty, there is no loyalty in football. The clubs show players ZERO loyalty when it suits them, so (and I say this every time) it's hypocritical in the extreme to expect it in return.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937610#msg937610 date=1251917805]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35598.msg937600#msg937600 date=1251914748]
I don't really buy into this whole the argument that players earn x amount of money so they should be expected to operate like robots. A player of Xabi's level will make his money anywhere, so it's a wholly irrelevant point to any argument. It's not like Liverpool are doing him some sort of massive favour by paying him 90K a week - if a club wants him to play for them, that's what they have to pay and if they don't want to pay it, another club will. End of story. I don't see Carra accepting a 20K a week contract because he supposedly loves us so much.
The guy was a top professional on the pitch and off it, at least, I don't remember hearing anyone with a bad word to say about him, so what's the problem?
He decided to leave the club because he got pissed off with Rafa along with one or two reasons? And? So what? He didn't sulk on the pitch, he didn't let his team-mates or the fans down, did he? He made the decision to leave in the summer - that's his prerogative. He doesn't owe us anything. If Juve had've stumped up the cash last summer and he cried about not wanting to leave, would the club have listened? No. So, now that the roles are reversed, it's the same thing. A professional relationship was ended in a professional manner.
[/quote]
"Robots" doesn't come into it. Professional footballers are expected to act like professionals. Requiring Alonso to travel to that game was a demand which the club and Rafa were fully entitled to make, and which any club would have made in the same circs. It's not as if his missus was ill. Nor is the level of pay at all "irrelevant". The more someone pays me to work for them, the more they're entitled to expect in terms of both performance and loyalty.
[/quote]
He is being paid for his ability and not to make sacrifices.
Like any other human being, he is entitled to ask for leave of absence. The club also has its right to refuse, but when the reason is as legitimate as this, it is bound to stick in the memory.
I can understand him being peeved about it, if he did miss his child's birth because the club asked. But he didn't, so i'm not sure why he is harping on about it still either.
So in my opinion he was right to miss the game. But both Rafa and Xabi are wrong to carry this gripe for as long as they have.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937610#msg937610 date=1251917805]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35598.msg937600#msg937600 date=1251914748]
I don't really buy into this whole the argument that players earn x amount of money so they should be expected to operate like robots. A player of Xabi's level will make his money anywhere, so it's a wholly irrelevant point to any argument. It's not like Liverpool are doing him some sort of massive favour by paying him 90K a week - if a club wants him to play for them, that's what they have to pay and if they don't want to pay it, another club will. End of story. I don't see Carra accepting a 20K a week contract because he supposedly loves us so much.
The guy was a top professional on the pitch and off it, at least, I don't remember hearing anyone with a bad word to say about him, so what's the problem?
He decided to leave the club because he got pissed off with Rafa along with one or two reasons? And? So what? He didn't sulk on the pitch, he didn't let his team-mates or the fans down, did he? He made the decision to leave in the summer - that's his prerogative. He doesn't owe us anything. If Juve had've stumped up the cash last summer and he cried about not wanting to leave, would the club have listened? No. So, now that the roles are reversed, it's the same thing. A professional relationship was ended in a professional manner.
[/quote]
"Robots" doesn't come into it. Professional footballers are expected to act like professionals. Requiring Alonso to travel to that game was a demand which the club and Rafa were fully entitled to make, and which any club would have made in the same circs. It's not as if his missus was ill. Nor is the level of pay at all "irrelevant". The more someone pays me to work for them, the more they're entitled to expect in terms of both performance and loyalty.
[/quote]
He is being paid for his ability and not to make sacrifices.
Like any other human being, he is entitled to ask for leave of absence. The club also has its right to refuse, but when the reason is as legitimate as this, it is bound to stick in the memory.
I can understand him being peeved about it, if he did miss his child's birth because the club asked. But he didn't, so i'm not sure why he is harping on about it still either.
So in my opinion he was right to miss the game. But both Rafa and Xabi are wrong to carry this gripe for as long as they have.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
There's no evidence that I've seen or heard that Rafa carried it on beyond that summer. On the contrary, had he done so, Alonso wouldn't have played such an important part in the season just gone.
And sorry, but sacrifices are part of any job. Millions of people vastly less well paid than Alonso make them every day.
There's no evidence that I've seen or heard that Rafa carried it on beyond that summer. On the contrary, had he done so, Alonso wouldn't have played such an important part in the season just gone.
And sorry, but sacrifices are part of any job. Millions of people vastly less well paid than Alonso make them every day.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35598.msg937615#msg937615 date=1251918513]
It is irrelevant and I really don't see what the point of discussing whether he should've travelled. The fact that Alonso decided to mention the birth of child proved that it did ultimately factor into his departure from Liverpool, but we don't know how exactly and to what extent. What are we going to get from speculating on and nitpicking at the details now?
The bottom line is that Alonso, like any other employee in any other line of business, had a choice to make and he made his. You can disagree with it but I really don't understand people saying he had no right to make it. It's not like he spat his dummy out in public, shirked his workload on the pitch and let everyone down because he didn't like the consequences. He took it on the chin quietly and made his decision to leave.
As for loyalty, there is no loyalty in football. The clubs show players ZERO loyalty when it suits them, so (and I say this every time) it's hypocritical in the extreme to expect it in return.
[/quote]
I actually agree there's no point in discussing whether Alonso should have travelled. He had a clear instruction from his manager to do so, and he won't have been the first player to find himself in such a situation. The point's come up because some on here have tried to claim he did nothing wrong by choosing to ignore that instruction. That's debatable at the VERY least.
"No loyalty in football" is the vaguest of catchphrases. There may be little personal loyalty (though I don't agree there's none at all - witness one-club players like Carra, or the way we treated Markus Babbel when he first fell ill) but professional loyalty is simply a matter of meeting one's obligations towards one's employer. When a person chooses to break those, as Alonso did, there are going to be consequences, and so there should be. Clubs can't be that cavalier in return when a player has a contract. Winston Bogarde will tell you all about that.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35598.msg937615#msg937615 date=1251918513]
It is irrelevant and I really don't see what the point of discussing whether he should've travelled. The fact that Alonso decided to mention the birth of child proved that it did ultimately factor into his departure from Liverpool, but we don't know how exactly and to what extent. What are we going to get from speculating on and nitpicking at the details now?
The bottom line is that Alonso, like any other employee in any other line of business, had a choice to make and he made his. You can disagree with it but I really don't understand people saying he had no right to make it. It's not like he spat his dummy out in public, shirked his workload on the pitch and let everyone down because he didn't like the consequences. He took it on the chin quietly and made his decision to leave.
As for loyalty, there is no loyalty in football. The clubs show players ZERO loyalty when it suits them, so (and I say this every time) it's hypocritical in the extreme to expect it in return.
[/quote]
I actually agree there's no point in discussing whether Alonso should have travelled. He had a clear instruction from his manager to do so, and he won't have been the first player to find himself in such a situation. The point's come up because some on here have tried to claim he did nothing wrong by choosing to ignore that instruction. That's debatable at the VERY least.
"No loyalty in football" is the vaguest of catchphrases. There may be little personal loyalty (though I don't agree there's none at all - witness one-club players like Carra, or the way we treated Markus Babbel when he first fell ill) but professional loyalty is simply a matter of meeting one's obligations towards one's employer. When a person chooses to break those, as Alonso did, there are going to be consequences, and so there should be. Clubs can't be that cavalier in return when a player has a contract. Winston Bogarde will tell you all about that.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937632#msg937632 date=1251920073]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35598.msg937615#msg937615 date=1251918513]
It is irrelevant and I really don't see what the point of discussing whether he should've travelled. The fact that Alonso decided to mention the birth of child proved that it did ultimately factor into his departure from Liverpool, but we don't know how exactly and to what extent. What are we going to get from speculating on and nitpicking at the details now?
The bottom line is that Alonso, like any other employee in any other line of business, had a choice to make and he made his. You can disagree with it but I really don't understand people saying he had no right to make it. It's not like he spat his dummy out in public, shirked his workload on the pitch and let everyone down because he didn't like the consequences. He took it on the chin quietly and made his decision to leave.
As for loyalty, there is no loyalty in football. The clubs show players ZERO loyalty when it suits them, so (and I say this every time) it's hypocritical in the extreme to expect it in return.
[/quote]
I actually agree there's no point in discussing whether Alonso should have travelled. He had a clear instruction from his manager to do so, and he won't have been the first player to find himself in such a situation. The point's come up because some on here have tried to claim he did nothing wrong by choosing to ignore that instruction. That's debatable at the VERY least.
"No loyalty in football" is the vaguest of catchphrases. There may be little personal loyalty (though I don't agree there's none at all - witness one-club players like Carra, or the way we treated Markus Babbel when he first fell ill) but professional loyalty is simply a matter of meeting one's obligations towards one's employer. When a person chooses to break those, as Alonso did, there are going to be consequences, and so there should be. Clubs can't be that cavalier in return when a player has a contract. Winston Bogarde will tell you all about that.
[/quote]
So if he did break and if he was wrong to do so, why did the club not fine him or reprimand him?
Because they couldn't. It was not because we were cavalier about it. It was because the club would have lost face in the press and with the players.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937632#msg937632 date=1251920073]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=35598.msg937615#msg937615 date=1251918513]
It is irrelevant and I really don't see what the point of discussing whether he should've travelled. The fact that Alonso decided to mention the birth of child proved that it did ultimately factor into his departure from Liverpool, but we don't know how exactly and to what extent. What are we going to get from speculating on and nitpicking at the details now?
The bottom line is that Alonso, like any other employee in any other line of business, had a choice to make and he made his. You can disagree with it but I really don't understand people saying he had no right to make it. It's not like he spat his dummy out in public, shirked his workload on the pitch and let everyone down because he didn't like the consequences. He took it on the chin quietly and made his decision to leave.
As for loyalty, there is no loyalty in football. The clubs show players ZERO loyalty when it suits them, so (and I say this every time) it's hypocritical in the extreme to expect it in return.
[/quote]
I actually agree there's no point in discussing whether Alonso should have travelled. He had a clear instruction from his manager to do so, and he won't have been the first player to find himself in such a situation. The point's come up because some on here have tried to claim he did nothing wrong by choosing to ignore that instruction. That's debatable at the VERY least.
"No loyalty in football" is the vaguest of catchphrases. There may be little personal loyalty (though I don't agree there's none at all - witness one-club players like Carra, or the way we treated Markus Babbel when he first fell ill) but professional loyalty is simply a matter of meeting one's obligations towards one's employer. When a person chooses to break those, as Alonso did, there are going to be consequences, and so there should be. Clubs can't be that cavalier in return when a player has a contract. Winston Bogarde will tell you all about that.
[/quote]
So if he did break and if he was wrong to do so, why did the club not fine him or reprimand him?
Because they couldn't. It was not because we were cavalier about it. It was because the club would have lost face in the press and with the players.
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937632#msg937632 date=1251920073]
I actually agree there's no point in discussing whether Alonso should have travelled. He had a clear instruction from his manager to do so, and he won't have been the first player to find himself in such a situation. The point's come up because some on here have tried to claim he did nothing wrong by choosing to ignore that instruction. That's debatable at the VERY least.
"No loyalty in football" is the vaguest of catchphrases. There may be little personal loyalty (though I don't agree there's none at all - witness one-club players like Carra, or the way we treated Markus Babbel when he first fell ill) but professional loyalty is simply a matter of meeting one's obligations towards one's employer. When a person chooses to break those, as Alonso did, there are going to be consequences, and so there should be. Clubs can't be that cavalier in return when a player has a contract. Winston Bogarde will tell you all about that.
[/quote]
Well, with regards to your first point, I think it just boils down to the person. If there was a particular event of significance to me that conflicted with my work obligations, I'd weigh things up and make my choice. Do I think Alonso had the right to make his choice? Yes, I absolutely do and I don't think it's in any way debatable either. Who are you or anyone else to tell him that he shouldn't be there for the birth of his first child? It is his right to make that choice and he doesn't owe anyone anything just because he's getting a salary.
I won't now try and suggest that Alonso was some poor little boy scout but I simply refuse to accept these fucking absurd arguments that suggest that he somehow betrayed the club by deciding to leave. He felt the consequences of his decisions (or form, depending on which argument people feel like using on the day) that summer and this summer, well, the club suffered the consequences of it's decisions.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937632#msg937632 date=1251920073]
I actually agree there's no point in discussing whether Alonso should have travelled. He had a clear instruction from his manager to do so, and he won't have been the first player to find himself in such a situation. The point's come up because some on here have tried to claim he did nothing wrong by choosing to ignore that instruction. That's debatable at the VERY least.
"No loyalty in football" is the vaguest of catchphrases. There may be little personal loyalty (though I don't agree there's none at all - witness one-club players like Carra, or the way we treated Markus Babbel when he first fell ill) but professional loyalty is simply a matter of meeting one's obligations towards one's employer. When a person chooses to break those, as Alonso did, there are going to be consequences, and so there should be. Clubs can't be that cavalier in return when a player has a contract. Winston Bogarde will tell you all about that.
[/quote]
Well, with regards to your first point, I think it just boils down to the person. If there was a particular event of significance to me that conflicted with my work obligations, I'd weigh things up and make my choice. Do I think Alonso had the right to make his choice? Yes, I absolutely do and I don't think it's in any way debatable either. Who are you or anyone else to tell him that he shouldn't be there for the birth of his first child? It is his right to make that choice and he doesn't owe anyone anything just because he's getting a salary.
I won't now try and suggest that Alonso was some poor little boy scout but I simply refuse to accept these fucking absurd arguments that suggest that he somehow betrayed the club by deciding to leave. He felt the consequences of his decisions (or form, depending on which argument people feel like using on the day) that summer and this summer, well, the club suffered the consequences of it's decisions.
- Status
