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Alonso on Benitez...

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Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

Alonso had a right to make whatever decisions he saw fit to make. What he didn't have any right to do was then to get miffed at the consequences. "Doesn't owe anyone anything just because he's getting a salary"? Contract law says different, and quite rightly so.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

1 - Let's hope Aquilani's missus never decides to give birth from August to May. In Italy.

2 - So we were on "the cusp" of winning the title when Xabi dumped us? That "cusp" was reached in no small part because of HIS performances last season. Oh, the irony.

3 - I had never doubted Rafa until this rigmarole. I doubt him now, I think he really fucked up on this one.

4 - But we're stuck with him for now so it's onwards and upwards.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937659#msg937659 date=1251922716]
Alonso had a right to make whatever decisions he saw fit to make. What he didn't have any right to do was then to get miffed at the consequences. "Doesn't owe anyone anything just because he's getting a salary"? Contract law says different, and quite rightly so.
[/quote]

As said already, we don't know how or to what extent that decision ultimately influenced the decisions that were made by all parties involved, but I'll play along in assuming that it was the root of all that was to follow.

I'm glad that you agree that he had a right to make a choice. I also think that by agreeing to that, it's a little bit contradictory to then bring up contract law. We've done this thread a million times before and every time, someone decides to brig up the issue of the contract and every time, it has to be once again explained that contracts are in the main a way for clubs to cover their asses financially if for whatever reason the player is going to be sold. You know this to be true. I know this to be true. Honestly, just why... *sigh*
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937623#msg937623 date=1251919279]
There's no evidence that I've seen or heard that Rafa carried it on beyond that summer. On the contrary, had he done so, Alonso wouldn't have played such an important part in the season just gone.

And sorry, but sacrifices are part of any job. Millions of people vastly less well paid than Alonso make them every day.
[/quote]

Sacrifices are part of any job, but not all sacrifices are the same. It's a question of where you draw that line. The pay you get has got nothing to do with sacrifices. No where in a footballer's contract are they going to have clauses related to sacrifice he needs to make. However, you'll find things like goals, clean sheets and everything else that relates to ability mentioned.

The evidence was in action. He was dropped immediately after and There was little doubt that Rafa wanted him sold in the summer that followed. You could say that was just down to performance. But he earmarked Barry as a replacement and not some great central midfielder, so i'd like to believe there was more to his decision on selling Alonso. But no one can prove this either way...so there is no point debating it.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

Some of the stuff in previous pages has been real infants' school ethics: 'If nothing much mattered, what would you do and would you feel at all guilty about it?' Put someone in a high pressure situation when many jobs were at stake, you're a key participant and you just leave at the last minute...Is that really so clear cut. Not the decision, but the readiness to present those left behind as bastards if they're at all peed off...? During a season, when - as so many make clear on here - the buck stops with the manager, a key player leaves the manager's plans in chaos with his 'I'm in, I'm out, er, I might be in again' messages... Why on earth would you expect him to be happy? He's got children of his own, for chrissakes. He knows what it's like. But he's the one who has to get the team winning. He was there when his own father died. Even you Alonso girly fans, don't demonise the other man for putting the club first.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=madmax link=topic=35598.msg937593#msg937593 date=1251913003]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg937576#msg937576 date=1251910561]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937550#msg937550 date=1251907678]
How many people here would have missed the birth of their child for their job?

All this 'he's privileged' etc doesn't really stack up, you have to think about it within the context of his life, and the life of the average footballer, he isn't gonna think to himself 'I get paid exceptionally well at LFC, therefore this is reasonable', he gets paid the 'norm' for a player of his ability playing at that level.
[/quote]

I bet they don't fly every member of HM forces home.
As I said it's only a fairly recent thing this hand holding at the birth anyway.

regards
[/quote]

You know as well as anyone that playing football for a club and fighting for your country are entirely different things.
[/quote]

No they are not they are both professions that require ultimate dedication, the only thing is one pays average and the other pays obscene.

Not all the armed forces are involved in combat at any one time either, so the fighting for your country thing is a little dramatic.

regards
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=madmax link=topic=35598.msg937692#msg937692 date=1251925141]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937623#msg937623 date=1251919279]
There's no evidence that I've seen or heard that Rafa carried it on beyond that summer. On the contrary, had he done so, Alonso wouldn't have played such an important part in the season just gone.

And sorry, but sacrifices are part of any job. Millions of people vastly less well paid than Alonso make them every day.
[/quote]

Sacrifices are part of any job, but not all sacrifices are the same. It's a question of where you draw that line. The pay you get has got nothing to do with sacrifices. No where in a footballer's contract are they going to have clauses related to sacrifice he needs to make. However, you'll find things like goals, clean sheets and everything else that relates to ability mentioned.

The evidence was in action. He was dropped immediately after and There was little doubt that Rafa wanted him sold in the summer that followed. You could say that was just down to performance. But he earmarked Barry as a replacement and not some great central midfielder, so i'd like to believe there was more to his decision on selling Alonso. But no one can prove this either way...so there is no point debating it.
[/quote]

Of course it does...

"Derek, your salary is $50,000. You'll be a nobody when you work here. And you may have to miss the birth of your child."

"Eh, f$#! off"

Vs.

"Derek, your salary is $1.5 million and you'll be worshiped by millions. And you may have to miss the birth of your child."

"Eh, the fact that my salary will allow her to live comfortably FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE if I do miss that one day outweighs the potential of missing it. Ok."
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35598.msg937716#msg937716 date=1251927691]
[quote author=madmax link=topic=35598.msg937692#msg937692 date=1251925141]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937623#msg937623 date=1251919279]
There's no evidence that I've seen or heard that Rafa carried it on beyond that summer. On the contrary, had he done so, Alonso wouldn't have played such an important part in the season just gone.

And sorry, but sacrifices are part of any job. Millions of people vastly less well paid than Alonso make them every day.
[/quote]

Sacrifices are part of any job, but not all sacrifices are the same. It's a question of where you draw that line. The pay you get has got nothing to do with sacrifices. No where in a footballer's contract are they going to have clauses related to sacrifice he needs to make. However, you'll find things like goals, clean sheets and everything else that relates to ability mentioned.

The evidence was in action. He was dropped immediately after and There was little doubt that Rafa wanted him sold in the summer that followed. You could say that was just down to performance. But he earmarked Barry as a replacement and not some great central midfielder, so i'd like to believe there was more to his decision on selling Alonso. But no one can prove this either way...so there is no point debating it.
[/quote]

Of course it does...

"Derek, your salary is $50,000. You'll be a nobody when you work here. And you may have to miss the birth of your child."

"Eh, f$#! off"

Vs.

"Derek, your salary is $1.5 million and you'll be worshiped by millions. And you may have to miss the birth of your child."

"Eh, the fact that my salary will allow her to live comfortably FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE if I do miss that one day outweighs the potential of missing it. Ok."
[/quote]

Much to logical for the sentimentalists on here old lad

regards
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35598.msg937716#msg937716 date=1251927691]
Of course it does...

"Derek, your salary is $50,000. You'll be a nobody when you work here. And you may have to miss the birth of your child."

"Eh, f$#! off"

Vs.

"Derek, your salary is $1.5 million and you'll be worshiped by millions. And you may have to miss the birth of your child."

"Eh, the fact that my salary will allow her to live comfortably FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE if I do miss that one day outweighs the potential of missing it. Ok."
[/quote]

You're looking at it from your own perspective and that's where you are going wrong.

These players are being paid what they're worth and a big contract isn't some gift from the gods that they have to jump through hoops for. They've done the hard work already to get to where they are. What people either refuse to understand or are rather bitter about is that the extravagant salary is a given.

Alonso is going to get paid those kind of sums wherever he goes and that is why bringing money into the equation is stupid.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=keniget link=topic=35598.msg937736#msg937736 date=1251929999]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35598.msg937716#msg937716 date=1251927691]
Of course it does...

"Derek, your salary is $50,000. You'll be a nobody when you work here. And you may have to miss the birth of your child."

"Eh, f$#! off"

Vs.

"Derek, your salary is $1.5 million and you'll be worshiped by millions. And you may have to miss the birth of your child."

"Eh, the fact that my salary will allow her to live comfortably FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE if I do miss that one day outweighs the potential of missing it. Ok."
[/quote]

You're looking at it from your own perspective and that's where you are going wrong.

These players are being paid what they're worth and a big contract isn't some gift from the gods that they have to jump through hoops for. They've done the hard work already to get to where they are. What people either refuse to understand or are rather bitter about is that the extravagant salary is a given.

Alonso is going to get paid those kind of sums wherever he goes and that is why bringing money into the equation is stupid.
[/quote]

There are two basic things that I disagree with you about, Keni...

1. I think what people refuse to understand or are too smitten with the individual to accept is that, no matter how much anybody wants to refute it, there ARE different expectations / responsibilities when it comes to different professions. And in top fligh, professional football, it's a given that, upon occassion, and usually rarely, a player may be asked to sacrifice an event that us mere mortals don't. That IS the reality of the situation. A certain level of personal sacrifice is require in most jobs, and it normally increases as both the profile and the salary of the position held do likewise.

2. YOu say I shouldn't look at it from my own perspective..? I am from the real world, discussing this matter with other real world people. The fact that we're discussing one of the chosen, privileged few, who would command ungodly salaries no matter where they ply their trade, doesn't mean that we should be blinded to the fact that with that ridiculous salary and privilege comes the odd inconvenience... And saying that because he'd be a multi-millionaire no matter who he played for is doing just that. He's happy to accept all the trappings and glories of the stardom that his talent has afforded him. He should also accept that for approx 15 years of his life, he might also have to miss out on the odd event that he'd rather not miss.

The world's presidents and prime ministers don't necessarily get to be everywhere they'd like to be, all the time, do they? Nor, as previously pointed out, do the armed forces. Similarly to footballers, these people have chosen to enter their particular fields, and readily accept that things may not always go according to plan. It's comes with the territory they've decided to work in... And while I'm not comparing the jobs in any way, they are similar in that they are based in 'industries' that at times ask for a little more personal sacrifice than more typical careers do.

Anybody who is not prepared to accept the terms of their own employment should choose a different career. Simple.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

Alonso was trying to be sold when he had been fairly average for the most part of 2 years.

He had the odd magical game like Juve away in the CL when he came back from injury however on the whole he hadn't stayed the level he showed in his first 5 months here.

Then he had his best season last year and we cashed in on him at his highest value. He wanted to go and we got top dollar.

The only mistakes made were not replacing him with someone who could come in from the start of the season.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=35598.msg937749#msg937749 date=1251934463]
I wonder if he'd of felt the same if it was a Champions league final?
[/quote]

I hope he would have, Rafa.

Quite frankly, I would expect ALL players to be available for selection in the biggest games of the season, regardless of personal situation, except for the serious illness or passing of a loved one - Those occurences do take precedence, and I would expect the club to respect them. But the happy events, not so much... I mean, you can always celebrate the next day, right?
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

Typical SCM.

The whole crux of Xabi's career and subsequent departure has been boiled down to the fact that his missus had a baby, and that is the most important factor in discussing Xabi Alonso henceforth.

Two camps:
1 - I agree he shouldn't have left the squad = You're pro Rafa
2 - He has every right to witness the birth of his child = You're pro Alonso

And that's it, so let's argue the fucking toss (to the nth bastarding degree) over the rights and wrongs of this infamous birth. The whole debate is a fucking shambles.

Here's a question; if Xabi was single, had no children, gone through his Liverpool career in exactly the same manner (and for the sake of argument let's say season 1 great, season 2 & 3 shit, season 4 great), and found himself this summer with Real Madrid calling. Would he have left?
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35598.msg937755#msg937755 date=1251937200]
Typical SCM.

The whole crux of Xabi's career and subsequent departure has been boiled down to the fact that his missus had a baby, and that is the most important factor in discussing Xabi Alonso henceforth.

Two camps:
1 - I agree he shouldn't have left the squad = You're pro Rafa
2 - He has every right to witness the birth of his child = You're pro Alonso

And that's it, so let's argue the fucking toss (to the nth bastarding degree) over the rights and wrongs of this infamous birth. The whole debate is a fucking shambles.

Here's a question; if Xabi was single, had no children, gone through his Liverpool career in exactly the same manner (and for the sake of argument let's say season 1 great, season 2 & 3 shit, season 4 great), and found himself this summer with Real Madrid calling. Would he have left?
[/quote]

I think every other aspect about the Xabi debate had been exhausted in that other god awful marathon of a thread.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35598.msg937755#msg937755 date=1251937200]
Typical SCM.

The whole crux of Xabi's career and subsequent departure has been boiled down to the fact that his missus had a baby, and that is the most important factor in discussing Xabi Alonso henceforth.

Two camps:
1 - I agree he shouldn't have left the squad = You're pro Rafa
2 - He has every right to witness the birth of his child = You're pro Alonso

And that's it, so let's argue the fucking toss (to the nth bastarding degree) over the rights and wrongs of this infamous birth. The whole debate is a fucking shambles.

Here's a question; if Xabi was single, had no children, gone through his Liverpool career in exactly the same manner (and for the sake of argument let's say season 1 great, season 2 & 3 shit, season 4 great), and found himself this summer with Real Madrid calling. Would he have left?
[/quote]

Typical Ryan.

Sweeping generalization...

We're not discussing the entirety of Xabi's career. We're discussing THIS PARTICULAR matter. Hence, it's dominating the discussion. I'm neither pro-Xabi nor pro-Rafa. Nor are many of the people involved in this debate.

If the whole thing is a shambles, feel free to bugger off out of it, rather than lower yourself to become involved, eh? I mean, seriously... Why did you bother even posting that, other than to let us all know how much better than all of us you are?

And to answer your question, the man himself suggests that he would have left, due to Rafa's attempts to sell him last summer, didn't he?
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35598.msg937757#msg937757 date=1251937802]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35598.msg937755#msg937755 date=1251937200]
Typical SCM.

The whole crux of Xabi's career and subsequent departure has been boiled down to the fact that his missus had a baby, and that is the most important factor in discussing Xabi Alonso henceforth.

Two camps:
1 - I agree he shouldn't have left the squad = You're pro Rafa
2 - He has every right to witness the birth of his child = You're pro Alonso

And that's it, so let's argue the fucking toss (to the nth bastarding degree) over the rights and wrongs of this infamous birth. The whole debate is a fucking shambles.

Here's a question; if Xabi was single, had no children, gone through his Liverpool career in exactly the same manner (and for the sake of argument let's say season 1 great, season 2 & 3 shit, season 4 great), and found himself this summer with Real Madrid calling. Would he have left?
[/quote]

Typical Ryan.

Sweeping generalization...

We're not discussing the entirety of Xabi's career. We're discussing THIS PARTICULAR matter. Hence, it's dominating the discussion. I'm neither pro-Xabi nor pro-Rafa. Nor are many of the people involved in this debate.

If the whole thing is a shambles, feel free to bugger off out of it, rather than lower yourself to become involved, eh? I mean, seriously... Why did you bother even posting that, other than to let us all know how much better than all of us you are?

And to answer your question, the man himself suggests that he would have left, due to Rafa's attempts to sell him last summer, didn't he?
[/quote]

Yes, but why are you "discussing THIS PARTICULAR matter"? Because everyone has boiled the argument down to it being the sole factor to Alonso's career-ending with us that's why.

Woods for the trees.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

No they haven't.

Xabi himself said that last summer was the beginning of the end. Not this.

Though this certainly appears to have signalled a breakdown in their relationship...
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

I still have a huge amount of respect for Alonso.. True proffesional.

The same can be said about Rafa the majority of the time.

sometimes things dont work out. Ah well.. good luck to Alonso and we got a huge bunch of cash.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

Anybody who is not prepared to accept the terms of their own employment should choose a different career. Simple.
Click to expand...

OR................ he can just go play for another top club and earn even more money.

What you're saying is not applicable to footballers. Or indeed anyone.

For the sake of one incident, do you choose another career or do you just find another job?
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

It seems unlikely that the birth of a child would derail a professional relationship. It's not as if it's a surprise event, is it? (there's normally a lengthy period of notice). I think the two of them would've discussed matters beforehand.

Wouldn't it just have been that he saw the opportunity to play for his nation's biggest club?
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=35598.msg937804#msg937804 date=1251960040]
It seems unlikely that the birth of a child would derail a professional relationship. It's not as if it's a surprise event, is it? (there's normally a lengthy period of notice). I think the two of them would've discussed matters beforehand.

Wouldn't it just have been that he saw the opportunity to play for his nation's biggest club?


[/quote]

No no, Rafa is a cunt. Get with the trend.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg937285#msg937285 date=1251891322]
[quote author=GOD_23 link=topic=35598.msg937220#msg937220 date=1251887550]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg936987#msg936987 date=1251848233]
Its saying what we all knew, well, most of us with half a brain. The love was lost, and the dice were cast when Xabi refused to travel when his wife was due, Rafa never forgave him and would off-load him ASAP. Xabi was miffed by that and would leave sooner rather than later on his terms.
I think it is six of one and half a dozen of the other. In my opinion, Xabi should have travelled, Rafa should not be such a control freak, and looked at the bigger picture.
To add the concluding bit.............
Rafa cried crocodile tears about Xabi going, he just wanted as much money as possible for him. It blew up in Rafa's face when G&T clung on to the proceeds though.

regards
[/quote]

I don't know Vlad. I think the birth of your child is good enough reason to not go to a game. Carra said in his book he missed the birth of his first child and basically said it was possibly his biggest regret.
[/quote]

That's one of the downsides of being a footballing millionaire and your family being financially secure forever.
I am sure if any of us, Carra included, had the choice of being there at the birth of our kids, or seeing them in clover for the rest of their lives, I know which one I would take, here is a clue-the first one would be very selfish.

Anyway this having to be there at the birth and holding the wife's hand, is a relatively new "modern man" phenomenon anyways.

regards
[/quote]

I was a man ahead of my time 🙂

(my daughter's 21 y.o now).
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35598.msg937200#msg937200 date=1251886350]

I also think Benitez could have kept him had he done enough but lacked the necessary skills to do so. He's not a man manager like Houllier was, and I see it as his failure to keep him. Sometimes a manager has to swallow his pride, logic too, for the good of the team. Critics of this can point to the public press statement but it clearly was a hollow gesture in Xabi's ears. As I said in the massive Alonso thread, a public press statement rings hollow if you're working relationship has been stretched for years. It doesn't suddenly change anything and put Benitez in the right.
[/quote]

It seems many fans think that is the case, however have we ever heard an ex-player come out against him ? Not even Keane. If Rafa decides you are not right for the team then he is very pragmatic, however to say he is not a good man manager seems a statement belied by the attitude and comments of the players, past & present, themselves.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=35598.msg937824#msg937824 date=1251964924]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg937285#msg937285 date=1251891322]
[quote author=GOD_23 link=topic=35598.msg937220#msg937220 date=1251887550]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg936987#msg936987 date=1251848233]
Its saying what we all knew, well, most of us with half a brain. The love was lost, and the dice were cast when Xabi refused to travel when his wife was due, Rafa never forgave him and would off-load him ASAP. Xabi was miffed by that and would leave sooner rather than later on his terms.
I think it is six of one and half a dozen of the other. In my opinion, Xabi should have travelled, Rafa should not be such a control freak, and looked at the bigger picture.
To add the concluding bit.............
Rafa cried crocodile tears about Xabi going, he just wanted as much money as possible for him. It blew up in Rafa's face when G&T clung on to the proceeds though.

regards
[/quote]

I don't know Vlad. I think the birth of your child is good enough reason to not go to a game. Carra said in his book he missed the birth of his first child and basically said it was possibly his biggest regret.
[/quote]

That's one of the downsides of being a footballing millionaire and your family being financially secure forever.
I am sure if any of us, Carra included, had the choice of being there at the birth of our kids, or seeing them in clover for the rest of their lives, I know which one I would take, here is a clue-the first one would be very selfish.

Anyway this having to be there at the birth and holding the wife's hand, is a relatively new "modern man" phenomenon anyways.

regards
[/quote]

I was a man ahead of my time 🙂

(my daughter's 21 y.o now).
[/quote]

My eldest lad is 25 and I was there too. I bet a decade or two before that the fathers being in on the birth was the exception to the rule though.

regards
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=StevieM link=topic=35598.msg937338#msg937338 date=1251895377]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=35598.msg937304#msg937304 date=1251892988]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=35598.msg937297#msg937297 date=1251892013]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=35598.msg937290#msg937290 date=1251891505]
Can't wait to see what happens at Real once he has a loss of form.
[/quote]

We buy him back at half the price and he admits he never should have left.
[/quote]

He'll have to crawl back over broken glass from Madrid, flagellating himself with the LFC stationary gift set as he does so. Then, and only then, I'll take him back as a bench option.
[/quote]

Hey.. some people would have taken Owen back.. we'd welcome Alonso back easily.

Particularly if it includede a swap deal involving Lucas plus cash.

All we have to do is make Lucas a marketeers dream.
[/quote]

He's Brazilian ! What more do you need ?!
 
It's like hearing that a Cabinet minister has resigned on 'a matter of principle' a year after the incident. We all see through that kind of tosh. Alonso's 'argument' is similarly self-serving and hypocritical, and deserves to be treated with the same degree of contempt.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=35598.msg937409#msg937409 date=1251897770]
I think Xabi wanted to leave I´m not sure that rafa wanted him to otherwise we might well have sorted out our transfers differently.

Xabi would very probably have been tempted in any case ... Real are sadly in a different league to everyone else at the minute.
[/quote]

Nail ... Head.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg937827#msg937827 date=1251965309]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=35598.msg937824#msg937824 date=1251964924]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg937285#msg937285 date=1251891322]
[quote author=GOD_23 link=topic=35598.msg937220#msg937220 date=1251887550]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35598.msg936987#msg936987 date=1251848233]
Its saying what we all knew, well, most of us with half a brain. The love was lost, and the dice were cast when Xabi refused to travel when his wife was due, Rafa never forgave him and would off-load him ASAP. Xabi was miffed by that and would leave sooner rather than later on his terms.
I think it is six of one and half a dozen of the other. In my opinion, Xabi should have travelled, Rafa should not be such a control freak, and looked at the bigger picture.
To add the concluding bit.............
Rafa cried crocodile tears about Xabi going, he just wanted as much money as possible for him. It blew up in Rafa's face when G&T clung on to the proceeds though.

regards
[/quote]

I don't know Vlad. I think the birth of your child is good enough reason to not go to a game. Carra said in his book he missed the birth of his first child and basically said it was possibly his biggest regret.
[/quote]

That's one of the downsides of being a footballing millionaire and your family being financially secure forever.
I am sure if any of us, Carra included, had the choice of being there at the birth of our kids, or seeing them in clover for the rest of their lives, I know which one I would take, here is a clue-the first one would be very selfish.

Anyway this having to be there at the birth and holding the wife's hand, is a relatively new "modern man" phenomenon anyways.

regards
[/quote]

I was a man ahead of my time 🙂

(my daughter's 21 y.o now).
[/quote]

My eldest lad is 25 and I was there too. I bet a decade or two before that the fathers being in on the birth was the exception to the rule though.

regards
[/quote]

I think it pretty well still was when ours were born Vlad. Though more and more were flocking to their wives' sides.

It is a conundrum because it was one of the highlights of my life .... however there was a solution as Shanks would have told him. Bad forward planning.
 
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