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Alonso on Benitez...

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Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Roopy link=topic=35598.msg937345#msg937345 date=1251895544]
I have no problems with a player wanting to leave.

If he doesn't want to be at the club, then leave.

But to do so within 2 weeks of the season opener was disgusting.
[/quote]

To be fair, I think Alonso's intentions were pretty clear much earlier on in the summer.

He would have left sooner if Real had paid what we were wanting sooner.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

I don't get this.

Seriously, if Rafa hadn't tried to sell him last season, do people think he would have wanted to leave this summer?

NO. So why not acknowledge that it's not all big bad Xabi's fault, beloved Rafa cocked up. And like I said at the time, I wasn't falling for his public pleas for Xabi to stay for a second, I'd put my house on Rafa not once attempting to privately convince Alonso to stay. The public display was to appease the simple fans and gain the maximum transfer fee for Alonso.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937365#msg937365 date=1251896353]
I don't get this.

Seriously, if Rafa hadn't tried to sell him last season, do people think he would have wanted to leave this summer?

NO. So why not acknowledge that it's not all big bad Xabi's fault, beloved Rafa cocked up. And like I said at the time, I wasn't falling for his public pleas for Xabi to stay for a second, I'd put my house on Rafa not once attempting to privately convince Alonso to stay. The public display was to appease the simple fans and gain the maximum transfer fee for Alonso.
[/quote]

I'll tell you exactly why not, Anita - because it's utter rubbish.  Rafa was not only entitled but obliged to try and sell him after two highly average seasons AND a lack of professionalism, when he refused a clear instruction to travel, which would and should be a disciplinary offence at any club under any manager.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Any manager who isn't going to allow a member of their team to witness the birth of their own child is wrong, IMO. That was not a justifiable or defendable action.

I'm not even going to humour the other bit.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937380#msg937380 date=1251896706]
BLAH BLAH BLAH

Any manager who isn't going to allow a member of their team to witness the birth of their own child is wrong, IMO. That was not a justifiable or defendable action.

I'm not even going to humour the other bit.
[/quote]

So why ask the question if you're not interested in a rational, logical answer?
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

I will pay you ten great British Sterling for that dead horse you are flogging.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937391#msg937391 date=1251896969]
Here's another spade, Anita, keep right on digging.
[/quote]

Thanks, I will continue to dig out the truth until it's clear for all to see.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937380#msg937380 date=1251896706]
BLAH BLAH BLAH

Any manager who isn't going to allow a member of their team to witness the birth of their own child is wrong, IMO. That was not a justifiable or defendable action.

I'm not even going to humour the other bit.
[/quote]

THere's a player at a top AFL club (Western Bulldogs I think) who was in the papers here the other day because his wife is going in to have the baby induced this week so that he is available and focused to play in the finals series.

Not condoning it, just stating it.

On another point, let's be honest here... why did Alonso's form improve so markedly last season?

Was it because he was going to be flogged off to whatever team met Liverpool's valuation?

Ultimattely, all Alonso's good form last season brought.... was his ability to pick the team he wanted to go to.

Ironic that we were going to replace him with Gareth Barry...
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937384#msg937384 date=1251896893]
I responded to the bit that I thought was of note.
[/quote]

You asked a question, got a perfectly reasonable answer and 'BLAH BLAH BLAH'd it, 'cos you didn't like what he had to say...

Just because you don't want to hear it doesn't render it invalid.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

I think Xabi wanted to leave I´m not sure that rafa wanted him to otherwise we might well have sorted out our transfers differently.

Xabi would very probably have been tempted in any case ... Real are sadly in a different league to everyone else at the minute.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937365#msg937365 date=1251896353]
I don't get this.

Seriously, if Rafa hadn't tried to sell him last season, do people think he would have wanted to leave this summer?

NO. So why not acknowledge that it's not all big bad Xabi's fault, beloved Rafa cocked up. And like I said at the time, I wasn't falling for his public pleas for Xabi to stay for a second, I'd put my house on Rafa not once attempting to privately convince Alonso to stay. The public display was to appease the simple fans and gain the maximum transfer fee for Alonso.
[/quote]

If Rafa hadn't tried to sell him, we probably would have been left with a player who in one match would still deliver his wonderful trademark passes but in the next would be squeezed out of the game with ease by your average PL midfield player.

We also would be left with a player that nobody would have wanted even for half the price we eventually sold him for. We'd still be sitting here saying that he's much better than Carrick despite Carrick's form being much much better.

Rafa had good football reasons to sell Xabi back then. You may not agree with them but you should be able to understand them.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=StevieM link=topic=35598.msg937401#msg937401 date=1251897330]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937380#msg937380 date=1251896706]
BLAH BLAH BLAH

Any manager who isn't going to allow a member of their team to witness the birth of their own child is wrong, IMO. That was not a justifiable or defendable action.

I'm not even going to humour the other bit.
[/quote]

THere's a player at a top AFL club (Western Bulldogs I think) who was in the papers here the other day because his wife is going in to have the baby induced this week so that he is available and focused to play in the finals series.

Not condoning it, just stating it.

On another point, let's be honest here... why did Alonso's form improve so markedly last season?

Was it because he was going to be flogged off to whatever team met Liverpool's valuation?

Ultimattely, all Alonso's good form last season brought.... was his ability to pick the team he wanted to go to.

Ironic that we were going to replace him with Gareth Barry...
[/quote]

StevieM, my point is, I can't understand how people can separate what happened last summer with Alonso's eventual departure. How can people say one had nothing to do with the other?

I take your point about his form improving, and am not doubting it. But that's not really the point in question. People seem to think Alonso should have just forgotten about what happened last summer; I don't think that's a realistic thing to ask of a person.

Furthermore, we don't know about the conversations that went on (or didn't, as the case maybe) behind closed doors. Rafa himself mentioned that Alonso's agent spoke to him in March to try to establish what Alonso's position at the club was. So even at that stage in the season, Alonso wasn't sure where he stood, perhaps suggesting Rafa hadn't moved to reassure him of his place at the club after his form had turned. Rafa's claims of he was 'surprised' by this are the kind of things that infuriate me and make me doubt how straight forward he's been about the affair. How it could surprise him when he's just tried to sell him, naturally a player is going to be uncertain about his position.

Rafa grossly mishandled the Alonso situation, not only last summer, but he had a season to recover it. To convince Alonso to stay, I don't think he did, that bit is just my opinion, and people don't have to agree with it. But to say that Alonso leaving this summer had nothing to do with what happened last summer is ludicrous, because that is fact.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=35598.msg937409#msg937409 date=1251897770]
I think Xabi wanted to leave I´m not sure that rafa wanted him to otherwise we might well have sorted out our transfers differently.

Xabi would very probably have been tempted in any case ... Real are sadly in a different league to everyone else at the minute.
[/quote]

As much as people won't like to admit it, that is very true.

Only a handful of players would reject the chance to play for RM if given the opportunity.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Tinto link=topic=35598.msg937410#msg937410 date=1251897870]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937365#msg937365 date=1251896353]
I don't get this.

Seriously, if Rafa hadn't tried to sell him last season, do people think he would have wanted to leave this summer?

NO. So why not acknowledge that it's not all big bad Xabi's fault, beloved Rafa cocked up. And like I said at the time, I wasn't falling for his public pleas for Xabi to stay for a second, I'd put my house on Rafa not once attempting to privately convince Alonso to stay. The public display was to appease the simple fans and gain the maximum transfer fee for Alonso.
[/quote]

If Rafa hadn't tried to sell him, we probably would have been left with a player who in one match would still deliver his wonderful trademark passes but in the next would be squeezed out of the game with ease by your average PL midfield player.

We also would be left with a player that nobody would have wanted even for half the price we eventually sold him for. We'd still be sitting here saying that he's much better than Carrick despite Carrick's form being much much better.

Rafa had good football reasons to sell Xabi back then. You may not agree with them but you should be able to understand them.
[/quote]

Oh I've acknowledged more than once, that if we were going to sell, we've done some brilliant business on him. No other window would have seen us fetching as much as we did for him.

But, the bit that I'm contesting is that Rafa didn't want to sell him and that it was all Alonso wanting to leave. Rafa did want to sell him and he wanted to make as much money as possible from him, fine. Can't blame a manager for that. But I resent the public claims from Rafa that he wanted him to stay and the refusal of people to acknowledge that Alonso wanted to leave because of Rafa's actions last summer.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937372#msg937372 date=1251896550]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937365#msg937365 date=1251896353]
I don't get this.

Seriously, if Rafa hadn't tried to sell him last season, do people think he would have wanted to leave this summer?

NO. So why not acknowledge that it's not all big bad Xabi's fault, beloved Rafa cocked up. And like I said at the time, I wasn't falling for his public pleas for Xabi to stay for a second, I'd put my house on Rafa not once attempting to privately convince Alonso to stay. The public display was to appease the simple fans and gain the maximum transfer fee for Alonso.
[/quote]

I'll tell you exactly why not, Anita - because it's utter rubbish. Rafa was not only entitled but obliged to try and sell him after two highly average seasons AND a lack of professionalism, when he refused a clear instruction to travel, which would and should be a disciplinary offence at any club under any manager.
[/quote]

I agree with JJ.

As to if people don't agree with Rafa's stance or not , that is not the issue.
A chasm opened in the relationship with Rafa and Xabi, and that was the cause of it, Rafa thought that he could rely on Xabi perhaps more than any other person at the club.
Had Xabi not done that Rafa would not have tried to off-load him.
Had Rafa not tried to sell him Xabi would have been more loyal to the club
Rafa was not really trying to keep him, merely up the ante as far as transfer fee went
Anita is right in most of what she says, there is just a difference of opinion as to if Rafa was right in being upset when Xabi stood up to him and refused to travel.

regards
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937411#msg937411 date=1251897914]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=35598.msg937401#msg937401 date=1251897330]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937380#msg937380 date=1251896706]
BLAH BLAH BLAH

Any manager who isn't going to allow a member of their team to witness the birth of their own child is wrong, IMO. That was not a justifiable or defendable action.

I'm not even going to humour the other bit.
[/quote]

THere's a player at a top AFL club (Western Bulldogs I think) who was in the papers here the other day because his wife is going in to have the baby induced this week so that he is available and focused to play in the finals series.

Not condoning it, just stating it.

On another point, let's be honest here... why did Alonso's form improve so markedly last season?

Was it because he was going to be flogged off to whatever team met Liverpool's valuation?

Ultimattely, all Alonso's good form last season brought.... was his ability to pick the team he wanted to go to.

Ironic that we were going to replace him with Gareth Barry...
[/quote]

StevieM, my point is, I can't understand how people can separate what happened last summer with Alonso's eventual departure. How can people say one had nothing to do with the other?

I take your point about his form improving, and am not doubting it. But that's not really the point in question. People seem to think Alonso should have just forgotten about what happened last summer; I don't think that's a realistic thing to ask of a person.

Furthermore, we don't know about the conversations that went on (or didn't, as the case maybe) behind closed doors. Rafa himself mentioned that Alonso's agent spoke to him in March to try to establish what Alonso's position at the club was. So even at that stage in the season, Alonso wasn't sure where he stood, perhaps suggesting Rafa hadn't moved to reassure him of his place at the club after his form had turned. Rafa's claims of he was 'surprised' by this are the kind of things that infuriate me and make me doubt how straight forward he's been about the affair. How it could surprise him when he's just tried to sell him, naturally a player is going to be uncertain about his position.

Rafa grossly mishandled the Alonso situation, not only last summer, but he had a season to recover it. To convince Alonso to stay, I don't think he did, that bit is just my opinion, and people don't have to agree with it. But to say that Alonso leaving this summer had nothing to do with what happened last summer is ludicrous, because that is fact.
[/quote]

It would be ludicrous if anybody was saying that, but no-one is. The argument here is between those, like you, who think Alonso was justified in getting the hump over it and those, like me, who don't.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

I did not get the impression that Rafa wanted to sell this summer at all, unless he was absolutely certain that Aquilani is better for the team.... surely he would have seen how excellent Xabi was last season...

He may well have needed to patch things up with Xabi and failed to do so but we do not fucking know the details really do we... I wouldn´t be surprised.. i would be surprised if Rafa had not stated privately to Alonso that he was required, I think tbh Rafa was quite clear when he stated that he didn't want to sell.

Unless of course the plan was aquilani and silva until the yanks screwed us over.

It may well just be that Xabi decided that living in Madrid and raising his kids at home while playing as a galactico for the new Real team was highly appealing as was the big fat signing on fee and wages.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

...and that his agent liked the sound of a nice fat fee too, so set out to make it look like the club's and the manager's fault that the player was leaving, as they so often do.

None of us knows.  Anita just has to say she does, because it suits what she wants to think.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

Yes, how dare Anita speculate like every other member on this forum. Damn her and her opinion, if it doesn't match mine.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

You just finished saying you resent Rafa claiming he wanted Alonso to stay. In other words you've already decided he's a liar. Not a lot of "speculation" there.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937435#msg937435 date=1251899342]
Yes, how dare Anita speculate like every other member on this forum. Damn her and her opinion, if it doesn't match mine.
[/quote]

Speculation is fine,but you post as if they were fact.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=35598.msg937304#msg937304 date=1251892988]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=35598.msg937297#msg937297 date=1251892013]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=35598.msg937290#msg937290 date=1251891505]
Can't wait to see what happens at Real once he has a loss of form.
[/quote]

We buy him back at half the price and he admits he never should have left.
[/quote]

He'll have to crawl back over broken glass from Madrid, flagellating himself with the LFC stationary gift set as he does so. Then, and only then, I'll take him back as a bench Reserve team option.
[/quote]

I have corrected that for you Doc
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

Very disappointed in Xabi. Was one of my favourite players. Now I have to offer my resignation from the Xabi Alonso fan page on facebook.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937436#msg937436 date=1251899597]
You just finished saying you resent Rafa claiming he wanted Alonso to stay. In other words you've already decided he's a liar. Not a lot of "speculation" there.
[/quote]

I've given reasons as to why I think Rafa has been dishonest in one of my longer posts. I'm not gonna repeat it again.

I understand that some people think Rafa can do no wrong.

I'm happy to agree to disagree.
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

Who are these people who think that Rafa can do no wrong? Are they the people who disagree with those who think that Alonso can do no wrong?


big_headed_tiny_dog_chasing_tail_lg_nwm.gif
 
Re: Alonso on Bentiez...

[quote author=Anita link=topic=35598.msg937446#msg937446 date=1251900487]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=35598.msg937436#msg937436 date=1251899597]
You just finished saying you resent Rafa claiming he wanted Alonso to stay. In other words you've already decided he's a liar. Not a lot of "speculation" there.
[/quote]

I've given reasons as to why I think Rafa has been dishonest in one of my longer posts. I'm not gonna repeat it again.

I understand that some people think Rafa can do no wrong.

I'm happy to agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Actually, many people simply feel that he didn't do everything wrong in THIS instance, Anita.

Xabi says himself (in this very thread) that he knew last year it was time for a change. Yet he didn't hand in a transfer request until 5 minutes ago... Forgive me if I find that a little less than the ultra-professional attitude many are claiming Xabi had through this whole thing.
 
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