Adam banana

[peterhague]

I can only speak for myself but I'd admit that Lallana suffers in my estimation from being yet another in the long line of totally inadequate Rodgers targets and signings.

To have him still making the same mistakes 2 years into the job was way beyond what I was prepared to indulge.

So for what he represents I suppose I do dislike him more than his anaemic contribution warrants.

 

[refugee]

I don't think Morse's table is accurate for any of the also rans. There are a number of players that perform throughout a season (maybe not this season as we've been shit) and they inevitably deserve their high spots in the table.

However, in defeats someone will often get a MOTM without justifying it. New players get MOTM awards by virtue of being new and people voting for them because of the initial excitement (often overlooking understated, often defensive players). Basically people are biased and often form a lot of their opinions based on the hype a player has (or lack of).

 

[keniget]

Yeah. It's not to say that looking at the MOTM table isn't useful, but I don't think it's good enough on it's own.

 

[Frogfish]

I don't think Morse's table is accurate for any of the also rans. There are a number of players that perform throughout a season (maybe not this season as we've been shit) and they inevitably deserve their high spots in the table.

However, in defeats someone will often get a MOTM without justifying it. New players get MOTM awards by virtue of being new and people voting for them because of the initial excitement (often overlooking understated, often defensive players). Basically people are biased and often form a lot of their opinions based on the hype a player has (or lack of).

Sorry but that's a bit of a cop out. If someone is MoM in defeat it doesn't mean they didn't deserve it, as they, in the eyes of the fans, performed to a higher standard than their team-mates.

One of the criticisms I see levelled at Lallana most often is his goal contribution and although it is hardly anything to write home about it is as good as anyone outside of Gerrard (penalty taker) and Sterling (strike rate of 0.234) (and those are nothing special either) yet I bet on a 'goals per minutes played' he probably has the best % in the team.

As I said those that held a grudge before he even arrived wouldn't be voting him up and I certainly don't feel new players hold an advantage over established players, if anything they are just as likely to be voted down because of people's over-expectations.

We should also remember Morse's table is the amalgamation of 6 (I think it is) different fan forums so the bias, for or against, would be expected to balance out due to the sheer numbers involved.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

I think the committee basically have the right idea. It's Rodgers who fucks the whole thing up IMO.

Anyone who seriously thinks we can sign players like Reus and Costa needs to wake up. We're not at that level - we have to have a strategy for building towards that. IMO the focus on high quality younger players - as Rosco says, the Europa League stars - is one such credible route. It's not necessarily the only one, but it's a hell of a lot more likely to work trying to go toe to toe with much richer clubs than us.

Total bollocks PH. Manchester City did it - and who the fuck were they?
Its all about how much.

 

[Halmeister]

What happened to us being after Konoplyanka? He's been the best player for a poor team that has just got to the Europa League final and is available on a free soon. We were desperate to sign him 18 months ago, but what's happened since? He's another one I personally would have signed ahead of Lallana.

 

[Wiberg]

What would the correct price be for Sterling if he wasn't English? Certainly not 50mill...! Isn't it a fact that the few talented British players are about 50% more costly?

When you consider the season Lallana had 25 wasn't that far off. 8 mill is complete bollocks.

I think he will flourish with some decent strikers and a better center, without oldboys players, next season.

 

[peterhague]

Total bollocks PH. Manchester City did it - and who the fuck were they?
Its all about how much.

Er.... the highest spending club England has ever known?

 

[MaBigTip]

As others have hinted at, judging a player on the MOTM rankings is a total farce. And yes, being awarded MOTM in a goalless draw because you were the least shit doesn't mean as much as being MOTM in a win agains a top 4 contender where the MOTM ran the show.

As for stats, they can usually give you a hint - but not the whole story. In this case the numbers indulge his contribution. Unfortunately, and I was one who thought he would justify the fee, he has been very underwhelming. He hasn't been able to influence the team in a positive manner. He doesn't dictate the game, he slows down tempo and he often has trouble linking up with our other attackers. He's missed a bucket load of good chances, a few in some key games.

With that being said, he gets time from me because there is enough talent and effort there to earn it. Lets hope he comes in fit next year and learns how to integrate himself with a more dynamic attack. But his age dictates he doesn't have much time to figure it out.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Er.... the highest spending club England has ever known?

Did you read my post? The part where I said, "it's all about how much. . ."?
Players will go anywhere if you pay enough. Costa would have come to us if we spent more.
It's not rocket science man.

 

[peterhague]

Did you read my post? The part where I said, "it's all about how much. . ."?
Players will go anywhere if you pay enough. Costa would have come to us if we spent more.
It's not rocket science man.

We don't have vaguely enough money to compete with those teams!

In a straight fight it's very likely we'd get battered.

 

[Judge Jules]

As others have hinted at, judging a player on the MOTM rankings is a total farce. And yes, being awarded MOTM in a goalless draw because you were the least shit doesn't mean as much as being MOTM in a win agains a top 4 contender where the MOTM ran the show.

As for stats, they can usually give you a hint - but not the whole story. In this case the numbers indulge his contribution. Unfortunately, and I was one who thought he would justify the fee, he has been very underwhelming. He hasn't been able to influence the team in a positive manner. He doesn't dictate the game, he slows down tempo and he often has trouble linking up with our other attackers. He's missed a bucket load of good chances, a few in some key games.

With that being said, he gets time from me because there is enough talent and effort there to earn it. Lets hope he comes in fit next year and learns how to integrate himself with a more dynamic attack. But his age dictates he doesn't have much time to figure it out.

Using the MOTM table alone would be daft, but dismissing it altogether is equally daft. The size and variety of the sample involved gives it a respectable degree of cred and it's simply lazy to dismiss that out of hand.

Some of the criticism of Lallana in your second para.is OTT as well. If you'd qualified it by saying he hasn't been able to do those things often enough that would be fair but, again, to say he hasn't been able to do them at all is too sweeping and indiscriminate. If he hadn't done it at least some of the time, there'd be no evidence for your summary (which I *do* agree with) that he's got enough about him to be judged over a longer period.

 

[StevieM]

It's very simple- Lallana had just had a very successful season, made the team of the season, was captain if his team, an England international, in his peak years and was on a long term contract.

So, he was at the absolute upper end of his value scale and any fee we paid was always going to reflect these conditions - so pretending his value was £15m or suchlike is pretty pointless. As is comparing him to other players with completely different conditions when they were bought.

I don't think we overpaid. I think we paid as much as Southampton were entitled to squeeze out of us, once we decided he was the player we wanted.

The amount of times people have moaned about not paying the extra few million and then losing out on a player. This time we didn't hold back.

You can see why we wanted him - he's got the technical ability and in that all too brief period in between injuries, when he started to out a run of top performances together - he was our best player.

He's more than capable of justifying the fee we paid for him if he gets a consistent long run in the team - hopefully next season - with some better outlets ahead of us - we'll see that.

 

[keniget]

I don't think we overpaid. I think we paid as much as Southampton were entitled to squeeze out of us, once we decided he was the player we wanted.

That's a very bizarre way of looking at it though.

We bought Lallana at at time when his value will likely never be higher. He was never worth that in the past and will likely never be worth it again. That's the very definition of overpaying for something.

 

[StevieM]

That's a very bizarre way of looking at it though.

We bought Lallana at at time when his value will likely never be higher. He was never worth that in the past and will likely never be worth it again. That's the very definition of overpaying for something.

I'm probably not explaining it right - I guess I'm suggesting that overpaying is when we could have got him cheaper but didn't.

There's no way we were going to get him cheaper last summer.

I don't know if I'm explaining this right [emoji16]

 

[juniormember]

The amount of times people have moaned about not paying the extra few million and then losing out on a player. This time we didn't hold back.

A lot of us complained when we didn't pay the extra millions for the likes of Alves, Costa, Ronaldo, etc.
It gets depressing when we're going the extra mile signing Carroll, Allen, Lallana, Marcovic, Lovren and co.
I think that the only reason we paid for these players is because no one else were really in for them, certainly at those prices. So we haggled, clubs told us to fuck off, and then proceeded to pay at their asking prices. With the other top players, our haggling would allow other clubs to come in and snatch the players. We probably would have paid the asking price in the end for most of these players, just as we did with the players with zero demand.
We need to change our philosophy.

 

[Tinto]

Lallana's ahead of Markovic for the team sheet in those attacking midfielders positions, but already behind Ibe.

Decent option off the bench based on this season's form but nothing more.

 

[keniget]

I'm probably not explaining it right - I guess I'm suggesting that overpaying is when we could have got him cheaper but didn't.

There's no way we were going to get him cheaper last summer.

I don't know if I'm explaining this right [emoji16]

Ah, well I'm not sure that anyone is necessarily suggesting that.

I think the point is that when you find yourself in a situation where a 15M player costs 25M, it's perhaps better to consider another 25M player that will maintain or appreciate in value.

 

[StevieM]

Lallana's ahead of Markovic for the team sheet in those attacking midfielders positions, but already behind Ibe.

Decent option off the bench based on this season's form but nothing more.

I don't think that's entirely true - Ibe has been utilised as a wing back - not as an attacking midfielder.

 

[StevieM]

Ah, well I'm not sure that anyone is necessarily suggesting that.

I think the point is that when you find yourself in a situation that a 15M player costs 25M, it's perhaps better to consider another 25M player that will maintain or appreciate in value.

Well.... have a look at the other £25m'ish attacking midfielders that were bought this season by teams in a similar position to us?

Cuadrado - I suppose Schurrle might count even though he went back to Germany.

Don't know who got picked up around Europe for that price that would have been a realistic option.

 

[Judge Jules]

I'd have been happy to sign Schurrle but I expect Mourinho would never have have allowed him to come to us.

 

[StevieM]

I'd have been happy to sign Schurrle but I expect Mourinho would never have have allowed him to come to us.

How's he done in Germany - I don't watch the Bundesliga much?

 

[keniget]

Well.... have a look at the other £25m'ish attacking midfielders that were bought this season by teams in a similar position to us?

Cuadrado - I suppose Schurrle might count even though he went back to Germany.

Don't know who got picked up around Europe for that price that would have been a realistic option.

Well the obvious one is Griezmann who's had a great season.

It's kinda besides the point though.

 

[peterhague]

We didn't need to sign *any* player in the Lallana mould. That, as much as anything, is the point.

 

[StevieM]

Well the obvious one is Griezmann who's had a great season.

It's kinda besides the point though.

I don't think it is besides the point - the point is £25m is probably around the going rate for a player of Lallana's ability and standing - given that his contract wasn't running down and Southampton weren't trying to sell.

I suppose im saying we paid full price, rather than overpaid - there wasn't a bargain to be made in that deal.

I'd agree that we could have traded up to a higher level - like a Di Maria or we could have traded down to someone much cheaper, like another Asaidi type in the hope he came good.

In the end - I Think Lallana is a decent payer that improved the squad and his value was diminished by injury more than anything.

 

[StevieM]

We didn't need to sign *any* player in the Lallana mould. That, as much as anything, is the point.

I don't know whether I agree with you there either Peter - we'd sent Moses back after his loan had finished and had tried to sign Konoplyanka in the previous window - our only attacking midfielders at the end of the season were Coutinho & Sterling.

It's clear we needed more strength in depth there and were actively looking at it.

 

[Tinto]

In the end - I Think Lallana is a decent payer that improved the squad and his value was diminished by injury more than anything.

I think that many people were hoping that Lallana would be a major addition to the first eleven rather than only a good member of the squad.

 

[peterhague]

I don't know whether I agree with you there either Peter - we'd sent Moses back after his loan had finished and had tried to sign Konoplyanka in the previous window - our only attacking midfielders at the end of the season were Coutinho & Sterling.

It's clear we needed more strength in depth there and were actively looking at it.

We were signing Markovic and Ibe was on the cusp.

Plus the money could've been spent on a striker which would've relieved the need for an attacking threat from midfield.

 

[jexykrodic]

Just think of the extra Doctors and Nurses in the NHS we could have hired with the money wasted.

 

[cloggypop]

We could only field 11 of them though and most of them are shit at footy.